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  1. #46
    The Kid 80sbaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyped78 View Post
    Why were Black Panther, Captain Marvel and Shang Chi "woke"? Were we supposed to have a white Black Panther or a male Captain Marvel? No, it wouldn't have made any sense.

    If anything, Black Panther, Shang Chi etc. show that "raceswapping" is mostly pointless.
    Race swapping isn't the only way to be "woke." To most people using that term, it means anything not involving a straight, white male lead.

  2. #47
    Astonishing Member hyped78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    Race swapping isn't the only way to be "woke." To most people using that term, it means anything not involving a straight, white male lead.
    Yes, and I have absolutely no problem with having women leads, LGBTQ+ leads, black/ asian/ latino/ etc. leads - as long as the movies, TV shows, comic books, video games are of good quality, I don't really care if the lead is this or that.

    What I personally don't like is what someone on this thread referred to as "tokenism" (or something like that). Why would you change Prof. X, a character that everyone recognizes as a white bald man in a wheelchair, with something else? In my view, that only helps to drive criticism, controversy and division instead of promoting diversity and inclusion.

    And hey, Esposito is a hell of an actor, it's not about that!

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyped78 View Post
    Yes, and I have absolutely no problem with having women leads, LGBTQ+ leads, black/ asian/ latino/ etc. leads - as long as the movies, TV shows, comic books, video games are of good quality, I don't really care if the lead is this or that.

    What I personally don't like is what someone on this thread referred to as "tokenism" (or something like that). Why would you change Prof. X, a character that everyone recognizes as a white bald man in a wheelchair, with something else? In my view, that only helps to drive criticism, controversy and division instead of promoting diversity and inclusion.

    And hey, Esposito is a hell of an actor, it's not about that!
    Your last sentence answers the question as to why. They'd cast him because he's a great actor, period. That's not "tokenism."

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member hyped78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    Your last sentence answers the question as to why. They'd cast him because he's a great actor, period. That's not "tokenism."
    Yes, but I personally don't agree with that type of choice, the same reason I wouldn't agree with e.g. Ben Affleck as Black Panther.

    I don't like "woke" stuff (this: "To most people using that term, it means anything not involving a straight, white male lead" - this way of thinking is completely silly, IMO) but I realize that this is a very touchy subject and I don't want to offend anyone.
    Last edited by hyped78; 07-18-2022 at 03:56 AM.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyped78 View Post
    Yes, but I personally don't agree with that type of choice, the same reason I wouldn't agree with e.g. Ben Affleck as Black Panther
    Well you agreeing with it wasn't what we were discussing. You brought up tokenism and asked why would they do this.

    Also, Black Panther being black is intrinsic to his character. Xavier's race isn't so that's not a good analogy at all.

  6. #51
    Astonishing Member hyped78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    Also, Black Panther being black is intrinsic to his character. Xavier's race isn't so that's not a good analogy at all.
    The character has been shown as a white, bald man since 1963. What you wrote feels like a double standard. I mean, let's go ahead and make Prof. X gay as well - being straight is not intrinsic to his character. Or Prof. X as a woman, because why not?

    Obviously I'll watch all the Marvel movies and tv series regardless of whatever they choose to do.
    Last edited by hyped78; 07-18-2022 at 04:03 AM.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyped78 View Post
    The character has been shown as a white, bald man since 1963. What you wrote feels like a double standard.
    Maybe if you ignore historical context and the actual character, sure. But tell me, what about Xavier changes if he's black instead of white? Nothing. Xavier being paralyzed is more important to his character than his race.

    What changes about BP if he's white instead of black? Well his country being isolationist African country that was never colonized, as well as his status as the first black superhero is gone. That's a pretty big deal and not the same for Xavier.

  8. #53
    Astonishing Member hyped78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    Maybe if you ignore historical context and the actual character, sure. But tell me, what about Xavier changes if he's black instead of white? Nothing. Xavier being paralyzed is more important to his character than his race.

