Rereading Nick Spencer's Amazing Spider-Man

[Mister Mets]

Mister Mets I agree with your rating of C+ this was not a good run, IMHO. Heck, if Boomerang had lived I would give it a D or maybe an F.

LOL, I never thought I'd write those words because our opinions on Spidey are typically worlds apart.

To be clear, my rating is for that one issue.

My rating for the first half of the run would be an A-.
Second half is probably going to be worse.

I remember being mildly disappointed with Harry at the time. It just felt like his character has been meddled with enough over the years and I was happy for him to stay as a mostly civillian presence in the books for a while. I also thought that it seemed a bit obvious and had been kind of hoping that he would be a red herring.

I think it's safe to say though that he would have been a far better, more logical option than what eventually transpired.

The execution could still have been better. It's a weird choice to have him disappear from the book when he's going to be a suspect in a larger epic.

[Jman27]

wait mets you gotta add this double page spread the team up was fun


teamup.jpg

[exile001]

Structurally, this is a strange issue because it has to be something that readers can enjoy as part of the larger story, and something that can be skipped by someone who just wants the core issues. This is especially the case since these may be read in different ways. Some readers may go with the order of publication (#50, then #50LR, then #51 and so on.) Some readers might only read the core issues. Some readers might read the core issues in the TPB, and then the tie-ins separately as part of the Last Remains Companion TPB.

Peter's fight with the web warriors is literally filler, but it's satisfying. He's in pain, and put into an absurd situation where he has to leave himself vulnerable by saving their lives, and they just don't care. And the cliffhanger legitimately raises the stakes, so even if this is extra content, it does make the larger story more satisfying (even if my point about the whole damn thing being excessive still stands.)

This is why I don't think Sinister War was released as it was accidentally or due to the rushed finish, at full force Spencer had the exact same problems here as with SW.

I believe they were supposed to mirror each other but did so mostly in being a bit of a mess for the reader.

[Frontier]

I will say Peter's talk with Miles and Gwen and Norman's reaction to Ghost Spider and how that drives Peter's decisions are probably one of the very rare times the other Spiders have felt meaningful or important to Peter's book. Especially in comparison to the rest of the Spencer's run where you could have just as easily written them out.

Of course Gwen being so pro-Peter and like his biggest vocal supporter is kind of out of sorts with her prior characterization/dynamic with him, but it also makes her fit more easily into the book.

[Mister Mets]

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #51-55:



"Last Remains" really makes it clear that the Kindred saga is tied to One More Day. In #51, Peter visits Dr Strange again and he alludes to a growing awareness of a different visit. Half of #53 is a flashback to the epilogue of One More Day, building on the creepy undercurrent of the original and connecting to the idea that Peter's in denial about what's going on with his life. I get how this is going to be really satisfying for people who hate One More Day, and like the idea of Marvel undercutting it, although Marvel also got those readers to pay full price for an issue that was largely a flashback to a comic book they hated. If you're not passionately interested in that one comic book, this storyline, on the latter half of a 22 issue/ nearly 100 dollar saga has to stand on its own. This isn't helped by the way the story alludes to things that Peter doesn't know.



Kindred's dinner plan for Peter is devious. It does connect to one of the highlights of the JM DeMatteis/ Sal Buscema Harry Osborn saga, as does Kindred's unmasking announcement, and Peter's anger at his enemy; it is a major betrayal, but he's not proud of how he responds. It also fits with how outmatched Peter is here. His enemy isn't just absurdly powerful, with the ability to possess others, but he's also willing to do things that are strange and taboo. The allusion to Morlun (he has a bigger role in the companion issues) returning is a bit too much.

The role of the web warriors kinda feels like some Batman story where the Joker captures Batman's sidekicks to try to teach some kind of lesson. I get why Kindred does it, but it's derivative and distracting from the central conflict. #55 brings in Norman and MJ, hinting at their story in the LR one-shots. So that connection is handled well. If you're just reading the main issues, there's a sense of other stuff going on behind the scenes.



Pat Gleason and Mark Bagley draw different issues, although they make the handoff work, as well as the homages to different source material. There seems to be a larger statement here connecting One More Day to other mistakes that Peter has made; however it's a bit cheap when some of these were events earlier in this story. And just when we think it's all ready to end, there's still at least a two part coda. It feels like this whole arc has been 20+ issues of Kindred beating up Spider-Man and saying "One More Day isn't very good" and Spider-Man wondering what One More Day is. Some fans will be excited that Marvel's implicitly criticizing their least favorite story, but there are likely better ways to tell that story.
C-

[Mister Mets]

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #51LR- 54LR:

It's not a great sign that this opens with the Sin-Eater still in business, after the Sins Rising story, that big anniversary issue fight where Norman and Spidey teamed up, and the final revelation in #50. And an overloaded story gets more overloaded when Morlun pops up. Sin-Eater has a new plan that builds on another major spider-event, although that plot works and does come to a satisfying conclusion as he finally gets an overdue defeat.



