Are the X-men kind of villains now?

[Rift]

When you just wave your hand and say "no matter what truly evil **** you did in the past your forgiven now because your mutants" you are villains. That is some total racist bullshit there. There are so many evil mutants on Krakoa. Mass murders, rapists, thieves, and about every other form of vileness you can think of. It honestly makes all the X-Men look like the worst kind of hypocrites for working with them. People like Sabertooth, Apocalypse, and Mystique should have kill on sight orders, but because "we all mutants so you get a lifetime free pass" is just pathetic.

In my head cannon until they prove me wrong I still think Xavier is mentally controlling everyone on Krakoa to make them a big happy family. Just a subtle pacification wave to keep the peace and people like Jean and Emma know about it. Xavier has become Magneto.

It's not black and white, though. They literally need to work with them or they all die, because they tried everything else and failed. On top of that, they made rules specifically to keep these villains at least somewhat well-behaved, and have punishments for those who don't. Troublemakers are the exceptions to the rule, and people will fight to stop them. And for the villains they brought aboard, most of them have stopped terrorizing humanity. Some genuinely became good people. Taking them in has probably made the world safer.

There's X-Men Green, but... That's X-Men Green. I'm not sure even the writers know what the heck is going on with that train wreck.

[jwatson]

When you just wave your hand and say "no matter what truly evil **** you did in the past your forgiven now because your mutants" you are villains. That is some total racist bullshit there. There are so many evil mutants on Krakoa. Mass murders, rapists, thieves, and about every other form of vileness you can think of. It honestly makes all the X-Men look like the worst kind of hypocrites for working with them. People like Sabertooth, Apocalypse, and Mystique should have kill on sight orders, but because "we all mutants so you get a lifetime free pass" is just pathetic.

In my head cannon until they prove me wrong I still think Xavier is mentally controlling everyone on Krakoa to make them a big happy family. Just a subtle pacification wave to keep the peace and people like Jean and Emma know about it. Xavier has become Magneto.

So are we all just as guilty when a judge let's a rapist, murderer or thief back in the population? Is cap and Co horrible for allowing doom to rule latervia or any other criminal allowed to run around in the many societies of the mu.

[JB]

The problem is that politics is inherently anti-heroic by literary/superhero standards. Heroes stand for what's right at any cost, defeat their enemy and never compromise. A politician must compromise, must make unsavory alliances, must choose who gets certain resources and who doesn't. Politics is an obstacle to James Bond, Jack Bauer, Harry Potter, and Aragorn doing what they need to do to save the world or fulfilling their destinies. Even in the MCU it's the obstacle to Captain America being able to do everything he needs to do in order to be a hero. So by engaging in politics, by making compromises like politicians, the members of the Quiet Council act inherently anti-heroic.

Beautifully said.

I wonder if you men the X-Men proper or mutants in general, because I think there is a good setup currently to see mutants become the become the bad guys now that they are on top and have the power. (Because how can they exercise that power without becoming at least somewhat the oppressors?)

And I've certainly felt some of the X-Men (Xavier, Emma Frost, and Beast in particular) are certainly not heroes, and at least two of them haven't been for a while. Frost is always out for herself, and Xavier never hesitated to hurt or sacrifice others to his 'Dream'.

Well Emma did bankroll the X-Men's headquarters and financed/ran operations to get the medicine out to the world. Yes both obviously benefit the nation of Krakoa but if she were totally out for herself, she wouldn't bother.

When you just wave your hand and say "no matter what truly evil **** you did in the past your forgiven now because your mutants" you are villains. That is some total racist bullshit there. There are so many evil mutants on Krakoa. Mass murders, rapists, thieves, and about every other form of vileness you can think of. It honestly makes all the X-Men look like the worst kind of hypocrites for working with them. People like Sabertooth, Apocalypse, and Mystique should have kill on sight orders, but because "we all mutants so you get a lifetime free pass" is just pathetic.

In my head cannon until they prove me wrong I still think Xavier is mentally controlling everyone on Krakoa to make them a big happy family. Just a subtle pacification wave to keep the peace and people like Jean and Emma know about it. Xavier has become Magneto.

Some of the villains are on the road to rehabilitation, some have displayed heroic acts, and some are contributing to the nation. Should everyone incarcerated stay in jail forever or do you believe if given a chance and something to thrive for, people can better themselves? As Rift has pointed out, with very few exceptions the villains have stopped terrorizing the world since Krakoa was founded.

