In a bleak real world like this, we need the classic Superman again

[Mutant 77]

The classic Superman on comic books, movies, TV series.

Tyler is the right direction.

We're living in a terrible world right now. Pandemy. World War III. Poverty. Social disorders. Political confusion. Violent videogames. Kids killing each other. No education or culture. No empathy.
The "real" world is 100% a mess.
We don't need Batman-type characters anymore. Leave Batman alone, don't try to steal and copy his formula over and over and over. It's getting ridiculous. We already live in a nihilistic world. We just need a real superhero, positive and filled with values. We need hope.

So please, Warner Bros, don't nolanize Superman anymore. We don't need heat vision-glowing rage eyes. We don't need an updated costume. We don't need a tragic past. We don't need a tormented and brooding attitude. We don't need Kryptonian enemies destroying Metropolis.

We need Superman. We wanna dream a better world.

Thank you, Warner, if you're reading.

[Kirk Brent]

I completely agree about Iconic Superman. The most frustrating thing about being a Superman fan these days (in all media) is that we need the Real Steel Deal now more than ever. He was created in a time of darkness and provided inspiration, catharsis, and entertainment. WBD/DC still doesn't understand that. Their execs still see a good man who does the right thing because it's the right thing and who puts everyone before himself as "old-fashioned" and "corny" and "outdated." I maintain that a film adaptation of Iconic Superman would be a massive global hit if it was made by creators who know, understand, and love the character. Bill Bird is just one.

I'd also love to see Batman regain his humanity. Comic book readers of many years (decades in my case) know that Batman's humanity is his greatest strength, not his ability to plan or his gadgets. He wouldn't do what he does if he didn't have limitless compassion and courage. It's also been shown that Bruce enjoys being Batman, not because he gets to break bones or frighten criminals like Miller's paramilitary thug, but because he has hope. He can smile and be shown to enjoy his crusade without instantly becoming a parody like the 60s show.

[Ascended]

I think you'll find that most everyone agrees, but most everyone will disagree on what exactly "classic" means.

[JAK]

The classic Superman on comic books, movies, TV series.

Tyler is the right direction.

We're living in a terrible world right now. Pandemy. World War III. Poverty. Social disorders. Political confusion. Violent videogames. Kids killing each other. No education or culture. No empathy.
The "real" world is 100% a mess.

I agree - though the violent video games aren't something I see as an issue in and of themselves (I certainly played them, and I'm as much a fan of classic Superman as almost anyone). If we did a better job looking out for each other as a society, there would be a lot more empathy in the world.

We don't need Batman-type characters anymore. Leave Batman alone, don't try to steal and copy his formula over and over and over. It's getting ridiculous. We already live in a nihilistic world. We just need a real superhero, positive and filled with values. We need hope.

So please, Warner Bros, don't nolanize Superman anymore. We don't need heat vision-glowing rage eyes. We don't need an updated costume. We don't need a tragic past. We don't need a tormented and brooding attitude. We don't need Kryptonian enemies destroying Metropolis.

We need Superman. We wanna dream a better world.

Thank you, Warner, if you're reading.

Batman and his like can be around - but I completely agree that they need to stop trying to force an S-shaped peg into a Bat-shaped hole. If they're smart, they'll look at what people love about Superman and Lois and work out from there.

I completely agree about Iconic Superman. The most frustrating thing about being a Superman fan these days (in all media) is that we need the Real Steel Deal now more than ever. He was created in a time of darkness and provided inspiration, catharsis, and entertainment. WBD/DC still doesn't understand that. Their execs still see a good man who does the right thing because it's the right thing and who puts everyone before himself as "old-fashioned" and "corny" and "outdated." I maintain that a film adaptation of Iconic Superman would be a massive global hit if it was made by creators who know, understand, and love the character. Bill Bird is just one.

Wow, reading "the Real Steel Deal" brought a much bigger blast of nostalgia than even I realized it would! But yeah - if there was ever a time to push forward with a strong "can-do" Superman, it's now.

I'd also love to see Batman regain his humanity. Comic book readers of many years (decades in my case) know that Batman's humanity is his greatest strength, not his ability to plan or his gadgets. He wouldn't do what he does if he didn't have limitless compassion and courage. It's also been shown that Bruce enjoys being Batman, not because he gets to break bones or frighten criminals like Miller's paramilitary thug, but because he has hope. He can smile and be shown to enjoy his crusade without instantly becoming a parody like the 60s show.

