BATMAN #126 exclusive preview page

[millernumber1]

I read it more as Joker played with them and then got away without Bruce doing a damn thing to stop him.

Hell, Barbara was whooping Joker's behind in Batgirl until she was forced (primarily for story purposes?) to give in and surrender (I believe because Joker was supposedly holding her mother hostage?).

Yeah, I tend towards your reading. Snyder, for all his love of Batgod, believes Joker is more powerful. He can never truly have Joker win, since it's a corporate property, but Joker terrifies him, and he refuses to actually give Batman a victory over the clown.

[Frontier]

I mean, I think Batman's won plenty, but I guess it depends on your definition of a decisive win.

[Iclifton]

Loving everything about this run so far. I actually like that he refers to them as soldiers. I think this is the best Bruce’s sounded in years. It’s obvious he sees them as fam and wants the best for them. I prefer my Bruce to be less soft. Not an a$$#*** but still emotionally damaged.

[HsssH]

Snyder keeps using Joker so he can't really have him defeated or his future storyline would feel not as big.

[millernumber1]

I mean, I think Batman's won plenty, but I guess it depends on your definition of a decisive win.

I just think that Snyder thinks that Joker as the embodiment of evil is too compelling and powerful to ever actually have any real victories over him.

Snyder keeps using Joker so he can't really have him defeated or his future storyline would feel not as big.

Well, that also gets into my personal feeling that Snyder never actually really ends a story, just stops for the trade and starts again in another series or arc.

[Iclifton]

I just think that Snyder thinks that Joker as the embodiment of evil is too compelling and powerful to ever actually have any real victories over him.



Well, that also gets into my personal feeling that Snyder never actually really ends a story, just stops for the trade and starts again in another series or arc.

I’d argue Black Mirror and the Court of Owls were pretty complete stories. As well as Zero Year. Really the only arcs he continued are Death of the Family and Endgame.

[Frontier]

I just think that Snyder thinks that Joker as the embodiment of evil is too compelling and powerful to ever actually have any real victories over him.

Well, that also gets into my personal feeling that Snyder never actually really ends a story, just stops for the trade and starts again in another series or arc.

I don't deny that but I also feel like Batman's had real victories against Joker in his run (well, more or less). Of course his final ending was Batman and a Joker Robot being best pals so ...

I feel like his run ended well enough even though he basically continued his "myth arc" in JL and the event books.

[millernumber1]

I’d argue Black Mirror and the Court of Owls were pretty complete stories. As well as Zero Year. Really the only arcs he continued are Death of the Family and Endgame.

Black Mirror is my one exception to Snyder's ending problem. It ends beautifully.

Court of Owls I strongly disagree has any real sense of completion. The fact that Snyder keeps yanking them into other stories to setup more future stories doesn't help.

I don't deny that but I also feel like Batman's had real victories against Joker in his run (well, more or less). Of course his final ending was Batman and a Joker Robot being best pals so ...

I feel like his run ended well enough even though he basically continued his "myth arc" in JL and the event books.

I do not deny that my absolute fury and disgust at the way Snyder handled Joker in Last Knight on Earth colors what I think, but I find the endings of Death of the Family and Endgame infuriating in and of themselves, so it's not like that story did anything but confirm my frustration at what Snyder does with the Joker.

Snyder did manage to figure out an ending to his Batman run with Superheavy - I just think his thematic argument is really horrifying - Batman is dead, and cannot grow because of that.

That being said, I find the epilogue between Jim and Batman in Superheavy intensely moving:

Batman: "I remember the first time I took the train into the city. How it felt. How I came out of the Midtown Tunnel and WHAM. The SIZE of the place is the thing. The way the city towers over you like a CHALLENGE. Like, "I was here before you, I'll be here after you." Like..."

Jim: "Like "Who the hell do you think you are?" That's easy, though. You're Batman. There rest of us...we do what we can to be able to say: I was here."

Final panel of Julie touching the brick with Bruce's name on it.

That was beautiful and powerful, even though it follows the statement I find horrifying, "That man died a long time ago."

[Iclifton]

Black Mirror is my one exception to Snyder's ending problem. It ends beautifully.

