Rereading Nick Spencer's Amazing Spider-Man

[exile001]

That would be impossible with the kind of tech Mysterio has, a tri-Sentinel army is too much, unless it was somehow an illusion or whatever lol.

I don't specifically mean just Mysterio tech. Spidey has a whole host of villains whose tech could have been purloined by Kindred. Robot Master was under Kindred before he was killed (rekilled?).

But back then I was doing all the mental gymnastics hoping it wouldn't be something as dull and cliche as a devil from Hell with everything hand-waved by undefined supernatural abilities. Which sadly it was (but also an A.I. and clones).

Any chance of it being technology was gone once Sin Eater came back, started to steal powers and forced his own guilt into other people too, or at least, it's definitely not the kind of tech Mysterio has.

I even thought this could have been somewhat explained by Mr Negatives abilities, but by this point I was accepting it was probably going to be mystic bollocks and honestly I was really enjoying the Sin Eater arc.

However, I would have ultimately been cool with if it got rid of Mephisto and his influence from Spider-man comics forever. Lol.

[Huntsman Spider]

I don't specifically mean just Mysterio tech. Spidey has a whole host of villains whose tech could have been purloined by Kindred. Robot Master was under Kindred before he was killed (rekilled?).

But back then I was doing all the mental gymnastics hoping it wouldn't be something as dull and cliche as a devil from Hell with everything hand-waved by undefined supernatural abilities. Which sadly it was (but also an A.I. and clones).



I even thought this could have been somewhat explained by Mr Negatives abilities, but by this point I was accepting it was probably going to be mystic bollocks and honestly I was really enjoying the Sin Eater arc.

However, I would have ultimately been cool with if it got rid of Mephisto and his influence from Spider-man comics forever. Lol.

That is pretty much how it should have ended, with Peter remembering what Mephisto tricked him into giving up by playing on his desperation to avoid the guilt of being "responsible" for Aunt May's impending death because he publicly revealed himself as Spider-Man in Civil War and made everyone he knew and loved targets for his many enemies and beating Mephisto so badly (with Mary Jane assisting through the power of love) Mephisto would scurry as far away from anything to do with Spider-Man as he could manage. Would have been satisfying.

[Kevinroc]

That is pretty much how it should have ended, with Peter remembering what Mephisto tricked him into giving up by playing on his desperation to avoid the guilt of being "responsible" for Aunt May's impending death because he publicly revealed himself as Spider-Man in Civil War and made everyone he knew and loved targets for his many enemies and beating Mephisto so badly (with Mary Jane assisting through the power of love) Mephisto would scurry as far away from anything to do with Spider-Man as he could manage. Would have been satisfying.

I think it's pretty clear that Editorial won't allow that. Because they view it as "the path to marriage" and that door must remain forever closed.

[Huntsman Spider]

I think it's pretty clear that Editorial won't allow that. Because they view it as "the path to marriage" and that door must remain forever closed.

Because they think it's a dead end for the character, which is nine different levels of B.S.

[Lukmendes]

There's also what Kindred used to say, "it's not who I am, it's what I want".

It's also funny Kindred said in ASM#44 that "It's not who I am, it's what I want", when earlier he made a bunch of Stromm and a bunch Tri-Sentinels say this:





(ASM#5 vol 5).

Decide yourself Kindred lol.

But then the last couple issues dwell exclusively on just what the heck Kindred is/are, and #74 contradicts #73 (first the twins are vessels and then they're themselves).

I saw that as AI Harry losing control over them for some reason.

I don't specifically mean just Mysterio tech. Spidey has a whole host of villains whose tech could have been purloined by Kindred. Robot Master was under Kindred before he was killed (rekilled?).

But back then I was doing all the mental gymnastics hoping it wouldn't be something as dull and cliche as a devil from Hell with everything hand-waved by undefined supernatural abilities. Which sadly it was (but also an A.I. and clones).

Honestly, by the time Sins Rising happens, it can't really be anything else but magic.