Yeah, I'd like to see this, too. It would be interesting if that's the trajectory of the Battinson films, but we'll see.

I think you'll find that most everyone agrees, but most everyone will disagree on what exactly "classic" means.

That's very true. Though I think taking the flashback episode of "Superman & Lois" (episode 11, iirc) and expanding out from there would be a decent start - and, as you and I have said many times (again, iirc) the Golden Age Superman or some slightly updated version of the same could really strike a chord in people today in a way that wouldn't have been possible in the 60's/etc.

Just to play Luthor's advocate (insert joke groan here): while everyone has a specific idea of what their classic Superman is, I do think that (especially for movies) there's a sort of general idea that people can more-or-less go with, even if it's not their own idealized version of "classic". I'd put the Superman we got in Super-Pets as loosely fitting that idea. I'd also think that some Bronze Age stories could possibly work and be considered "classic," as well.

[Kirk Brent]

I think you'll find that most everyone agrees, but most everyone will disagree on what exactly "classic" means.

Indeed, though I think most people would agree on that. As much as I love the classic uniform and believe it can be done extremely well (Routh's KC suit), I understand if TPTB want to use a different design and so I don't include it in what's absolutely necessary to an Iconic Superman portrayals.

Here's what I think an Iconic Superman film/story must include:

- the Kents are the source of Clark Kent's morality: selfless, hard-working, and noble people who teach Clark about the value of all life and of all people from the moment he's old enough to understand.

- the Kents encourage Clark to protect himself and their family life when using his abilities but never at the expense of defending the defenseless and helping those in need. Unlike NotMartha Kent's sentiments in BvS, the Kents teach Clark that his powers are meant to be used for everyone's benefit.

- Clark is intelligent and pro-active as a young man after Smallville, knowing what wants to do (help those in need) but not exactly how. He's not an aimless, wandering hobo who destroys semi trucks out of petty spite or who uses his powers without consideration of the damage they can do to the people and world around him. He seeks out a career that will allow him to protect others without using his powers. JMS did a great job of exploring this in Earth One and I'd love to see it on film.

- Clark's advanced senses have gifted him with an awareness of life that few others on Earth have. He hears and sees and even feels things humans aren't even aware or possible and has experienced a myriad of forms of life growing up on a farm. Like Maggin portrayed him in Miracle Monday, he laments the death of even a dog while still a boy. He doesn't have to "learn that killing is wrong" to know that it's wrong. He's seen death in ways we can't imagine, even with the assistance of technology. As a result, he doesn't kill, ever, under no circumstances.

- Superman doesn't use fear and intimidation and violence when dealing with criminals. In fact, he is first and foremost a defender and savior of those in need. The people that complained "Superman didn't punch anyone" in Superman Returns either don't know Superman or failed to recognize the true problems of the film. A Superman movie should have tons of action and adventure, but by no means should Superman be violent. Violence is always a last resort and, especially to Superman, a failure.

- Superman is kind and considerate and does the right thing because it's the right thing to do. He's gentle and confident, not brooding and angst-ridden.

- Superman's mythos is rich and complex, extending from the miracle world of Krypton to the sci-fi wonders of Metropolis and the DCU and everywhere in between. He can do just about anything and therefore shouldn't be limited to fighting robots or slugfests with powerhouse villains or even remaining on Earth all the time. Special effects wizards still haven't been allowed to fully exploit the scale and scope and reach of Superman and his world.

I think most people will agree that the above is much of what makes "Iconic Superman" or "Classic Superman." The character is not and never has been "a problem." The problem has always been WB and DC execs too cynical and jaded to give Superman his due.

[DABellWrites]

Indeed, though I think most people would agree on that. As much as I love the classic uniform and believe it can be done extremely well (Routh's KC suit), I understand if TPTB want to use a different design and so I don't include it in what's absolutely necessary to an Iconic Superman portrayals.

Here's what I think an Iconic Superman film/story must include:

- the Kents are the source of Clark Kent's morality: selfless, hard-working, and noble people who teach Clark about the value of all life and of all people from the moment he's old enough to understand.

- the Kents encourage Clark to protect himself and their family life when using his abilities but never at the expense of defending the defenseless and helping those in need. Unlike NotMartha Kent's sentiments in BvS, the Kents teach Clark that his powers are meant to be used for everyone's benefit.

