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  1. #16
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    This is great. I was meaning to get a collection of this story.

    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    That kid in the picture looks like Jon. I just thought he was at the scene when his dad died. Where is the description for this? I don't see a link anywhere. And does that mean Matrix Supergirl existed in this timeline?
    If you check out that link, there is a link to an interview with Jurgens. He does mention Matrix Supergirl and that this project does not expand that far.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    No I was initially confused about that too, but it says Jon finds out at school one day that his dad died, something his parents never told him. It takes place long after the death actually happened and then he has to fight a villain called Doombreaker.
    Now I'm curious about how old Kon is? Has he been Superboy for over 10 years? And Tim and the others?

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Last Son of Krypton View Post
    Descriptions of the story:

    The Death of Superman 30th Anniversary Special #1 features four all-new stories that explore the lasting impact that Clark’s death had on his family and friends as well as nine pinups and variant covers by some of the top names in comics.

    Each of the original creative teams from The Death of Superman has reunited to tell a story that shows how some of Superman’s biggest allies reacted during and after his fateful battle with Doomsday:

    “The Life of Superman” by Dan Jurgens (W & A), Brett Breeding (A), Brad Anderson (C), and John Workman (L) - A young Jon Kent finds out in school that his dad had died years earlier, as his parents never told him about that fateful day. In the midst of dealing with this emotional news, Jon and Clark need to team up to fight a new villain connected to Doomsday called DOOMBREAKER.

    “Standing Guard” by Roger Stern (W), Butch Guice (A), Glenn Whitmore (C), and Rob Leigh (L) - The epic battle between Superman and Doomsday from the Guardians’ perspective.

    “Time” by Louise Simonson (W), Jon Bogdanove (A), Glenn Whitmore (C), and Rob Leigh (L) - The story of how the death of Superman looked from John Henry Irons’s perspective.

    “Above and Beyond” by Jerry Ordway (W), Tom Grummett (P), Doug Hazlewood (I), Glenn Whitmore (C), and Rob Leigh (L) - A powerful story of Ma and Pa Kent watching their son fight Doomsday live on television and going through Clark’s photo albums with the feeling that their son always prevails.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Since no matter what happens - rains of blood, human sacrifice, cats and dogs sleeping together - they will NEVER erase the Death of Superman, I will never understand why they don't just confirm that they are sticking to the post-Crisis continuity, keeping all the stories from Byrne's Man of Steel to Infinite Crisis as canon and just erasing all the other stuff before the introduction of Jon, since no one will ever mention Johns' World of New Krypton, Rogol Zaar or New52 Superbro ever again if not for very specific and limited projects.

    Not the solution I'd personally go for, but probably the easiest to achieve all things considered. They should just find a way to justify the presence of Zod and "regular" Supergirl in this continuity and... That's it, actually.
    If they in this just reinsert Conner leaving out whatever bendis made, I will be happy.
    And happy to see kid Jon again.
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  5. #20
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    matrix supergirl

    Kon IN, and how old would that make him?

    kid jon

    I actually liked the "potential" of the new Krypton story, just not the execution. Chris was a mess and should just be left out of it, and kept judt for the kid Chris storyline he was introduced in. maybe have kon, Chris, and Jon all know each other, and spent time together as kents(before having Chris get swept away again and taught by his father as a zod.
    Created from 2 of the greatest men,made with 2 powersets thst are both SUPER,and has 2 cool asf looks and attitudes.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    If they in this just reinsert Conner leaving out whatever bendis made, I will be happy.
    And happy to see kid Jon again.
    The mere fact that Conner - in his original version - is part of the current continuity (as far as I know, I am not exactly following the books right now) proves that there are literally zero reasons to consider all of the other versions (neon Superboy or whatever it was) as part of the canon.

    What I am suggesting doesn't seem to be part of DC's mindset these days ("all the stories happened" or whatever) and what I am thinking of is just a good, old-fashioned streamlined continuity. But since many people have been asking for a clearer approach to Superman's history, well, there are no reasons not to keep the post-Crisis Byrne/Stern/Jurgens version as canon and just throw all the other versions away.

    I mean... The Kents are both alive, Conner Kent exists, Luthor is a billionaire, regular Superman was never in the Legion of Superheroes. Basically all of the changes introduced into post-Crisis continuity are still there. So what is the point of repeating the mantra "everything counts" when it is definitely, 100% clear that the continuity they are using is de facto the Byrne one?