Like, at best, you could say Sin Eater's power steal is a modified version of Regent's tech, but even that is pushing it because of how different they work, since Regent's stuff requires people to stay imprisoned, and the mental state it leaves people, yeah...

I even thought this could have been somewhat explained by Mr Negatives abilities, but by this point I was accepting it was probably going to be mystic bollocks and honestly I was really enjoying the Sin Eater arc.

Problem is that he was able to steal powers and screw with someone's mind before he got Mr. Negative's powers.

Unfortunately in the end it was poorly defined magic, which, considering how Spencer used the cosmic cube in Secret Empire, it's not surprising, hell, there's even this ridiculous moment:



Using magic through a fucking recording... Terrible, just terrible lol.

Spencer's talent is writing characters, his run was the first time in a long time Spidey had the "right" voice I feel, but whenever magic was used the quality dropped, and part of the reason why I find Kindred annoying is because his powers are basically "Can do everything for no reason, except shapeshift" lol.

However, I would have ultimately been cool with if it got rid of Mephisto and his influence from Spider-man comics forever. Lol.

And unfortunately we got the opposite, unless Marvel decides to ignore the end of the run with the whole "Mephisto made a deal with Norman and directly or indirectly caused him to become Green Goblin" lol.

That is pretty much how it should have ended, with Peter remembering what Mephisto tricked him into giving up by playing on his desperation to avoid the guilt of being "responsible" for Aunt May's impending death because he publicly revealed himself as Spider-Man in Civil War and made everyone he knew and loved targets for his many enemies and beating Mephisto so badly (with Mary Jane assisting through the power of love) Mephisto would scurry as far away from anything to do with Spider-Man as he could manage. Would have been satisfying.

Spidey beating Mephisto at all is ridiculous, he can outsmart Mephisto, but not defeat him in a direct fight.

Also why does everyone ignore the part that if the deal with Mephisto is undone everyone would remember that Peter is Spidey? Lol.

Because they think it's a dead end for the character, which is nine different levels of B.S.

I wonder if they actually believe that lol.

It seems they overall just parrot the same excuses that were parroted before, "Spidey must remain relatable" or whatever, and it happens often enough, and is said by different people, that I think it's nothing but a convenient excuse to keep the marriage away from ASM.

[Huntsman Spider]

It's also funny Kindred said in ASM#44 that "It's not who I am, it's what I want", when earlier he made a bunch of Stromm and a bunch Tri-Sentinels say this:





(ASM#5 vol 5).

Decide yourself Kindred lol.



I saw that as AI Harry losing control over them for some reason.



Honestly, by the time Sins Rising happens, it can't really be anything else but magic.

Like, at best, you could say Sin Eater's power steal is a modified version of Regent's tech, but even that is pushing it because of how different they work, since Regent's stuff requires people to stay imprisoned, and the mental state it leaves people, yeah...



Problem is that he was able to steal powers and screw with someone's mind before he got Mr. Negative's powers.

Unfortunately in the end it was poorly defined magic, which, considering how Spencer used the cosmic cube in Secret Empire, it's not surprising, hell, there's even this ridiculous moment:



Using magic through a fucking recording... Terrible, just terrible lol.

Spencer's talent is writing characters, his run was the first time in a long time Spidey had the "right" voice I feel, but whenever magic was used the quality dropped, and part of the reason why I find Kindred annoying is because his powers are basically "Can do everything for no reason, except shapeshift" lol.



And unfortunately we got the opposite, unless Marvel decides to ignore the end of the run with the whole "Mephisto made a deal with Norman and directly or indirectly caused him to become Green Goblin" lol.



Spidey beating Mephisto at all is ridiculous, he can outsmart Mephisto, but not defeat him in a direct fight.

Also why does everyone ignore the part that if the deal with Mephisto is undone everyone would remember that Peter is Spidey? Lol.



I wonder if they actually believe that lol.

It seems they overall just parrot the same excuses that were parroted before, "Spidey must remain relatable" or whatever, and it happens often enough, and is said by different people, that I think it's nothing but a convenient excuse to keep the marriage away from ASM.