A big part of the LR issues is an unconventional team-up between Mary Jane and the redeemed Norman Osborn. It does highlight how Mary Jane is so used to weirdness that she can humble Norman Osborn. I'm not a fan of a four page excerpt from Spectacular Spider-Man #200.



A decent sequence depicts the web warriors fighting the New Warriors on a news report, although by #52LR they're back to normal and dealing with the difficulties of cleaning up their own mess in a city that's scared shitless of them. The web warriors then visit Peter's pathway in the astral realm, where they seem some glimpses of Peter's inner life. It's fine but it could have been better. I will say that the Last Rites companion issues do see more fun than the main book.
B-

[Mister Mets]

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #56-57:



#56 is the first half of the Last Rites post-mortem, as we get a sense of how two of Spider-Man's greatest enemies worked together and the delicate trick Norman Osborn is trying to play. It's a bit of an infodump, but not a terrible one. I'm glad they've kept this take on Norman.



#57 is less satisfying. Peter has obligatory scenes with MJ and the web warriors. He has a different explanation for something that happened in #50, claiming that he intentionally left Norman for the Sin-Eater, a big reveal that didn't land very well. His frustrations at the Osborns are understandable, but it's transparently obvious he's in the wrong and will have to pay the consequences for that. The web warriors become a team, another moment that doesn't land.

And it's still not over. It's been 21 issues, several of which were extra-sized. And the last pages of the post-Mortem cliffhanger have Kindred doing something new, and Peter realizes it's not over.



The grade for these two issues is a D. The overall grade for Sins Rising/ Last Rites and all the tie-in issues is a C. There's some good stuff but it's a mess.

[Huntsman Spider]

Alas, yeah. As invested as I was in seeing how this would resolve itself, this was the point where the run started going downhill. However, I do think it would have had a (slightly) stronger finish if Nick Spencer had been allowed to let Peter (and Mary Jane) remember what really happened and what he really did in One More Day, then go forward addressing the consequences of that, of letting his desperation and/or his anger do his thinking and decision-making for him and rope him into rash, regrettable actions.

[exile001]

Kindred's dinner plan for Peter is devious. It does connect to one of the highlights of the JM DeMatteis/ Sal Buscema Harry Osborn saga, as does Kindred's unmasking announcement, and Peter's anger at his enemy; it is a major betrayal, but he's not proud of how he responds. It also fits with how outmatched Peter is here. His enemy isn't just absurdly powerful, with the ability to possess others, but he's also willing to do things that are strange and taboo.

Here's where I lost my remaining interest in Kindred, as I don't really enjoy the supernatural (especially traditional Christian mythos) as a major aspect of my Spider-man books. That's personal preference, if you dig it that's fine.

Up to now I was taking it as Kindred was using Mysterio tech to mess everyone around. Some of this can also be waved away by the crazy ending to the run.

I felt Harry "killing" Peter again and again wasn't making a point. If anything, it was removing tension. I was hoping for something more psychologically challenging than a few corpses (gross) and a beat down while Harry continued to spew the riddles and veiled statements.

The reveal of Harry was the only true "surprise," we all saw it coming, but I was frustrated that we still had no real idea what was going on and what, if anything, it was leading to.

That said, even though Spencer had specifically told us earlier in the run he wouldn't do it, I was genuinely worried that he was going to kill off MJ. He gets points for making me legitimately care.

I did kinda like Peter's "I am fucking done with the Osborns and ALL their bullshit" shtick he took for a little while after this. You really can't blame the guy.

[Lukmendes]

Alas, yeah. As invested as I was in seeing how this would resolve itself, this was the point where the run started going downhill. However, I do think it would have had a (slightly) stronger finish if Nick Spencer had been allowed to let Peter (and Mary Jane) remember what really happened and what he really did in One More Day, then go forward addressing the consequences of that, of letting his desperation and/or his anger do his thinking and decision-making for him and rope him into rash, regrettable actions.

We don't even know if he was supposed to remember those things by that point, since Last Remains is made to make Spidey and Kindred have a direct confrontation, but what else we don't know.

It's also implied MJ remembers OMD **** when she says that Spidey doesn't remember, though, it could just be that she was being reasonable and telling Kindred that Spidey doesn't remember because it was obvious he didn't:





(ASM#55 vol 5)

"He's death."

Man, Kindred's **** always sounded dumb, and it aged like milk.

Not that I'm saying villains have to sound rational, but he's barely called out on how much he makes no fucking sense, and Sinister War only made that even worse.

