Are the X-men kind of villains now?

[Saithor]

Perhaps not sleeper agents. More like double agents like Empath was for Hellions in regards to Sinister. It’s a lot more ethical.

Empath doesn’t belong in any paragraph containing the word Ethical. Btw are we all in agreement he’s probably been put in custody by Krakoa police force/legion goon squad/enforced of Nightcrawler’s wide interpretation of the three laws/whatever they are calling themselves?

[PyroFN]

The quiet council are for sure villains.

3/4th’s of the council have been very despicable, with only five members being heroes and one (Emma) being a wild card. This statement above is accurate.

[Saithor]

3/4th’s of the council have been very despicable, with only five members being heroes and one (Emma) being a wild card. This statement above is accurate.

Kate, Storm, Nightcrawler...I guess Xavier (questionable) and Colussus (Reality Controlled atm)

[PyroFN]

They're a minority metaphor, therefor they cannot be immoral.

Like Daken, who killed two people for no reason in his first appearance, and left a trail of blood in years since

Like Mystique, who attempted genocide.

Like Exodus, who tried to destroy Genosha.

Like Apocalypse, to whom gets attributed every natural disaster, and nearly ended the world twice

Underdogs can only be good guys, amirite?

They are referencing recent years. Not the entire history. Thus far, none of these characters are who the op is talking about.

[Ulysian_Thracs]

Well Emma did bankroll the X-Men's headquarters and financed/ran operations to get the medicine out to the world. Yes both obviously benefit the nation of Krakoa but if she were totally out for herself, she wouldn't bother.

I didn't say Emma doesn't do things that benefit mutants. She would be stupid not to, as she is a mutant and she is smart enough to know a rising tide lifts all ships. And, quite frankly, she views herself as the undeclared queen of the mutants and I do believe everything Emma does, or at least the way in which she does it, is specifically geared to increase the power, wealth and prestige of Emma Frost first, and perhaps there is some miniscule bit of concern for everyone else second or third. I think her concern for others is either as deep as a toilet or else entirely fake, as she has always put herself first and cut and run whenever it was best for her personally to do so. I don't think there is any character except maybe Cyclops (and that's because Emma wanted him) who is better off for having had her 'love' or 'concern'.

(Yes, I still despise her for abandoning the kids in the New X-Men/Academy X arc. lol)

EDIT: And I guess my biggest complaint about her characterization is that the writer(s) are so in love with her that NOBODY calls her out for being so awful (except Jean once or twice) and EVERYONE is so quick to forgive her and trust her and work with her and admire her no matter how many people she hurts or backstabs over the years, in-world and out. I just see her being written as the biggest Karen...shallow, self-centered, cares about no one but herself, and ruins lives with impunity because she is rich, blonde, and pretty.

[Triniking1234]

Was reading comics long before you and those like you were born. Wolverine was never really thought of a "HERO" during the early days of Claremont's run. Guy had pretty much had no qualms about maiming/killing people with those claws of his. In New Mutants,under Claremont-Sunspot outright picked up Selene and threw her into a pool of molten lava.

Under Claremont, the X-men never were the "HEROES" you and others try to paint them as being.

Rogue almost assassinated a US Senator, Sunspot threw a vampire into a volcano, Wolverine didn't give a **** about killing and Colossus killed a villain before the villain killed his friends.

That still doesn't disqualify them from being heroes. The Avengers had people like Hulk, Namor, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Hawkeye, Wonder Man and Sandman on their crew. Clint killed Doctor Eggman. Moondragon raped Thor. Iron Man did shady **** like Armour Wars and Civil War. Vision almost took over the world.

Just because there were a few back eggs doesn't make them superheroes.

[Saithor]

I think it did get missed in the shuffle of my Apocalypse comments, but the unlimited issues dealing with Krakoan language are really an example of some of the stuff that is off-putting from this era. I was behind the Krakoan language as an unique cultural touch, even if no one really seemed to do much with it, but Cypher's explanation...

"How can we reconcile that the language of Shakespeare is also the language of the Salem Witch Trials? Or that the language of Goethe is also the language of the Holocaust? We can't. We Shouldn't.

It has to be a tongue without sin-one that can't be twisted to an evil end"

I'm sorry, but this is overly pretentious garbage. I'm actually in favor of mutants making their own culture and language but deciding you don't want to use human languages because some people who happened to speak them. It's a terrible concept to begin with because collectively holding something as inanimate as a language responsible for the actions of anyone who speaks it is dumb to begin with but they could have maybe related this to the forced teaching of english to native americans across America if you really wanted a case where the language itself was a weapon. But saying you can't reconcile the german language because people who spoke it carried out the Holocaust is moronic.

[BobbysWorld]

I honestly don’t remember us disagreeing that much overall but there’s only a few people on these forums I get heated arguing with. But yes the editorial just needs to set a tone.