    What changes about BP if he's white instead of black? Well his country being isolationist African country that was never colonized, as well as his status as the first black superhero is gone. That's a pretty big deal and not the same for Xavier.
    Yes, Black Panther needs to be black (it's even in the name) because, well, quite frankly, a lot of older Marvel non caucasian characters were created with racial and gender stereotypes that were "acceptable" in the 60s/70s. That's why you have a black guy running around in the jungle in Africa, there isn't a bigger (and bad!) stereotype than that. That's also why you have Luke Cage and Misty Knight coming from the ghetto, why nearly all Asian characters created at the time were martial arts experts, etc.

    My only thing is - changing a character's ethnicity, race, gender or sexual orientation for the sake of changing is a dumb choice in my view. This is a fad.
    Last edited by hyped78; 07-18-2022 at 04:16 AM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyped78 View Post
    Yes, Black Panther needs to be black (it's even in the name) because, well, quite frankly, a lot of older Marvel non caucasian characters were created with racial and gender stereotypes that were "acceptable" in the 60s/70s. That's why you have a black guy running around in the jungle in Africa, there isn't a bigger (and bad!) stereotype than that. That's also why you have Luke Cage and Misty Knight coming from the ghetto, why nearly all Asian characters created at the time were martial arts experts, etc.

    My only thing is - changing a character's ethnicity, race, gender or sexual orientation for the sake of changing is a dumb choice in my view.
    Well not exactly. Black Panther isn't really a stereotype. Sure, his setting may be in Africa but he's not some "jungle savage." He's shown as being as smart (or smarter) than Reed Richards in their first encounter and his nation is more advanced than any other on the planet.

    And you're entitled to your opinion but, again, that's not what I was discussing.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member hyped78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    Well not exactly. Black Panther isn't really a stereotype. Sure, his setting may be in Africa but he's not some "jungle savage." He's shown as being as smart (or smarter) than Reed Richards in their first encounter and his nation is more advanced than any other on the planet.

    And you're entitled to your opinion but, again, that's not what I was discussing.
    You can't see a stereotype in this (below)? Would Marvel have portrayed a white character like this back in the day?

    Screen_Shot_2018_11_15_at_10.32.14_PM.jpg

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyped78 View Post
    You can't see a stereotype in this (below)? Would Marvel have portrayed a white character like this back in the day?

    Screen_Shot_2018_11_15_at_10.32.14_PM.jpg
    You realize that's accurate to Zulu warriors and other West African people, right? That doesn't make it a stereotype at all.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by 80sbaby View Post
    You realize that's accurate to Zulu warriors and other West African people, right? That doesn't make it a stereotype at all.
    In the late 60s? Spears and shields? I think you're confusing centuries (plus the Wakandans are such a technologically advanced society... but spears and shields?)
    Last edited by hyped78; 07-18-2022 at 04:50 AM.

  13. #58
    Astonishing Member hyped78's Avatar
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    Anyways, I'll stop it here as it's getting off topic and these discussions can be perceived the wrong way, it's a sensitive topic. Let's please agree to disagree. I will obviously watch whatever MCU movies and series come out, with Esposito or without him, at the end of the day I don't care that much/ it's not a blocker for me

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member Derek Metaltron's Avatar
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    There is some level of acceptance I think in race changes to some characters who might have been played by more comic accurate actors previously, so long as their race isn’t integral to their character. Making Luke Cage or Black Panther white isn’t acceptable because their history dictates who they should be played by, compared to someone like Xavier or Reed who could work with a non white actor because their whiteness isn’t a key factor in their character. Similar to how the backlash against changing Ciri’s race in The Witcher tv show was justified because her people and heritage was very much based on white Eastern Europe in the books. Equally there’s likely to be more of a question about Magneto being played by a non Jewish actor now given that the character’s Jewish heritage is so integral to his story, though a common question has been suggested by many that Magneto could work with a black actor if he was changed to reflect the civil rights movements of the 60’s onwards. All interesting questions.

    There’s a balance between getting a character over appearance right versus simply doing so to tick a box and score representing points, as well as the question of whether a series or universe is opting for realism versus positive diversity. That’s why I took issue with a black Anne Boleyn in one show versus something like Bridgerton which is not attempting to create a historically accurate world and is open about it.

  15. #60
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    The MCU has long since shown it isn't a 1:1 comparison to the comics. They've even now shown there's a multiverse with variants of different characters and that a white Xavier does exist within it. So having a black Xavier shouldn't really be a deal breaker or even seen as some sort of tokenization/pandering.

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