How much can you change a character before its no longer the same character?

[mathew101281]

Characters like Superman and Batman have gone through numerous changes over the years. But how much can you change a character before something fundamental to the character goes missing? Do characters have specific core characteristics that can't be removed without turning the character into a completely different character?

[Jon Clark]

Characters like Superman and Batman have gone through numerous changes over the years. But how much can you change a character before something fundamental to the character goes missing? Do characters have specific core characteristics that can't be removed without turning the character into a completely different character?

I think the answer varies from reader to reader. One person will honestly say that Adam West and Christian Bale both equally embody Batman. Another person honestly considers Byrne's Superman as a distinct and different character from the one Jurgens, Stern and Simonson wrote in the Triangle era.

For some you get the costume within a certain range and name check certain supporting cast and it's a valid story
For someone else you show Batman using a gun or Clark Kent,out of costume, punching out a bully and you have missed the essence of the character.

And you don't have to look far on this site to find a debate on what is or isn't the real version of the character. Or expounding on how Wally/Barry/Hal/John ... Is the ONLY correct character to use the name.

[Restingvoice]

In DC stories there are milestones that they keep around, like Death in The Family, Killing Joke, Death of Superman
Those are the milestones that you can use as a major reason of why the characters are the way they are

Like for example, you can argue about how much Batman is broody and distant in the years leading up to Jason's death, but you can't argue he became broody and distant because of his parents' and Jason's death

The rest of the years are up for grabs because it's been a long timeline, about 20 years. Many things happened in between them, not all of them still canon.

[sifighter]

All depends on natural progression over story I suppose. I mean I don’t expect characters to remain static forever and if the story causes those changes in character then I suppose it’s fine.

[j9ac9k]

It's different or each fan, but I think it's mostly a matter of "what" gets changed, rather than "how much." All the various Elseworlds are good examples, since they change a ton of stuff, but always try to hold onto the thing that makes the character "feel" the same.

[LordMikel]

I would say Huntress has been radically changed and is no longer the same character.

[Digifiend]

She literally isn't, she went from being Batman's daughter to being an Italian mobster's daughter due to the original origin no longer being possible post-Crisis.

[j9ac9k]

She literally isn't, she went from being Batman's daughter to being an Italian mobster's daughter due to the original origin no longer being possible post-Crisis.

Yes, those two Huntresses are from different universes.

One character who underwent radical changes was Kilowog. He was introduced as a slightly awkward gentle giant, but a brilliant scientist (geneticist, I think) then was changed into a rough, brash drill sergeant with no real scientific background. I wouldn't consider him the "same" character even though there was no continuity break or reboot. Writers just changed him over time with characterization and the retcon that he had met Hal early on.

[bretmaverick2]

Batman himself is no longer the same character. 70s / 80s Batman was a detective. Now he has morphed in to an ego-centric, just violent, scheming behind the back of his friends jerk.

[Ascended]

It's different or each fan, but I think it's mostly a matter of "what" gets changed, rather than "how much." All the various Elseworlds are good examples, since they change a ton of stuff, but always try to hold onto the thing that makes the character "feel" the same.

Agreed.

Really a case-by-case basis isn't it? Was Aquaman still Aquaman under PAD when he had the harpoon hand and attitude? Are the various versions of (Kara) Supergirl all still Supergirl despite running the full spectrum between "angry angsty teen" and "All-American sweetheart?"

For me it kinda boils down to two things; is the change a natural, organic progression of character? And does the change retain, or even build upon, some of the core traits and themes of the character?

Batman used to use guns. When he stopped, was that character progression, an update to the base character template, or was it a deviation from what the character was supposed to be? Is Superman still Superman now that he has a kid and an open identity? Every fan will likely have a slightly different answer.

I figure if I can look at the character and still recognize who it is, and those core traits and themes are intact, then it's still the same character even if other relatively big things have been changed. I think we often overlook the fact that every writer will handle characters a little differently, or even tweak things a bit for the needs of the current story. In effect they're different/new characters in every single issue, and as fans we're often too rigid in what we'll accept as being "in character."

[Primal Slayer]

Arrow is the perfect example.

Tv Oliver Queen is not Oliver Queen. Only thing they have in common are the name, bows n arrows.

Laurel Lance is not Dinah Lance.

And just about every other hero they adapted

[Stanlos]

Characters like Superman and Batman have gone through numerous changes over the years. But how much can you change a character before something fundamental to the character goes missing? Do characters have specific core characteristics that can't be removed without turning the character into a completely different character?

See Flashpoint and New 52 WW. They changed her into Xena or Kratos in a Party City WW costume. Unlike Supes, they also went out of their way to disprove her legend rather than celebrate it. They demonstrated that she was NOT stronger than Hercules; that she was NOT swifter--or even as fast as--Mercury. Their choices were bizarre as were many of Grant's in the E1 series (the art is beautiful though).

[Primal Slayer]

See Flashpoint and New 52 WW. They changed her into Xena or Kratos in a Party City WW costume. Unlike Supes, they also went out of their way to disprove her legend rather than celebrate it. They demonstrated that she was NOT stronger than Hercules; that she was NOT swifter--or even as fast as--Mercury. Their choices were bizarre as were many of Grant's in the E1 series (the art is beautiful though).

I dont know why people keep calling New 52, Xena. Xena wasn't an angry person who wanted to kill everyone in sight. Xena was on a road of redemption.

[Odd Rödney]

I would argue that the version of Wolverine we've had in the X-Men books since, about 2003 or so, is not the same dude from the Claremont adventures. He used to get injured and take a couple days to get back into fighting shape. These days he can regenerate from a single cell or some nonsense. This may not be a change in his character, he's still this gruff, cigar-smoking, beer-swilling Eastwood impression. However, a lot of gravity is take out of stories he's featured in because he's pretty much immortal now, and he was like this long before the resurrection protocols of the new Krakoan era.

[LordMikel]

She literally isn't, she went from being Batman's daughter to being an Italian mobster's daughter due to the original origin no longer being possible post-Crisis.

And then back to Batman's daughter and then back to the Italian Mobster's daughter, but she looked entirely different.