    My way of thinking is simple: no matter what happens, the Death of Superman will ALWAYS be kept in continuity. But that specific storyline really works only within the Byrne continuity. Characters like Cyborg Superman, or Eradicator, or even Conner, don't make much sense with a different version of the main character. So - as long as they want to be coherent - keeping the Death of Superman as canon means that the triangle era is canon. And the triangle era works only in the Byrne continuity.

    Most of the variations introduced in the latest decades (the different versions of Brainiac, for example) are actually relatively minor changes and they had already been partly implemented during the Loeb/Kelly era, which was still part of the Byrne continuity. Most of the details which concern alternative versions of the character (Johns/Busiek, for example) are not part of the current continuity anymore. Heroic Chris Kent doesn't exist anymore, for example. The current version is a villainous one which was introduced by Jurgens (as far as I remember).

    Of course keeping the post-Crisis continuity also means keeping Jon in continuity. Don't get me wrong, I hate Jon Kent in all of his versions, but if someone really roots for that character, well, he's way closer to the triangle era than any other era introduced in the meantime.

    Again, I repeat it - the only important elements of current continuity which don't make much sense within the Byrne canon are Zod and Supergirl (and Krypto, maybe). And both - especially Supergirl - have had, like, 5-6 different origins in the latest 15 years? It's the type of untold story which DC can recap in a six-issue miniseries.

    If I was in charge of DC, I'd just slap the label "the Superman canon!" on the entirety of the triangle era since Byrne's Man of Steel up to the end of Loeb/Kelly (included). And then I'd just skip Johns' era, New52 (both can be their own thing, if someone have fond memories of them) and just consider the Rebirth era as canon (more or less).

    Ok, now that I think of it, old Jor-El/Mr Oz also doesn't make much sense in the Byrne canon. But they are not particularly keen on reminding us that that storyline happened. Or Rogol Zaar, either. But again - it's the type of stuff which can be put in continuity with some minor adjustment if they wanted to.

    Yes, maybe some characters will be more or less erased, but is there someone who is rooting for H'El or the female version of Leo Quintum introduced by Lobdell? And there are a couple of characters from the triangle era - the Cleric or Matrix Supergirl - who were part of more stories and IMHO were more interesting than a lot of characters who were introduced afterwards.
    Last edited by Myskin; 07-28-2022 at 12:20 AM.
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  7. #22
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    They're bringing back a lot of the Triangle Era people for this??!?!

    Well, that's an instant buy of every version of this for me, lol....
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  8. #23
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    The mere fact that Conner - in his original version - is part of the current continuity (as far as I know, I am not exactly following the books right now) proves that there are literally zero reasons to consider all of the other versions (neon Superboy or whatever it was) as part of the canon.

    What I am suggesting doesn't seem to be part of DC's mindset these days ("all the stories happened" or whatever) and what I am thinking of is just a good, old-fashioned streamlined continuity. But since many people have been asking for a clearer approach to Superman's history, well, there are no reasons not to keep the post-Crisis Byrne/Stern/Jurgens version as canon and just throw all the other versions away.

    I mean... The Kents are both alive, Conner Kent exists, Luthor is a billionaire, regular Superman was never in the Legion of Superheroes. Basically all of the changes introduced into post-Crisis continuity are still there. So what is the point of repeating the mantra "everything counts" when it is definitely, 100% clear that the continuity they are using is de facto the Byrne one?

    My way of thinking is simple: no matter what happens, the Death of Superman will ALWAYS be kept in continuity. But that specific storyline really works only within the Byrne continuity. Characters like Cyborg Superman, or Eradicator, or even Conner, don't make much sense with a different version of the main character. So - as long as they want to be coherent - keeping the Death of Superman as canon means that the triangle era is canon. And the triangle era works only in the Byrne continuity.

    Most of the variations introduced in the latest decades (the different versions of Brainiac, for example) are actually relatively minor changes and they had already been partly implemented during the Loeb/Kelly era, which was still part of the Byrne continuity. Most of the details which concern alternative versions of the character (Johns/Busiek, for example) are not part of the current continuity anymore. Heroic Chris Kent doesn't exist anymore, for example. The current version is a villainous one which was introduced by Jurgens (as far as I remember).

