Will WBD erase Superman from the DCEU? If WBD does so will you blame Cavill?

[Jeffrey2]

Prior to the merger WB had decided to erase Superman from the DCEU via Flash and replace him with Supergirl as the DCEU's sole Kryptonian. The question was would WBD continue down that path or reincorporate Superman into the DCEU. Seemingly no negotiations between WBD and Cavill are taking place and there is a new hint, the Shazam trailer recently dropped, that Superman may not exist in the DCEU. Shazam does exist in the DCEU as shown by the trailer which features several jl members including Batman but no Superman. This has stirred some social media speculation that Supes is out of the DCEU. I hadn't seen the trailer until reading about it and sure enough there is no Superman - faceless or not. I don't know if WBD would make a final decision on Superman's DCEU fate until the new head of DC films is in place. Guess we'll know soon enough.

Question - if WBD does erase Superman will you blame Cavill? Before you answer consider this:

Cavill was offered a cameo in Shazam 1 which he agreed to but backed out of at the last minute for some lame excuse. He was offered a cameo in Flash and apparently BA both of which he turned down. He was offered a supporting role in Supergirl which he turned down. Holding out for a guaranteed solo film before agreeing to any DCEU appearances. Apparently, WB offered a conditional solo film if his cameos and supporting roles turned out well. Yes, that is somewhat of a riverboat gamble but, if Cavill believed he could engage audiences as Superman in these appearances wouldn't you think he would go for it? There is no other way to get a Supes solo other than for Cavill to work for it, to prove he can engage audiences as Superman which he hasn't so far done. Cavill refusing everything and demanding everything not only means he is out it means Superman is likely out of the DCEU with WBD pivoting to a potential Abrams Black Superman project not set in the DCEU.

Again, will you blame Cavill if Superman is erased from the DCEU? I couldn't' figure out how to make this a poll which would have been nice.

[DochaDocha]

No, I don't. Is he 100% blameless? I don't think so, at least in the sense that if he signed whatever contract was in front of him his story would've continued. However, based on WB's track record, I'm guessing Cavill didn't sign the dotted line because whatever they had in store for him was kind of lame. Really, most of the blame goes WB's way if we get stuck in a Superman rut. If WB really wanted to get a Superman movie out, they'd have replaced Cavill a long time ago.

[Vordan]

We really don’t need 5 threads all variations of the same topic. Maybe we should just make a general “Superman in film” thread?

I don’t blame Cavill for holding out on WB, he was originally promised a Superman trilogy like what Bale got. WB should’ve either given him what he wanted or recasted the role rather than draw this **** out as long as it has. Hopefully we’ll get a definitive “in or out” status update soon.

[manofsteel1979]

There's only one party I blame, and that is WB. Nothing is stopping them from just recasting the role. For whatever the reason they have not. They believe that they can mine the IP via a variation of Supergirl and or another variant Superman.

[Jeffrey2]

There's only one party I blame, and that is WB. Nothing is stopping them from just recasting the role. For whatever the reason they have not. They believe that they can mine the IP via a variation of Supergirl and or another variant Superman.

It seems WBD gave a bit while Cavill refused to give. And so, he is out. Cavill was first offered cameos and then supporting roles and then a conditional solo. Cavill said no and demanded apparently a high 8 figure salary. For a solo and some cameos. Cavill is not an A-lister and if he demanded such a salary, it's no surprise that Zaslov said no.

[Jeffrey2]

We really don’t need 5 threads all variations of the same topic. Maybe we should just make a general “Superman in film” thread?

I don’t blame Cavill for holding out on WB, he was originally promised a Superman trilogy like what Bale got. WB should’ve either given him what he wanted or recasted the role rather than draw this **** out as long as it has. Hopefully we’ll get a definitive “in or out” status update soon.

Agree Cavill got a raw deal but when Affleck was brought on board it was reported that it was because WB did not feel Cavill could carry a film on his own. Of course, bringing in Affleck as Batman immediately meant Cavill would be sidelined which he was. But what else could WB do? They were afraid of losing money on another solo Superman film. Which is why they would only offer Cavill cameos. He was not a guarantee to draw on his own at the box. When BvS was reviewed some Superman fans were upset that Affleck and Gadot got heaps of praise but the final scene between Superman and Lois (when he went off to his death at the hands of Doomsday) did not warrant a mention. WB gave it a good try but finally did cut Superman loose. Then the merger happened and some though that might revive Cavill's chances, but it didn't - even with a big boost from the Rock. unrealistic.