Court of Owls I strongly disagree has any real sense of completion. The fact that Snyder keeps yanking them into other stories to setup more future stories doesn't help.
"

So because he reused a character it means the original story is incomplete. By that logic every reoccurring villain has never had a complete story. He created a mythology/villains and reused them later. Like every successful villain. That doesn’t mean the initial story is incomplete.

[MajorHoy]

I’d argue Black Mirror and the Court of Owls were pretty complete stories...

Court of Owls served to show how Bruce knew so little about what really was going on in Gotham City all these years, and the Court barely seemed to have slown down as a result of that arc.

And The Black Mirror doesn't really count because it was Dick (not Bruce) as Batman, plus that was pre-Flashpoint / pre-New52.

The New52 really seemed to bring out the excessive in Snyder's work.

[Iclifton]

Court of Owls served to show how Bruce knew so little about what really was going on in Gotham City all these years, and the Court barely seemed to have slown down as a result of that arc.

And The Black Mirror doesn't really count because it was Dick (not Bruce) as Batman, plus that was pre-Flashpoint / pre-New52.

The New52 really seemed to bring out the excessive in Snyder's work.

I mean almost all of their members were killed. I don’t even love the arc but it was definitely completed. The face off between Bruce and Owlman was a clear ending. Not a great one, but still an ending. Zero Year was also very complete. Black Mirror counts because it’s a Batman story and the original post I was replying to stated “Snyder never finishes stories”.

I have the opposite feeling towards Snyder. He was so focused on telling complete, cinematic blockbuster arcs that his run didn’t have a real through line. There was never any development. By the end of each arc the toys were put back in place again.

[Frontier]

I do not deny that my absolute fury and disgust at the way Snyder handled Joker in Last Knight on Earth colors what I think, but I find the endings of Death of the Family and Endgame infuriating in and of themselves, so it's not like that story did anything but confirm my frustration at what Snyder does with the Joker."

I think the endings were probably the least of my problems with those stories, but that's just me.

[millernumber1]

So because he reused a character it means the original story is incomplete. By that logic every reoccurring villain has never had a complete story. He created a mythology/villains and reused them later. Like every successful villain. That doesn’t mean the initial story is incomplete.

See below.

Not a great one, but still an ending. Zero Year was also very complete. Black Mirror counts because it’s a Batman story and the original post I was replying to stated “Snyder never finishes stories”.

I'm very curious - why don't you think Court of Owls has a great ending? I think it's possible we're talking at cross purposes. I am not saying "Snyder never finishes stories" - I'm saying he doesn't end them, just stops. It's not that they feel like a Netflix or 24-type TV show where nothing ever stops, more that his endings are very unsatisfying to me for a lot of reasons, one of which is that he does have a tendency to keep saying "this is building up to my next story". But he does stop his stories. I just don't think he ends them - gives them a satisfying conclusion.

I think the endings were probably the least of my problems with those stories, but that's just me.

I'm very curious - what are your bigger problems? (Maybe we should take it to https://community.cbr.com/showthread...02#post6144602 so that when the new issue of Batman shows up, we can properly discuss Zdarsky's run )

[Iclifton]

See below.



I'm very curious - why don't you think Court of Owls has a great ending? I think it's possible we're talking at cross purposes. I am not saying "Snyder never finishes stories" - I'm saying he doesn't end them, just stops. It's not that they feel like a Netflix or 24-type TV show where nothing ever stops, more that his endings are very unsatisfying to me for a lot of reasons, one of which is that he does have a tendency to keep saying "this is building up to my next story". But he does stop his stories. I just don't think he ends them - gives them a satisfying conclusion.
)

I think the Owlman was lame and not as scary and the citizens wearing the masks pulling the strings. But he completed the story he set out to tell and thematically it finished. It’s as much of an ending your going to get in comics where the characters are reoccurring. Hush was a complete story but he still came back and was explored in further depth. I’m just not a fan of Snyders run overall. Peaked with issue 6.

[millernumber1]

I think the Owlman was lame and not as scary and the citizens wearing the masks pulling the strings. But he completed the story he set out to tell and thematically it finished. It’s as much of an ending your going to get in comics where the characters are reoccurring. Hush was a complete story but he still came back and was explored in further depth. I’m just not a fan of Snyders run overall. Peaked with issue 6.

What you're saying, at least as far as I understand it, is what I was trying to say. It's not that characters come back - it's that the setups and tensions that Snyder raises in the story aren't paid off or released in a satisfying way to me.