Hmm, at this point, it probably would take a massive event, with everyone Mephisto's deals have screwed over in the past joining forces to take him down for good. Since that list does include Ghost Rider (Johnny Blaze) and Doctor Doom, I could see either or both of them lending Spidey and MJ a hand, not necessarily out of friendship or respect, but more for the sake of really laying a hurting on Mephisto, essentially using the web-slinger to get their proverbial pound of flesh. However, I could see Johnny having some more sympathy for Peter and MJ in light of his own Faustian bargain with Mephisto ultimately costing him happiness with his wife Roxanne and their children, to say nothing of their lives. As for the part where everyone would remember again that Peter is Spider-Man, that could easily be fixed if Clea Strange happens to be in a good mood. On your last point, though, that is pretty much exactly what's been coming from Marvel regarding the Spider-Marriage --- a convenient, sensible-sounding excuse that increasingly rings hollow.

[Lukmendes]

Hmm, at this point, it probably would take a massive event, with everyone Mephisto's deals have screwed over in the past joining forces to take him down for good. Since that list does include Ghost Rider (Johnny Blaze) and Doctor Doom, I could see either or both of them lending Spidey and MJ a hand, not necessarily out of friendship or respect, but more for the sake of really laying a hurting on Mephisto, essentially using the web-slinger to get their proverbial pound of flesh. However, I could see Johnny having some more sympathy for Peter and MJ in light of his own Faustian bargain with Mephisto ultimately costing him happiness with his wife Roxanne and their children, to say nothing of their lives.

This doesn't actually need a massive crossover, Marvel would likely make one, but no big story needs this, specially something as personal as this.

Immortal Hulk is also evidence that a story can be told without crossovers too, and hell, crossovers would cheapen it, specially the last issues (Which would be specially noticeable since issue#50 is kinda eh, it'd probably be even worse with a crossover).

As for the part where everyone would remember again that Peter is Spider-Man, that could easily be fixed if Clea Strange happens to be in a good mood.

OMIT itself never bothered to explain how the hell Strange kept his identity hidden when it was recorded in newspapers and whatnot too lol.

It worked at first because the spell made it so everyone can't make a connection between Spidey and Peter unless they see him unmasking, but that's gone after Spider-Island.

But hey, such mind wipes always have this plot hole anyways, Stark managed to do it a few years before Civil War, Purple Children also did it for Daredevil in DD#19 and 20 vol 5

[exile001]

But hey, such mind wipes always have this plot hole anyways, Stark managed to do it a few years before Civil War, Purple Children also did it for Daredevil in DD#19 and 20 vol 5

Sometimes, between runs and with no explanation, people just forget or stop caring that Steve Rogers in Cap. Lol.

[Mister Mets]

Small heads up. I'm going on vacation tomorrow with spotty internet, so I'll finish commentary on the run when I get back.

Here's where I lost my remaining interest in Kindred, as I don't really enjoy the supernatural (especially traditional Christian mythos) as a major aspect of my Spider-man books. That's personal preference, if you dig it that's fine.

Up to now I was taking it as Kindred was using Mysterio tech to mess everyone around. Some of this can also be waved away by the crazy ending to the run.

I felt Harry "killing" Peter again and again wasn't making a point. If anything, it was removing tension. I was hoping for something more psychologically challenging than a few corpses (gross) and a beat down while Harry continued to spew the riddles and veiled statements.

The reveal of Harry was the only true "surprise," we all saw it coming, but I was frustrated that we still had no real idea what was going on and what, if anything, it was leading to.

That said, even though Spencer had specifically told us earlier in the run he wouldn't do it, I was genuinely worried that he was going to kill off MJ. He gets points for making me legitimately care.

I did kinda like Peter's "I am fucking done with the Osborns and ALL their bullshit" shtick he took for a little while after this. You really can't blame the guy.

I have to agree I'm not a fan of the supernatural stuff here. It's not a great match for Spidey.