[JAK]

No, I don't blame him a bit. I look at how DC and WB have handled Superman over the years, and it was clear to me in the early 2000's that - stated or not - company practice was going with the assumption that "the character is the problem". I've been some level of pissed at them since that time, and that's well before I came to have as much of a general dislike of corporate power as I do now.

It's clear they don't care or understand the character beyond brand recognition - and even when they try (I stress try) to "play it safe" (Superman Returns) they have no clue what they're doing. Now, I don't assume Henry knows all of that history, but I know that if I were in his shoes, I'd be pushing for what I want because otherwise it's a giant crapshoot. Do I really want to trust the people who gave Singer and Snyder a shot but passed on MacQuarrie - and not just passed but apparently passed so hard that he was pretty harsh on WB on Twitter?

From https://****************/superman-ch...ie-never-again :

Friday on social media saw McQuarrie, the acclaimed producer, director, and an Academy Award-winning writer, respond to fan on Twitter who mentioned: "Sure would love a Superman movie from you."

Christopher McQuarrie replied to the tweet with: "I asked once. I will never ask again."

I asked once. I will never ask again.

— Christopher McQuarrie (@chrismcquarrie) January 31, 2020
Deadpool creator Rob Liefeld chimed in: "Shame on Warner Bros."

McQuarrie responded: "They have their own problems and I sympathize. Deeply. But after 25 years of hearing no, even an idiot like me gets the message. I go where I’m valued."

A fan then tweeted in response, "Nooooo...!" which saw McQuarrie reply: "You misspelled 'never.' And let me add: ever."

Another fan also questioned, "What if they ask you?"

"They won’t," replied McQuarrie.

Creatives who have any care for working with a studio again don't use words like "I go where I'm valued" publicly. They just don't.


Now, has Henry likely done some things that didn't help? I'm sure. I can likely symapthize with some of the decisions if I knew the specifics, but I'm sure this isn't just a one-sided thing. But once you add in years of DC and WB mismanagement of the character? No. This isn't his fault. WB took a bed that was at least decently well-made by Donner and the Salkinds (who had/have their own problems, but still) and spent decades both letting it languish and also chopping it up with a hatchet.

They worked with Jon Peters/etc on "Superman Lives" (DC's "Part One of let's take a Batman producer and filmmaker and let him fix Superman")

They didn't have any idea what they were doing and eventually went with "Let's copy Superman 1 but replace the heart and charm of it with... who knows what" ("Superman Returns")

They hired Nolan and Snyder for "Man of Steel" (DC's "Part Two of let's take a Batman producer and filmmaker and let him fix Superman")

They aren't responsible for what is still one of the most lasting interpretations of Superman in his live-action history (Donnerverse) because they couldn't get Adam West out of their heads when picturing a comic book movie.

They aren't responsible for the Superboy TV show.

This makes "Lois and Clark" and "Superman and Lois" outliers, at least in my opinion - and "The Death and Return of Superman" came from a group of very talented people who took the lemon DC gave them and made an amazing lemonade. As the saying goes, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

It's clear that you don't care for Cavill, and honestly that's fine. Believe me, I was sick to my stomach for a week after watching MoS, even to the point on posting "The Death of Superman" edits on my social media at the time. I *should* be right there with you, and if I hadn't seen "The Man From U.N.C.L.E." and "Enola Homes," I probably would be. But overall, this fits the WB's pattern of history with the character. And it's not just Superman, either - I can tell you stories of how they botched the "Elvis: That's The Way It Is - Special Edition" rollout (in 2001) so bad that it truly defies belief. Literally anyone on this board would know better, even after getting them completely drunk.

So they've made their bed, and now they have to lay in it. Sadly for us - at least for now - it's our bed, too.

[Mutant 77]

Unfortunately, Cavill is too old for the role now.

[JAK]

Unfortunately, Cavill is too old for the role now.