- Clark is intelligent and pro-active as a young man after Smallville, knowing what wants to do (help those in need) but not exactly how. He's not an aimless, wandering hobo who destroys semi trucks out of petty spite or who uses his powers without consideration of the damage they can do to the people and world around him. He seeks out a career that will allow him to protect others without using his powers. JMS did a great job of exploring this in Earth One and I'd love to see it on film.

- Clark's advanced senses have gifted him with an awareness of life that few others on Earth have. He hears and sees and even feels things humans aren't even aware or possible and has experienced a myriad of forms of life growing up on a farm. Like Maggin portrayed him in Miracle Monday, he laments the death of even a dog while still a boy. He doesn't have to "learn that killing is wrong" to know that it's wrong. He's seen death in ways we can't imagine, even with the assistance of technology. As a result, he doesn't kill, ever, under no circumstances.

- Superman doesn't use fear and intimidation and violence when dealing with criminals. In fact, he is first and foremost a defender and savior of those in need. The people that complained "Superman didn't punch anyone" in Superman Returns either don't know Superman or failed to recognize the true problems of the film. A Superman movie should have tons of action and adventure, but by no means should Superman be violent. Violence is always a last resort and, especially to Superman, a failure.

- Superman is kind and considerate and does the right thing because it's the right thing to do. He's gentle and confident, not brooding and angst-ridden.

- Superman's mythos is rich and complex, extending from the miracle world of Krypton to the sci-fi wonders of Metropolis and the DCU and everywhere in between. He can do just about anything and therefore shouldn't be limited to fighting robots or slugfests with powerhouse villains or even remaining on Earth all the time. Special effects wizards still haven't been allowed to fully exploit the scale and scope and reach of Superman and his world.

I think most people will agree that the above is much of what makes "Iconic Superman" or "Classic Superman." The character is not and never has been "a problem." The problem has always been WB and DC execs too cynical and jaded to give Superman his due.

I'm going to disagree with your last sentence. I will definitely say the image of Superman has been a problem.

[manwhohaseverything]

I don't understand the point of this thread..The batman was a success...Story demands what the tone should be..If you are going to put boundaries on what type stories can be told with a character.The continual repeatations may lead to people getting bored..
Better world..smaller world..side world..People want to be entertained.. Main point of any character

[Agent Z]

Every time someone says this, I wonder how they think "classic Superman" is going to fix any of this. These problems aren't new. They've existed long before Superman was created and continued to exist long after. This just comes across like more whining about a Superman you don't like existing instead of just following the one you do like. At this rate Superman fans are on par with Star Wars fans when it comes to hating what they supposedly love.

[HsssH]

Every time someone says this, I wonder how they think "classic Superman" is going to fix any of this. These problems aren't new. They've existed long before Superman was created and continued to exist long after. This just comes across like more whining about a Superman you don't like existing instead of just following the one you do like. At this rate Superman fans are on par with StarcWars fans when it comes to hating what they supposedly love.

No, we hated Superman before Star Wars fans started hating Star Wars.

[JAK]

Every time someone says this, I wonder how they think "classic Superman" is going to fix any of this. These problems aren't new. They've existed long before Superman was created and continued to exist long after. This just comes across like more whining about a Superman you don't like existing instead of just following the one you do like. At this rate Superman fans are on par with StarcWars fans when it comes to hating what they supposedly love.

I can't speak for the others, but for me: I see it as Superman should have a few lanes that he occupies that set him apart from much of what we see in superhero pop culture. It's not so much about a direct fix because you're right - but especially when most characters we see have some kind of compromise or tragedy to make their altruism more dramatic, I like that characters exist who have tragedy but don't let it define them or have said tragedy as their driving force. The inspiration that can come from that existing is important, I think. It was certainly something I gravitated to as a kid.

I will say that part of this call for the classic always being there is because we don't often get Superman depictions, so when one comes and it isn't, that sets us back a while before the next one (unlike Batman, who only goes a few years between versions, generally, if that). If that wasn't the case, then there might not be as much of a call since different versions would/could hit different groups in a way that they like.

[Mutant 77]

Every time someone says this, I wonder how they think "classic Superman" is going to fix any of this. These problems aren't new. They've existed long before Superman was created and continued to exist long after. This just comes across like more whining about a Superman you don't like existing instead of just following the one you do like. At this rate Superman fans are on par with StarcWars fans when it comes to hating what they supposedly love.