    Of course keeping the post-Crisis continuity also means keeping Jon in continuity. Don't get me wrong, I hate Jon Kent in all of his versions, but if someone really roots for that character, well, he's way closer to the triangle era than any other era introduced in the meantime.

    Again, I repeat it - the only important elements of current continuity which don't make much sense within the Byrne canon are Zod and Supergirl (and Krypto, maybe). And both - especially Supergirl - have had, like, 5-6 different origins in the latest 15 years? It's the type of untold story which DC can recap in a six-issue miniseries.

    If I was in charge of DC, I'd just slap the label "the Superman canon!" on the entirety of the triangle era since Byrne's Man of Steel up to the end of Loeb/Kelly (included). And then I'd just skip Johns' era, New52 (both can be their own thing, if someone have fond memories of them) and just consider the Rebirth era as canon (more or less).

    Ok, now that I think of it, old Jor-El/Mr Oz also doesn't make much sense in the Byrne canon. But they are not particularly keen on reminding us that that storyline happened. Or Rogol Zaar, either. But again - it's the type of stuff which can be put in continuity with some minor adjustment if they wanted to.

    Yes, maybe some characters will be more or less erased, but is there someone who is rooting for H'El or the female version of Leo Quintum introduced by Lobdell? And there are a couple of characters from the triangle era - the Cleric or Matrix Supergirl - who were part of more stories and IMHO were more interesting than a lot of characters who were introduced afterwards.
    Yeah a return to 40 year old continuity is definitely what Superman needs right now, that definitely won’t cause a bunch of problems. Let it go Myskin, you’re not even reading the ongoings right? Why do you care if the mainline Superman books don’t have a coherent continuity? It’s only the basic details of DoS that DC cares about: Doomsday shows up, kills Superman, a couple doppelgängers take his place for a while, he comes back and reclaims his mantle. That’s the same deal with Superman’s history at large right now. None of the Superman books are obsessing over some minor soap opera bullshit from the Triangle Era, nor should they. The Byrne era is over and done. An anniversary issue meant to profit on nostalgia doesn’t change that.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yeah a return to 40 year old continuity is definitely what Superman needs right now, that definitely won’t cause a bunch of problems. Let it go Myskin, you’re not even reading the ongoings right? Why do you care if the mainline Superman books don’t have a coherent continuity? It’s only the basic details of DoS that DC cares about: Doomsday shows up, kills Superman, a couple doppelgängers take his place for a while, he comes back and reclaims his mantle. That’s the same deal with Superman’s history at large right now. None of the Superman books are obsessing over some minor soap opera bullshit from the Triangle Era, nor should they. The Byrne era is over and done. An anniversary issue meant to profit on nostalgia doesn’t change that.
    It was just for discussion's sake, isn't it allowed anymore? Ok.
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    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  10. #25
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    It was just for discussion's sake, isn't it allowed anymore? Ok.
    Certainly it’s allowed but what would be the benefit? It’s not like either of the Superman ongoings would benefit from reverting to the old continuity. The specifics of Superman’s origin have no bearing on his struggles regarding Warworld currently for example. And Byrne’s continuity has problems of its own. For example DC is never going to wholly erase Johns’ New 52 JL run because that’s the most popular modern run and the basis for the modern understanding of the JL. Lex being an old man who grew up in Metropolis is central to Byrne’s run but that take doesn’t work anymore either, too many adaptions of Lex have him around Clark’s age now or tie him to Smallville. Supergirl and Krypto have re-entered mainstream awareness and neither works within the context of what Byrne established.

    If you have to do a bunch of retcons to Byrne’s stories to make it “work” then there’s no point because that results in the same situation as what we have now: stories that are “canon” but not really. End of the day the state of the “sacred continuity” doesn’t mean much, are you going to return to reading Superman ongoings if they reverted to Byrne? Because I doubt very many people would, and plenty more would simply leave at yet another soft reboot of Superman from DC.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yeah a return to 40 year old continuity is definitely what Superman needs right now, that definitely won’t cause a bunch of problems. Let it go Myskin, you’re not even reading the ongoings right? Why do you care if the mainline Superman books don’t have a coherent continuity? It’s only the basic details of DoS that DC cares about: Doomsday shows up, kills Superman, a couple doppelgängers take his place for a while, he comes back and reclaims his mantle. That’s the same deal with Superman’s history at large right now. None of the Superman books are obsessing over some minor soap opera bullshit from the Triangle Era, nor should they. The Byrne era is over and done. An anniversary issue meant to profit on nostalgia doesn’t change that.
    It is obviously a nostalgia bait, but at the same time main story here is written by a guy who wrote Death and created Jon. And well he is trying to connect Jon to Death here. DC probably isn't planning to make 40 years old continuity "real one", but Jurgens might have different opinion.