Nah. He's 39 - Ryan Reynolds is 45, and nobody's saying he's too old for Deadpool. I'm fine with replacing Cavill as a number of actors could pull off Superman well (the guy who wore the suit in "Peacemaker" might be great for it, for instance), but age shouldn't be the reason.

[Jeffrey2]

No, I don't blame him a bit. I look at how DC and WB have handled Superman over the years, and it was clear to me in the early 2000's that - stated or not - company practice was going with the assumption that "the character is the problem". I've been some level of pissed at them since that time, and that's well before I came to have as much of a general dislike of corporate power as I do now.

It's clear they don't care or understand the character beyond brand recognition - and even when they try (I stress try) to "play it safe" (Superman Returns) they have no clue what they're doing. Now, I don't assume Henry knows all of that history, but I know that if I were in his shoes, I'd be pushing for what I want because otherwise it's a giant crapshoot. Do I really want to trust the people who gave Singer and Snyder a shot but passed on MacQuarrie - and not just passed but apparently passed so hard that he was pretty harsh on WB on Twitter?

From https://****************/superman-ch...ie-never-again :



Creatives who have any care for working with a studio again don't use words like "I go where I'm valued" publicly. They just don't.


Now, has Henry likely done some things that didn't help? I'm sure. I can likely symapthize with some of the decisions if I knew the specifics, but I'm sure this isn't just a one-sided thing. But once you add in years of DC and WB mismanagement of the character? No. This isn't his fault. WB took a bed that was at least decently well-made by Donner and the Salkinds (who had/have their own problems, but still) and spent decades both letting it languish and also chopping it up with a hatchet.

They worked with Jon Peters/etc on "Superman Lives" (DC's "Part One of let's take a Batman producer and filmmaker and let him fix Superman")

They didn't have any idea what they were doing and eventually went with "Let's copy Superman 1 but replace the heart and charm of it with... who knows what" ("Superman Returns")

They hired Nolan and Snyder for "Man of Steel" (DC's "Part Two of let's take a Batman producer and filmmaker and let him fix Superman")

They aren't responsible for what is still one of the most lasting interpretations of Superman in his live-action history (Donnerverse) because they couldn't get Adam West out of their heads when picturing a comic book movie.

They aren't responsible for the Superboy TV show.

This makes "Lois and Clark" and "Superman and Lois" outliers, at least in my opinion - and "The Death and Return of Superman" came from a group of very talented people who took the lemon DC gave them and made an amazing lemonade. As the saying goes, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

It's clear that you don't care for Cavill, and honestly that's fine. Believe me, I was sick to my stomach for a week after watching MoS, even to the point on posting "The Death of Superman" edits on my social media at the time. I *should* be right there with you, and if I hadn't seen "The Man From U.N.C.L.E." and "Enola Homes," I probably would be. But overall, this fits the WB's pattern of history with the character. And it's not just Superman, either - I can tell you stories of how they botched the "Elvis: That's The Way It Is - Special Edition" rollout (in 2001) so bad that it truly defies belief. Literally anyone on this board would know better, even after getting them completely drunk.

So they've made their bed, and now they have to lay in it. Sadly for us - at least for now - it's our bed, too.

I don't blame the new regime and Zaslov until they prove they are at fault too. The underwhelming SDCC WB presentation is a carryover from the old regime. If they go with the Abrams project, it will be because it is safer (financially) than a "traditional" Superman film with a recast as finding another Superman actor could take months and months or longer. Many actors won't touch the role - the kind of actor with the talent to bring the role to life. And a period piece set in its own universe where Superman does not have the expansive history/powers he does in DCEU and does not have a rogue's gallery of villains costing a bundle to bring to the screen will cost far less to make. It sounds like it will be more a low-key film with a social justice down-to-earth story not demanding huge FX. Still WBD have sent it back for a rewrite as it has too little action. If WBD can make the film on a Joker budget it is much less a financial risk than another Superman film which would cost hundreds of millions to make and a hefty paycheck/cut for Cavill if they had continued with him. Not a surprise Zaslov said no. BTW, it's not a guarantee they move forward with the Abrams project - they may simply pass on more Superman.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

We really don’t need 5 threads all variations of the same topic. Maybe we should just make a general “Superman in film” thread?