I don't hate modern Superman at all. I don't hate Post-Crisis Superman as well as any other Post-Crisis iterations we got.

That's just a feeling I have.

[DABellWrites]

The classic Superman on comic books, movies, TV series.

Tyler is the right direction.

We're living in a terrible world right now. Pandemy. World War III. Poverty. Social disorders. Political confusion. Violent videogames. Kids killing each other. No education or culture. No empathy.
The "real" world is 100% a mess.
We don't need Batman-type characters anymore. Leave Batman alone, don't try to steal and copy his formula over and over and over. It's getting ridiculous. We already live in a nihilistic world. We just need a real superhero, positive and filled with values. We need hope.

So please, Warner Bros, don't nolanize Superman anymore. We don't need heat vision-glowing rage eyes. We don't need an updated costume. We don't need a tragic past. We don't need a tormented and brooding attitude. We don't need Kryptonian enemies destroying Metropolis.

We need Superman. We wanna dream a better world.

Thank you, Warner, if you're reading.

A lot of Jerry Siegel's pre-WW2 (America entering the war) stories are still relevant in today's landscape. Stock market manipulation, slumlords, corrupted politicians, etc. It was a dark world back then. What is the difference? Superman reminded apolitical for decades and lived good ol' Americana.

[ironman2978]

Haven't watched CW Superman. Gave up ten minutes into the first episode when Clark tells a kid his mother made his suit for him.

But you know I'm there on Golden Age Superman. Right there with you. *That* is the Superman who can connect with people today. The original S&S era, Morrison's t-shirt Springsteen Superman, Tom DeHaven's It's Superman! novel, the Flesicher shorts, Superman Smashes the Klan......these create the blueprint WB/DC could follow to a resurgence in Clark's popularity and relevance, if they only had the wisdom to see it.

That's not what most people think of when they think of the "classic" Superman. But it *is* the version that will speak most deeply to most people.....once they get over the differences and reconcile what OG Clark looks like compared to the vague, semi-formless ideal of the "classic" version most normal folk (ie., not us, who know the character) have in their heads.

I always thought and maintain, that a golden age-esque (Fleischer/New 52 Morrison/Smashes the Klan/It's Superman/New Frontier) Superman would be perfect in this post 2020 election type of world. (Also Birthright had a golden/Silver&bronze age Superman with elements of Smallville, STAS and Post Crisis that worked brilliantly). Having a rough around the edges Clark figuring out his way in the world, dealing with real world evils before facing something like Brainiac & the Mechanical Men, Parasite/Metallo/Toyman, etc. Maybe in a The Batman/Spider-Man Homecoming style film.

Plus Matt Reeves and Robert Pattinson made a Kurt Cobain style year 2 Batman work, I feel like a Elvis/Bruce Springsteen influenced Golden Age Year 0-2 style Superman would really make a positive impact and would definitely do wonders for Superman's image with the right writer/director/cast and crew/imagination.


But the biggest thing besides the people in charge and their limited view point of what Superman is the image people have garnered of Superman vs the character he actually is or even potentially could be.

A lot of Jerry Siegel's pre-WW2 (America entering the war) stories are still relevant in today's landscape. Stock market manipulation, slumlords, corrupted politicians, etc. It was a dark world back then. What is the difference? Superman reminded apolitical for decades and lived good ol' Americana.

This but even if Superman the character was written as apolitical, the writers who handled the character or even what they thought of Superman/America seeped through in one way or the other.

I think so, yes. There just has to be a balance, where he shows different sides to himself in different contexts. He can comfort a kid but still bully a bully, spend one day living simply on the farm and the next day decoding Kryptonian tech in the Fortress, stand up to corruption but also cooperate with authority, etc.

I think that's the thing. Other characters are allowed a chance to be versatile/diverse characters (Look at Aquaman when Peter David writes him vs when Geoff writes him, all done with the mythos of the Flash or Green Lantern for better or worse, the myriad of Spidey, Cap, or Iron Man stories, or Wonder Woman, or even better yet had diverse the Batman franchise has became and the potential to be). Even underutilized, they have been written and handled and depicted in so many different ways from their status quo to their supporting cast to their costumes, they are given a certain amount of freedom as their respective IPs has allowed them to have. It's unfortunate that they are more flexible than what Superman is given. Honestly if given more creative freedom at an earlier stage (arguable post crisis or the 70's or even that boon with Superman Returns came out), I think it would have done a lot of good for the character than what it is now.