[Jv565]

It's not black and white, though. They literally need to work with them or they all die, because they tried everything else and failed. On top of that, they made rules specifically to keep these villains at least somewhat well-behaved, and have punishments for those who don't. Troublemakers are the exceptions to the rule, and people will fight to stop them. And for the villains they brought aboard, most of them have stopped terrorizing humanity. Some genuinely became good people. Taking them in has probably made the world safer.

There's X-Men Green, but... That's X-Men Green. I'm not sure even the writers know what the heck is going on with that train wreck.

I see what you're saying. I really do, but just because you turned yourself around doesn't mean you don't have to pay for what you've done in the past. The people Mystique killed in the past are still dead. Their families still have to live without them, and those crimes were made on international soil. Krakoa doesn't have the right to wash away crimes committed against. the citizens of while IN those other countries, regardless of whether or not they were committed by mutants. At most, Krakoa can offer asylum, but they don't have the authority to just say 'Hey. It's all good'. It means they're basically harboring fugitives, and I understand that. You have to keep your eye on the prize when you're being hunted, but it is what it is.

[rcaguy]

I feel a lot of the actions taken by the X-men in recent years seem more like the work of villains rather then heroes.

Under Claremont the X-men were never really "HEROES". They all were anti-heroes to a greater or lesser degree. That was what made them so much more appealing when compared to the Avengers or FF.

And why when you try to shoehorn them into being "HEROES" like you are trying to do, it really doesn't work.

[Triniking1234]

If you had time to ask this question, I wonder if you even read X-Men books or comics in general.

Under Claremont the X-men were never really "HEROES". They all were anti-heroes to a greater or lesser degree. That was what made them so appealing.

Even under Claremont the X-Men and New Mutants were heroes instead of anti-heroes like you stated. They operated under the same restrictions as the F4 and the Avengers did but they never had the same support from the public and other organizations like those heroes did.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Under Claremont the X-men were never really "HEROES". They all were anti-heroes to a greater or lesser degree. That was what made them so appealing.

And why when you try to shoehorn them into being "HEROES" like you are trying to do, it really doesn't work.

Eh, they were only anti-heroes because that's how comic book logic operated at the time. Everyone did that, had secret identities, etc.

[Jv565]

If you had time to ask this question, I wonder if you even read X-Men books or comics in general.



Even under Claremont the X-Men and New Mutants were heroes instead of anti-heroes like you stated. They operated under the same restrictions as the F4 and the Avengers did but they never had the same support from the public and other organizations like those heroes did.

Could not agree more, and I actually think that made them more heroic than the FF and Avengers.

[Omega Alpha]

It's not black and white, though. They literally need to work with them or they all die, because they tried everything else and failed. On top of that, they made rules specifically to keep these villains at least somewhat well-behaved, and have punishments for those who don't. Troublemakers are the exceptions to the rule, and people will fight to stop them. And for the villains they brought aboard, most of them have stopped terrorizing humanity. Some genuinely became good people. Taking them in has probably made the world safer.

There's X-Men Green, but... That's X-Men Green. I'm not sure even the writers know what the heck is going on with that train wreck.

Yep, there's also the fact that due to Moira's other lives as well as previous attempts of a mutant nation, we know that anything short of that doesn't work, and mutants lose. Hell, due to Karima, we know for a fact that mutants won, hence why she returned in the first place.

I see what you're saying. I really do, but just because you turned yourself around doesn't mean you don't have to pay for what you've done in the past. The people Mystique killed in the past are still dead. Their families still have to live without them, and those crimes were made on international soil. Krakoa doesn't have the right to wash away crimes committed against. the citizens of while IN those other countries, regardless of whether or not they were committed by mutants. At most, Krakoa can offer asylum, but they don't have the authority to just say 'Hey. It's all good'. It means they're basically harboring fugitives, and I understand that. You have to keep your eye on the prize when you're being hunted, but it is what it is.

People are acting like blanket amnesties are something the X-men comics invented, they aren't, they did and already happened in real life, when a nation (or at least, it's rulers) decide it's time to move on from previous disputes. They are never uncontroversial, but the alternative, in some cases at least, is let factional conflicts continue forever- and with some mutants, that can happen literally. Krakoa could join the group of humans, mutants, aliens and robots that has been trying for 4000 years trying to get rid of Apocalypse, or work with him for once and trying to build something knew. And again, we know what is the alternative.