Here's where I lost my remaining interest in Kindred, as I don't really enjoy the supernatural (especially traditional Christian mythos) as a major aspect of my Spider-man books. That's personal preference, if you dig it that's fine.

Up to now I was taking it as Kindred was using Mysterio tech to mess everyone around. Some of this can also be waved away by the crazy ending to the run.

That would be impossible with the kind of tech Mysterio has, a tri-Sentinel army is too much, unless it was somehow an illusion or whatever lol.

Any chance of it being technology was gone once Sin Eater came back, started to steal powers and forced his own guilt into other people too, or at least, it's definitely not the kind of tech Mysterio has.

I did kinda like Peter's "I am fucking done with the Osborns and ALL their bullshit" shtick he took for a little while after this. You really can't blame the guy.

With how much they blame him for small screwups he caused to them, when most of the major problems were their own doing, yeah... Really can't blame him.

Ultimately people are responsible for their own lives, and you help out others because you think it's right or whatever, but Osborns basically expect Spidey to take the blame and fix their own screw-ups lol.

[Celgress]

The Kindred concept had a ton of potential that was wasted by the reveal a la Hobgoblin back in the 1980s. I do wonder if Marvel Editorial lacked the collective balls to make Kindred someone more shocking and interesting such as actual Harry, Captain Stacy, or OG Gwen Stacy?

[Kevinroc]

The Kindred concept had a ton of potential that was wasted by the reveal a la Hobgoblin back in the 1980s. I do wonder if Marvel Editorial lacked the collective balls to make Kindred someone more shocking and interesting such as actual Harry, Captain Stacy, or OG Gwen Stacy?

Cebulski admitted that Marvel Editorial stepped in with regards to the end of Spencer's run. It does throw a lot of questions as to what Spencer originally intended and what Editorial didn't allow.

[Celgress]

Cebulski admitted that Marvel Editorial stepped in with regards to the end of Spencer's run. It does throw a lot of questions as to what Spencer originally intended and what Editorial didn't allow.

Indeed he did; which is why I'm so curious about what appears to be an obvious left turn later in the run in regards to Kindred's identity. I hope someday we learn the entire story a la The Life of Reilly Blog.

[Lukmendes]

The Kindred concept had a ton of potential that was wasted by the reveal a la Hobgoblin back in the 1980s. I do wonder if Marvel Editorial lacked the collective balls to make Kindred someone more shocking and interesting such as actual Harry, Captain Stacy, or OG Gwen Stacy?

George would be really bad considering he didn't have a problem with Spidey before, didn't even blame Spidey for his own death.

Gwen would work better, since she hated Spidey a lot, hell, it could be funny if Gwen as Kindred only started to act now because she is the Gwen who was resurrected in Clone Conspiracy, though in that case an explanation would be needed for why she's okay with Spidey during it, and going for "She was lying" would be whatever, but then again, it's made clear that characters who are resurrected via Clone Conspiracy's cloning method don't remember afterlife.

I'm not sure if Gwen would work well though, it'd work better than George but that's not saying much.

Cebulski admitted that Marvel Editorial stepped in with regards to the end of Spencer's run. It does throw a lot of questions as to what Spencer originally intended and what Editorial didn't allow.

I think a scene that was cut is related to Mysterio, he said in ASM#71 vol 5 that his big scene is approaching:



In Sinister War itself, the biggest thing he does is disguise himself as Black Cat.

Indeed he did; which is why I'm so curious about what appears to be an obvious left turn later in the run in regards to Kindred's identity. I hope someday we learn the entire story a la The Life of Reilly Blog.

It does seem that at the latest Kindred was planned to be two people by Last Remains, ASM#50.LR shows flashbacks to previous issues (ASM#50 and ASM#31) and the colors are consistent with what was shown.

On the other hand, Norman never notes a difference between brown Kindred and purple Kindred, and the one who talked with him was dressed in purple, while the one who was defeated and imprisoned after Last Remains is brown, so maybe Kindred wasn't meant to be two different people, or maybe they were, but were controlled by Kindred anyways.

It is possible that Kindred was always meant to be Harry without the clone nonsense, and change of plans forced Spencer to make the Harry who dies to be a good person, so we got the convoluted "Kindred is a Harry AI back when he was evil who may or may not be controlled by Mephisto" nonsense, it'd certainly explain why the hell Kindred has memories of being in hell lol.

So yeah, it's a headache, and at this point convoluted identities for villains is a tradition in ASM lol.

[Webhead]

There's also what Kindred used to say, "it's not who I am, it's what I want". But then the last couple issues dwell exclusively on just what the heck Kindred is/are, and #74 contradicts #73 (first the twins are vessels and then they're themselves).