The Kindred concept had a ton of potential that was wasted by the reveal a la Hobgoblin back in the 1980s. I do wonder if Marvel Editorial lacked the collective balls to make Kindred someone more shocking and interesting such as actual Harry, Captain Stacy, or OG Gwen Stacy?

By all accounts it's the reveal that Nick Spencer was building towards.

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/did-...ncer-intended/

The main difference is the story would've been longer.

That is pretty much how it should have ended, with Peter remembering what Mephisto tricked him into giving up by playing on his desperation to avoid the guilt of being "responsible" for Aunt May's impending death because he publicly revealed himself as Spider-Man in Civil War and made everyone he knew and loved targets for his many enemies and beating Mephisto so badly (with Mary Jane assisting through the power of love) Mephisto would scurry as far away from anything to do with Spider-Man as he could manage. Would have been satisfying.

If it had ended with the reversal of One More Day, that wouldn't fix the problems with the issues so far.

[Lukmendes]

Sometimes, between runs and with no explanation, people just forget or stop caring that Steve Rogers in Cap. Lol.

"No one cared who I was until I put on the mask" .

I have to agree I'm not a fan of the supernatural stuff here. It's not a great match for Spidey.

Even if magic stuff worked better with Spidey, the bad writing with the magic itself did it no favors, Kindred's powers seemingly have no real limits, he does whatever the plot requires, is stronger than Spidey, can give someone else the power to steal powers... Just bad shit overall.

By all accounts it's the reveal that Nick Spencer was building towards.

https://bleedingcool.com/comics/did-...ncer-intended/

The main difference is the story would've been longer.

Oh boy, a mystery that dragged up until Last Remains would drag for even longer...

Also who did they ask about this anyways? 'Cause someone from editorial could lie and say "Yeah, nothing was changed, this was 100% Spencer's plan" lol.

If it was Spencer's plan though, then he screwed up some weird stuff, like Strange just forgetting about whatever the hell is up with Spidey's soul, which was a big plot point considering it's why Strange stops helping Spidey in ASM#51 vol 5 (He was still gonna help, but didn't want Spidey getting involved), and he's asking about it to Mephisto in ASM#60, and it's still talked about in Sinister War#1.

Not that this means OMD would be solved, reversed, addressed, amplified, done again, or whatever, but this plot point is just awkwardly forgotten at the very end, this could be Spencer screwing up, Secret Empire had similar issues, but I doubt that's only his screw up.

[Mister Mets]

Back from vacation. Got to do some reading on the plane.

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #58-59:

After the lengthy and sprawling Kindred saga, it's nice to have a shorter storyline. It also builds pretty well on all's that came before. Martin Li is a little bit different in the aftermath of his role in Last Rites, and does have a character arc here even if the tale ends a bit quickly. Kingpin's still up to something. Peter has uncomfortable discussions with Liz Allen in the aftermath of Harry becoming a villain again, and Norman's still up to something. Normie's response to all of this is a highlight. I do especially like Ferreira's take on Spider-Man. The other parts are fine- it's a bit dark, but his Spidey pops.



One highlight of Nick Spencer's run is his take on Spider-Man and Aunt May. As far as she's concerned, they're acquaintances and he seems to be trying to make the world a better place. The Inner Demons are among the best henchman characters in the Spider-Man comics, and it's fun to see Spider-Man acknowledge that he just likes beating them up.
B

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #60:
This one-off reminds me of classic conversation issues, including Bagley's earlier Ultimate Spider-Man #13, which remains the gold standard. MJ's role here makes a lot of sense, getting Peter to open up using an acting technique. It's a practice that fits her character, that I believe she would introduce to Peter at this time, and leads to some moving revelations about what Peter's going through.



But it seems like more Kindred, after 20+ issues. The course correction on Peter's outburst about wanting noting to do with the Osborns is appreciated, although one question is how much credit a story should get for reversing a dumb move, when it's better not to do it in the first place. I can understand an argument that the earlier scene was about Peter being angry, during a difficult time, but it was annoying, especially at the climax to such an overlong and flawed story.