[Minerboh]

Some actions they made are questionable, sure.
Isolation is a bit extreme despite the fact that I can understand their POV and Xavier's meddling of Reed's memories from the recent crossover with the F4.
I do believe they are manipulated by Moira.
In the core X-MEN title they operate as usual and they take action in many events such as the King In Black.

[JB]

I think another thing to consider is that the nations of the world know Krakoa's population includes villains and most of the nations have officially recognized it and signed treaties with it. Do we think the various governments are wrong to do this?

Also, do we think heroes like the Avengers, FF, and Spider-Man are wrong to attend the Gala and to remain friendly with the mutants? They've all worked with rehabilitated villains at times. And we've had villains turned heroes like the Thunderbolts and countless others. It seems to me the governments of the world and the other heroes out there have faith in Krakoa and mutantkind.

[Confuzzled]

The problem is that politics is inherently anti-heroic by literary/superhero standards. Heroes stand for what's right at any cost, defeat their enemy and never compromise. A politician must compromise, must make unsavory alliances, must choose who gets certain resources and who doesn't. Politics is an obstacle to James Bond, Jack Bauer, Harry Potter, and Aragorn doing what they need to do to save the world or fulfilling their destinies. Even in the MCU it's the obstacle to Captain America being able to do everything he needs to do in order to be a hero. So by engaging in politics, by making compromises like politicians, the members of the Quiet Council act inherently anti-heroic.

The real problem is that the Marvel Universe treats Captain America differently from the mutants, so while Cap not making a compromise works for him and he has less to lose with his stance, the same isn't true for mutants. See, I feel like Hickman era is very clear in it's position on Krakoan leadership. A large part of HoX/PoX was Moira trying everything possible by trial and error to ensure the survival of mutants (well, except Life 3 but even that was a twisted form of ensuring survival) and Lives 4 and 5 were going the traditional superheroic route by helping Charles form the X-Men and fight for the cause of peaceful coexistence (Life 4) or giving up on that dream and making the side of angels build an island nation by themselves (Life 5). Both of these attempts unfortunately saw terrible ends meaning mutant survival depended on aligning with the demons too.

So who are the real anti-heroes here? The mutants for doing only what needs to be done in order to survive or the Avengers and the other "heroes" who don't even intervene when mutants are being slaughtered or couldn't be assed to strategize and pour in their resources in the long-term for the goal of mutant survival?

[rcaguy]

Was reading comics long before you and those like you were born. Wolverine was never really thought of a "HERO" during the early days of Claremont's run. Guy had pretty much had no qualms about maiming/killing people with those claws of his. In New Mutants,under Claremont-Sunspot outright picked up Selene and threw her into a pool of molten lava.

Under Claremont, the X-men never were the "HEROES" you and others try to paint them as being.

[The Cool Thatguy]

The real problem is that the Marvel Universe treats Captain America differently from the mutants, so while Cap not making a compromise works for him and he has less to lose with his stance, the same isn't true for mutants. See, I feel like Hickman era is very clear in it's position on Krakoan leadership. A large part of HoX/PoX was Moira trying everything possible by trial and error to ensure the survival of mutants (well, except Life 3 but even that was a twisted form of ensuring survival) and Lives 4 and 5 were going the traditional superheroic route by helping Charles form the X-Men and fight for the cause of peaceful coexistence (Life 4) or giving up on that dream and making the side of angels build an island nation by themselves (Life 5). Both of these attempts unfortunately saw terrible ends meaning mutant survival depended on aligning with the demons too.

So who are the real anti-heroes here? The mutants for doing only what needs to be done in order to survive or the Avengers and the other "heroes" who don't even intervene when mutants are being slaughtered or couldn't be assed to strategize and pour in their resources in the long-term for the goal of mutant survival?

The whole '16 million people died' thing isn't great guilt slinging when the X-Men resurrected the woman who did the mass slaughter, and the fact that she wasn't even human to begin with.

And given the fact that the Avengers have saved the world dozens of times, trying to use shared canon against them is a bit of dirty pool.

I mean, where were the X-Men when Ultron wiped out that random Balkan nation, huh? Huh?

[Saithor]

Look, to read X-men comics just understand that mutants fundamentally operate off a different moral scale where they invented an entire language because they consider all other languages the language of those who endorse genocide…and then the first person to rename themselves with that language is a person who literally has attempted genocide of his own sound kind several times.


Then again we can argue how sound of mind anyone with Apocalypse’s dumb as **** eugenicist beliefs is. Social Darwinism got disproven in the 1900s, you dick.