Well damn, now I feel silly for hissing and intoning 'my nemesis' at the sight of your posts. Whoops.

And I see your point about the language thing but its the same issue I have with X-Men Green. I don't really ever get the sense that even the editorial staff takes the Unlimited stories all that seriously and just see them as a bonus feature rather than indicative of the era or things we're supposed to take too seriously. Which frankly, I think is a mistake and a missed opportunity, treating them that way, and I'd file that under the previous mentioned grievance with editorial and their approach to certain things.

[The Cool Thatguy]

They are referencing recent years. Not the entire history. Thus far, none of these characters are who the op is talking about.

The X-Men have grown to encompass all mutants, and sadly, has treated all their stories as the same. All victims of oppression, that therefor absolves their various sins. And who all believe in mutant unity, because they're mutants.

Like Gorgan, who worshiped evil, was very accomplished in his civilian life and killed himself to let himself be made into a weapon (funny how his cult disappeared).

Like Mystique, who's committed how many crimes?

Like Selene, who violates the laws of nature daily?

Mutants have stopped being a plurality of late, sadly.

[Diammandis]

this thread is so annoying lol half the points being brought up are so redundant and are not true

[Saithor]

Well damn, now I feel silly for hissing and intoning 'my nemesis' at the sight of your posts. Whoops.

And I see your point about the language thing but its the same issue I have with X-Men Green. I don't really ever get the sense that even the editorial staff takes the Unlimited stories all that seriously and just see them as a bonus feature rather than indicative of the era or things we're supposed to take too seriously. Which frankly, I think is a mistake and a missed opportunity, treating them that way, and I'd file that under the previous mentioned grievance with editorial and their approach to certain things.

I think they really should because this taints what is otherwise a good concept. A language but together by an oppressed people who are all from different cultures and nationalities around the world into some tongue of their own unique to them? Cool idea. Wait, they're doing it because people who speak German share that language with someone who committed the Holocaust? And people who speaks English share the language with the....Salem Witch Trials? That one actually just confuses me, of all the atrocities the English and Americans have committed, that's the one you go with? Not like, the general treatment of native Americans, or the oppressions of the Irish?

The entire "Imma make a tongue that can't be twisted to evil" just comes off as Doug being pretentious and is kinda undercut by you know, the first person to rename themselves in this language being Apocalypse

It just retroactively taints what was originally an interesting concept knowing it's in service to such a dumb motivation.

[Project Initiative Cascada]

So the OP just makes a vague claim as if all of the X-Men characters and stories are a monolith and has no kind of evidence to back it?

Lord these kind of threads are exhausting.

[Cyclone_Ablaze]

Perhaps not sleeper agents. More like double agents like Empath was for Hellions in regards to Sinister. It’s a lot more ethical.

That works for me. As long as Krakoa get's **** done. :-)

The quiet council are for sure villains.

The Quiet Council as a whole are not Villains. It's just the Villains ON the Council seem to have MORE panel and Talk time. Mystique, Destiny, Mr. Sinister and Pro. X talk the MOST. Then comes Emma and Kurt. Everyone else is quite as a mouse with nothing to say.

[Diammandis]

I didn't say Emma doesn't do things that benefit mutants. She would be stupid not to, as she is a mutant and she is smart enough to know a rising tide lifts all ships. And, quite frankly, she views herself as the undeclared queen of the mutants and I do believe everything Emma does, or at least the way in which she does it, is specifically geared to increase the power, wealth and prestige of Emma Frost first, and perhaps there is some miniscule bit of concern for everyone else second or third. I think her concern for others is either as deep as a toilet or else entirely fake, as she has always put herself first and cut and run whenever it was best for her personally to do so. I don't think there is any character except maybe Cyclops (and that's because Emma wanted him) who is better off for having had her 'love' or 'concern'.

(Yes, I still despise her for abandoning the kids in the New X-Men/Academy X arc. lol)

EDIT: And I guess my biggest complaint about her characterization is that the writer(s) are so in love with her that NOBODY calls her out for being so awful (except Jean once or twice) and EVERYONE is so quick to forgive her and trust her and work with her and admire her no matter how many people she hurts or backstabs over the years, in-world and out. I just see her being written as the biggest Karen...shallow, self-centered, cares about no one but herself, and ruins lives with impunity because she is rich, blonde, and pretty.

As an Emma fan I must say most of all of what you say is absolutely kind of absurd and contradictory to what has been presented in the story lol.

[Saithor]

That works for me. As long as Krakoa get's **** done. :-)



The Quiet Council as a whole are not Villains. It's just the Villains ON the Council seem to have MORE panel and Talk time. Mystique talks WAY too much for my liking. Storm, Colossus, Exodus are mutes they don't say word. Kitty gets one liners and Emma, Charles, Sinsters and Destiny talk the MOST.

Colussus is mind controlled atm. Exodus is iffy. half and half?