[Mister Mets]

One question I'm reflecting on is whether I'm penalizing this issue for the context. I might very well give this a higher grade if the showdown with Kindred was better and shorter (IE- a well-reviewed five-issue arc) but since this is all about the aftermath of Sins Rising/ Last Rites, it's not something that works on its own and it is more difficult to recommend when the set-up was so flawed.

It's not promising when the story opens with Kindred saying it's not over yet, and ends with Doctor Strange visiting Mephisto. To the extent possible, I'm trying to keep an open mind on what comes next, as it might read better when the earlier issues are fresh in my mind.
B

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #61-62:



It took long enough for Peter to find a job, although this is a fun dynamic with Spider-Man working with Jonah, and actually getting paid. The Gog instagram account is cute, and I like the idea of Peter with a pet, especially this pet.



There's a clever twist with the new costume as Spidey goes the Kickstarter/ Patreon route, and fans want some input. It's a modern take on the character's classic struggles finding ways to support himself. I also like seeing Patrick Gleason drawing something that isn't grim. This storyline by the artist of Last Rites shows his range, that he can do dark and supernatural, in addition to something more lighthearted.

I was worried it would be similar to Slott's Big Time stuff, but this is more of a temporary effort like the spider-mobile. The material's a bit light for two issues, so the rest of it is some developments with Robbie Robertson. Nick Spencer is using him more and better than any spider-writer since the '98 relaunch.
B+

[Matt Rat]

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #60:
This one-off reminds me of classic conversation issues, including Bagley's earlier Ultimate Spider-Man #13, which remains the gold standard. MJ's role here makes a lot of sense, getting Peter to open up using an acting technique. It's a practice that fits her character, that I believe she would introduce to Peter at this time, and leads to some moving revelations about what Peter's going through.



But it seems like more Kindred, after 20+ issues. The course correction on Peter's outburst about wanting noting to do with the Osborns is appreciated, although one question is how much credit a story should get for reversing a dumb move, when it's better not to do it in the first place. I can understand an argument that the earlier scene was about Peter being angry, during a difficult time, but it was annoying, especially at the climax to such an overlong and flawed story.

I do think it's become consensus issue 60 is regarded as the peak of Spencer. On top of it being a gold standard Peter/MJ issue, the ending with Strange and Mephisto legit broke the internet. For a brief moment in time, it felt like Marvel were finally going to make the Spider-Man story important again, stop dragging their feet along, and implement legitimate forward-thinking change.

It's kind of like when an internet darling becomes world champion in WWE...and then the next few months do nothing but prove that it's still WWE.

[exile001]

Firstly, welcome back! I hope you had a good holiday.

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #60:
This one-off reminds me of classic conversation issues, including Bagley's earlier Ultimate Spider-Man #13, which remains the gold standard. MJ's role here makes a lot of sense, getting Peter to open up using an acting technique. It's a practice that fits her character, that I believe she would introduce to Peter at this time, and leads to some moving revelations about what Peter's going through.

But it seems like more Kindred, after 20+ issues. The course correction on Peter's outburst about wanting noting to do with the Osborns is appreciated, although one question is how much credit a story should get for reversing a dumb move, when it's better not to do it in the first place. I can understand an argument that the earlier scene was about Peter being angry, during a difficult time, but it was annoying, especially at the climax to such an overlong and flawed story.

I'm in the minority here but I disliked this issue.

It felt really forced. Also, why wouldn't MJ have tried this years ago.

As a way of getting Peter to voice what he's going through, to me this just showed an inability of the writer to naturally bring this out in Peter's internal voice in the issues themselves. He'd had 59 to this point. It's a complaint I had from the start of the run where Pete and Spidey completely split but we learn nothing about them from it. Peter's inner monologue is just reacting to/describing what's going on without giving a sense of how that's actually affecting him. It lacks depth.

So this came across as covering a weakness in the writing. Like Spencer needed Peter to be in a specific emotional place but hadn't taken the time to guide us there with him so was essentially doing an exposition dump.