  12. #27
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    On continuity, I honestly think that Reborn (but including Connor) was the best possible way to go about it given the issues that Superman's timeline has had over the years. It's the closest thing to what they do over on the Bat books, and that seems to work fine there (for the most part).

    That said, if they were to bring the Triangle Era writers all back in for a few years or more, I'd probably go broke getting all of those books, lol
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    It is obviously a nostalgia bait, but at the same time main story here is written by a guy who wrote Death and created Jon. And well he is trying to connect Jon to Death here. DC probably isn't planning to make 40 years old continuity "real one", but Jurgens might have different opinion.
    I don't know what Jurgens is thinking.
    But the fact that DC is apparently resurrecting Conduit rather than Preus or Khyber, and is still using Steel (both versions) instead of Ghost Soldier is relevant, as far as I am concerned.
    Together with the fact that Jurgens - a writer I don't particularly like - keeps being the most influential Superman writer of all time since the 1980s, apparently.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  14. #29
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    It is obviously a nostalgia bait, but at the same time main story here is written by a guy who wrote Death and created Jon. And well he is trying to connect Jon to Death here. DC probably isn't planning to make 40 years old continuity "real one", but Jurgens might have different opinion.
    Oh Jurgens definitely wants to fold in as much of his old stories back into canon as he can, which is understandable. Morrison did the same with Superman & the Authority and Johns did as well with Rebirth and Doomsday Clock. But that’s not on the same scale as what Myskin is proposing. What he’s suggesting is akin to yet another soft reboot for little gain imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    On continuity, I honestly think that Reborn (but including Connor) was the best possible way to go about it given the issues that Superman's timeline has had over the years. It's the closest thing to what they do over on the Bat books, and that seems to work fine there (for the most part).

    That said, if they were to bring the Triangle Era writers all back in for a few years or more, I'd probably go broke getting all of those books, lol
    I know you at least would go nuts over a return to the Post-Crisis continuity

    Reborn is a good a compromise as we’re likely going to get. The skeleton of Secret Origin is canon and things are vague enough that a writer can reference whatever they want from any era. Long as they don’t mess with Rebirth then this status quo is good enough for me, I’m just not interested in trying to make it all work, especially if it comes at the cost of letting Waid write stories like his Batman/Superman run which flat out does not mesh at all with that Post Crisis era continuity.
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  15. #30
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I know you at least would go nuts over a return to the Post-Crisis continuity
    For the most part, I would, indeed...

    Reborn is a good a compromise as we’re likely going to get. The skeleton of Secret Origin is canon and things are vague enough that a writer can reference whatever they want from any era. Long as they don’t mess with Rebirth then this status quo is good enough for me, I’m just not interested in trying to make it all work, especially if it comes at the cost of letting Waid write stories like his Batman/Superman run which flat out does not mesh at all with that Post Crisis era continuity.
    Agreed. Though I do have an idea for how parts of this could all work and even keep the old continuity: the timeline that's the main one that the heroes know and the one that *we* know are slightly different in that we saw the ways that continuity and time were either altered or mangled by various forces. Reborn could have just as easily restored the timeline to what it had been and left the unique New52/etc characters in a similar situation to Power Girl (or, honestly, where Pre-Flashpoint - but let's be honest, actually Triangle-Era - Lois and Clark were when they first visited New52's timeline) and trying to find their way all over again. And what *we* don't/didn't know at first is that the energy from these changes cause new universes to form. I still contend that a "DC Multiverse" line would be good, to revisit past timelines and cross over with the current one, so we see new and past faces/versions of faces meet. Is it a lot to take in? Sure. But is it a rich history that they might as well run with since they're stuck with it anyway? I'd say yes.

    But that's just my crazy nutbar fever dream idea for how to handle continuity. Also that it grows out from the center, so that if a new timeline grows and that becomes the center of the DCU (and thus the main books), we still see the other versions. That way nobody's favorite version is gone, and they will likely see them again, and we can still have fresh directions if we need to.
    Last edited by JAK; 07-28-2022 at 02:21 AM.
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