I don’t blame Cavill for holding out on WB, he was originally promised a Superman trilogy like what Bale got. WB should’ve either given him what he wanted or recasted the role rather than draw this **** out as long as it has. Hopefully we’ll get a definitive “in or out” status update soon.

Agreed. We've got so many of these Cavill threads now all saying the same thing. Just combine them all into one.

[JAK]

I don't blame the new regime and Zaslov until they prove they are at fault too. The underwhelming SDCC WB presentation is a carryover from the old regime. If they go with the Abrams project, it will be because it is safer (financially) than a "traditional" Superman film with a recast as finding another Superman actor could take months and months or longer. Many actors won't touch the role - the kind of actor with the talent to bring the role to life. And a period piece set in its own universe where Superman does not have the expansive history/powers he does in DCEU and does not have a rogue's gallery of villains costing a bundle to bring to the screen will cost far less to make. It sounds like it will be more a low-key film with a social justice down-to-earth story not demanding huge FX. Still WBD have sent it back for a rewrite as it has too little action. If WBD can make the film on a Joker budget it is much less a financial risk than another Superman film which would cost hundreds of millions to make and a hefty paycheck/cut for Cavill if they had continued with him. Not a surprise Zaslov said no.

I'm not really blaming or praising Zaslov right now. He hasn't done anything either direction yet. So that remains to be seen. However, 90% of what we're dealing with is from the old regime - to be honest, several old regimes. The fact that several decades of regimes have failed the character means that Zaslov isn't starting with a fresh slate - he has something to prove (that he's different), whether he realizes that or not. WB doesn't just get a pass on past history, as the average person has no clue who he is.

When he does something, then we'll know if it's something different or just "meet the new boss, same as the old boss (just tighter-fisted)"

I would suggest that "Not a surprise Zaslov said no" is a bit of an early call. It's just as likely that he's waiting for "his Feige" before any major decisions happen. I'm also of the opinion that a classic Superman can absolutely be done on a budget (imagine taking Superman and Lois's creative team and beefing that up for cinema - it honestly wouldn't take as much as it would seem to get there). In fact, I'd kinda like some lower-key live action superhero projects for a change (particularly Ninja Turtles, though that's a whole other topic).

[Jeffrey2]

I'm not really blaming or praising Zaslov right now. He hasn't done anything either direction yet. So that remains to be seen. However, 90% of what we're dealing with is from the old regime - to be honest, several old regimes. The fact that several decades of regimes have failed the character means that Zaslov isn't starting with a fresh slate - he has something to prove (that he's different), whether he realizes that or not. WB doesn't just get a pass on past history, as the average person has no clue who he is.

When he does something, then we'll know if it's something different or just "meet the new boss, same as the old boss (just tighter-fisted)"

I would suggest that "Not a surprise Zaslov said no" is a bit of an early call. It's just as likely that he's waiting for "his Feige" before any major decisions happen. I'm also of the opinion that a classic Superman can absolutely be done on a budget (imagine taking Superman and Lois's creative team and beefing that up for cinema - it honestly wouldn't take as much as it would seem to get there). In fact, I'd kinda like some lower-key live action superhero projects for a change (particularly Ninja Turtles, though that's a whole other topic).

It looks as if Batfleck may sign a new contract for solo films and JL. Zaslov wants a JL film and seemingly thinks Batman is critical for that film. That is a huge change as the previous suits dropped Affleck. It looks too as if they are going back to a shared DCEU which IMO is a good move. Characters appearing in other character's films and building to the JL redo. WW is rumored to be making an appearance in Shazam 2 and of course Batfleck is in Flash, Aquaman 2 and maybe Batgirl. The Shazam producers sort of teased BA vs Shazam as on the plate.

I don't think they do Fandome this year. I do think that shortly after the new DC films chief is in place, they will do some kind of event and announce a slew of things such as the resigning of Affleck and maybe BA vs Shazam. And some surprises - many fans want a Batman/WW (Ben and Gal have incredible chemistry - watch out JLO) film so a crossover there is a possibility. That event has to make waves and if it does Zaslov will have passed the test - for the intermediate term anyway. Just announcing Affleck's return to the DCEU will bring down the house. The confirmation of his being in Aquaman 2 is blowing up social media. Anyway, fingers crossed.