It also highlighted that Bagley's art isn't what it used to be (though his staging is fantastic).

Amazing Spider-Man Volume 5 #61-62:

It took long enough for Peter to find a job, although this is a fun dynamic with Spider-Man working with Jonah, and actually getting paid. The Gog instagram account is cute, and I like the idea of Peter with a pet, especially this pet.

I know I sound as though I don't like fun (I promise, I do!*) but something this dumb and out of character needs more justification than a few pages and Peter just going along with it.

This is so wildly out of character for independent Peter to put on an all-seeing, all-recording, smart phone suit made by people he doesn't know for a purpose he doesn't know introduced out of the blue by Jonah and Norah Winters who have proven to be untrustworthy (intentionally or not). Just none of it adds up.

Also, it's so brief I wonder what was even the point? It felt like Spencer was determined to fit this in somewhere even if, realistically, he should have cut it.

I probably would have liked this as a miniseries, maybe vaguely out of continuity, or something where Peter got the specs and built it himself. Something that felt less like a writer strong-arming a situation that doesn't fit because he wants a lighthearted, fun moment before the next big story.

I believe this was around the point we became aware Spencer was leaving sooner than expected which makes it more of a head scratcher.

LOVED Gleason's art. Why he still hasn't been made lead ASM artists I do not know.

*for example, I loved everything about Gog in this run.

[Huntsman Spider]

Firstly, welcome back! I hope you had a good holiday.



I'm in the minority here but I disliked this issue.

It felt really forced. Also, why wouldn't MJ have tried this years ago.

As a way of getting Peter to voice what he's going through, to me this just showed an inability of the writer to naturally bring this out in Peter's internal voice in the issues themselves. He'd had 59 to this point. It's a complaint I had from the start of the run where Pete and Spidey completely split but we learn nothing about them from it. Peter's inner monologue is just reacting to/describing what's going on without giving a sense of how that's actually affecting him. It lacks depth.

So this came across as covering a weakness in the writing. Like Spencer needed Peter to be in a specific emotional place but hadn't taken the time to guide us there with him so was essentially doing an exposition dump.

It also highlighted that Bagley's art isn't what it used to be (though his staging is fantastic).



I know I sound as though I don't like fun (I promise, I do!*) but something this dumb and out of character needs more justification than a few pages and Peter just going along with it.

This is so wildly out of character for independent Peter to put on an all-seeing, all-recording, smart phone suit made by people he doesn't know for a purpose he doesn't know introduced out of the blue by Jonah and Norah Winters who have proven to be untrustworthy (intentionally or not). Just none of it adds up.

Also, it's so brief I wonder what was even the point? It felt like Spencer was determined to fit this in somewhere even if, realistically, he should have cut it.

I probably would have liked this as a miniseries, maybe vaguely out of continuity, or something where Peter got the specs and built it himself. Something that felt less like a writer strong-arming a situation that doesn't fit because he wants a lighthearted, fun moment before the next big story.

I believe this was around the point we became aware Spencer was leaving sooner than expected which makes it more of a head scratcher.

LOVED Gleason's art. Why he still hasn't been made lead ASM artists I do not know.

*for example, I loved everything about Gog in this run.

You raised good points, even if I did generally like those issues when they first came out. As for the livestreaming suit, I figured the Chameleon gave Norah Winters the resources to have it made for Spider-Man, given their secret alliance some issues back, though it was disappointing that aside from Spider-Man ultimately ditching the suit for his own reasons, he never did discover that connection between Norah and Chameleon. Could have been pretty epic on a personal level, not just in terms of Peter's reaction, but also Jonah's, seeing that someone who claimed herself as his heir and successor in the modern digital age had even less journalistic scruples than himself at his Spidey-hating worst. After all, Jonah might have created a few of those villains himself or at least bankrolled their creation, but he was doing so out of the belief that he was fighting a greater evil in Spider-Man, whereas Norah just seemed to care only about getting big scoops.