Imagine if we got comics like Secret Identity, Space Age, Smashes the Klan, the Earth one trilogy, Birthright, Superman of Smallville, Superman and the Authority, PKJ's Warworld saga, Grant Morrison New 52 origin, American Alien, Superman & Lois during the trinity era. Would the franchise be looked at different than it is today?

[D.Z]

The world is getting better than ever.

[JAK]

I think so, yes. There just has to be a balance, where he shows different sides to himself in different contexts. He can comfort a kid but still bully a bully, spend one day living simply on the farm and the next day decoding Kryptonian tech in the Fortress, stand up to corruption but also cooperate with authority, etc.

I like the nuance that's potentially in this. None of us act quite the same depending on the situation or who's around us, and this could be a great way to show that in Superman and give him a fleshed-out personality.

The mcu has been doing this... It's a bit blah! now.. the suit represents Clark's convictions.it represents where he comes from for me.

Granted i don't think tights feel this dirty or labour intensive any more.(something that needs to be addressed). It's feels just a cosplay now..

It does represent his convictions, but it depends on who he's talking to. I don't want him stand-offish and stoic or whatever to a kid, but very open and fun - to make the kids feel safe, if nothing else.

To me, I think if there's any hero who can get away with a simpler costume, it's Superman. Like I've often said, if you're about to die and a man in a pink tutu saves you, you'll learn to love the sight of that pink tutu. So as long as the suit is solidly made, I don't care about the rest. To me, the busier suits look almost too busy now.

I always thought and maintain, that a golden age-esque (Fleischer/New 52 Morrison/Smashes the Klan/It's Superman/New Frontier) Superman would be perfect in this post 2020 election type of world. (Also Birthright had a golden/Silver&bronze age Superman with elements of Smallville, STAS and Post Crisis that worked brilliantly). Having a rough around the edges Clark figuring out his way in the world, dealing with real world evils before facing something like Brainiac & the Mechanical Men, Parasite/Metallo/Toyman, etc. Maybe in a The Batman/Spider-Man Homecoming style film.

Plus Matt Reeves and Robert Pattinson made a Kurt Cobain style year 2 Batman work, I feel like a Elvis/Bruce Springsteen influenced Golden Age Year 0-2 style Superman would really make a positive impact and would definitely do wonders for Superman's image with the right writer/director/cast and crew/imagination.

Agreed.

But the biggest thing besides the people in charge and their limited view point of what Superman is the image people have garnered of Superman vs the character he actually is or even potentially could be.

True... but I think one influences the other, and if the mixture is just right, people can go along with quite a bit if it vibes right with them.

This but even if Superman the character was written as apolitical, the writers who handled the character or even what they thought of Superman/America seeped through in one way or the other.

Yeah, as much as everything is politicized these days, you just kinda have to listen to your gut and go with it.. because someone will always say something's too political if you have him do anything besides fight aliens or whatever.

I think that's the thing. Other characters are allowed a chance to be versatile/diverse characters (Look at Aquaman when Peter David writes him vs when Geoff writes him, all done with the mythos of the Flash or Green Lantern for better or worse, the myriad of Spidey, Cap, or Iron Man stories, or Wonder Woman, or even better yet had diverse the Batman franchise has became and the potential to be). Even underutilized, they have been written and handled and depicted in so many different ways from their status quo to their supporting cast to their costumes, they are given a certain amount of freedom as their respective IPs has allowed them to have. It's unfortunate that they are more flexible than what Superman is given. Honestly if given more creative freedom at an earlier stage (arguable post crisis or the 70's or even that boon with Superman Returns came out), I think it would have done a lot of good for the character than what it is now.

Imagine if we got comics like Secret Identity, Space Age, Smashes the Klan, the Earth one trilogy, Birthright, Superman of Smallville, Superman and the Authority, PKJ's Warworld saga, Grant Morrison New 52 origin, American Alien, Superman & Lois during the trinity era. Would the franchise be looked at different than it is today?

I often think that, as good as "The Death and Return of Superman" was (and is, imo), it got DC going on the while "event"-driven story kick, and that really hurt creativity. I often wonder what stories we could have had if the Triangle Era team had been allowed to just write their stories and be left alone. They built a pretty nice history before then - and honestly even after - but they've said that they had to deal with DC always wanting a big event in every book line and that it was taxing.