BTW, relegating Superman to the small screen is not a bad thing. Tyler and Bitsie are this generation's Supes/Clark and Lois. Doing some HBO stuff with them would guarantee a larger budget but not require the budget of a big-screen Superman film.

[JAK]

It looks as if Batfleck may sign a new contract for solo films and JL. Zaslov wants a JL film and seemingly thinks Batman is critical for that film. That is a huge change as the previous suits dropped Affleck. It looks too as if they are going back to a shared DCEU which IMO is a good move. Characters appearing in other character's films and building to the JL redo. WW is rumored to be making an appearance in Shazam 2 and of course Batfleck is in Flash, Aquaman 2 and maybe Batgirl. The Shazam producers sort of teased BA vs Shazam as on the plate.

I'm not sure if Affleck would want back in. But most of the movie business is a personality game, so if Zaslov (or who he hires) and Affleck hit it off, who knows. But I could see Affleck doing the cameo thing. Good money, not a lot of time, generally easy-peasy. BA vs Shazam is definitely something I knew would happen sooner or later, as (iirc) Johnson was/is a producer and has a hand in the Shazam films (as a gateway for Black Adam, maybe?). I know he was on Insta just after Shazam's release talking about "a movie we just put out."

I don't think they do Fandome this year. I do think that shortly after the new DC films chief is in place, they will do some kind of event and announce a slew of things such as the resigning of Affleck and maybe BA vs Shazam. And some surprises - many fans want a Batman/WW (Ben and Gal have incredible chemistry - watch out JLO) film so a crossover there is a possibility. That event has to make waves and if it does Zaslov will have passed the test - for the intermediate term anyway. Just announcing Affleck's return to the DCEU will bring down the house. The confirmation of his being in Aquaman 2 is blowing up social media. Anyway, fingers crossed.

Agreed on likely no FanDome. And that could very well happen on BM/WW. I think it's all kinda up in the air now, so just about anything can happen.

BTW, relegating Superman to the small screen is not a bad thing. Tyler and Bitsie are this generation's Supes/Clark and Lois. Doing some HBO stuff with them would guarantee a larger budget but not require the budget of a big-screen Superman film.

Oh, you're definitely preaching to the choir there, as I'd love for them to continue indefinitely. I'm just saying that what they can do on the small screen shows that you don't need a nutbar budget to do something good with Superman, even in cinemas.

"The League of Super-Pets" was also REALLY good, and I'd be fine with Superman being in that realm for a while.

[Jeffrey2]

I'm not sure if Affleck would want back in. But most of the movie business is a personality game, so if Zaslov (or who he hires) and Affleck hit it off, who knows. But I could see Affleck doing the cameo thing. Good money, not a lot of time, generally easy-peasy. BA vs Shazam is definitely something I knew would happen sooner or later, as (iirc) Johnson was/is a producer and has a hand in the Shazam films (as a gateway for Black Adam, maybe?). I know he was on Insta just after Shazam's release talking about "a movie we just put out."



Agreed on likely no FanDome. And that could very well happen on BM/WW. I think it's all kinda up in the air now, so just about anything can happen.



Oh, you're definitely preaching to the choir there, as I'd love for them to continue indefinitely. I'm just saying that what they can do on the small screen shows that you don't need a nutbar budget to do something good with Superman, even in cinemas.

"The League of Super-Pets" was also REALLY good, and I'd be fine with Superman being in that realm for a while.

Affleck is from all I hear well liked in Hollywood. It appears Zaslov is chasing after him to do solos and especially the JL redo. Speculation he has already signed on. The Mamoa leak was staged by WB no doubt. The only issue may be time - does he want to do a Batflick every 2/3 years? Maybe not but I suspect he can write his own check and actually demand a high 8 figure salary. LOL!. Although Affleck is not known for over-the-top salary demands. He is known for wanting some creative control.

The effort at finding a recast for Cavill is so daunting that WBD does not seem to even be considering it. But just think if Tyler was available. Lordy it would rock to see him as the big screen Superman, but TV actors do not cross to film for the same role. If only.