In a bleak real world like this, we need the classic Superman again

[Lightning Rider]

I think the question is the idea of classic Superman actually was vs what fans think Superman is/should be, is there ever going to be a Superman that would actually please everyone across the board?(Young Justice vs DCAU fans , MOS vs Returns, Smallville vs S&L, etc)

I think so, yes. There just has to be a balance, where he shows different sides to himself in different contexts. He can comfort a kid but still bully a bully, spend one day living simply on the farm and the next day decoding Kryptonian tech in the Fortress, stand up to corruption but also cooperate with authority, etc.

[Mutant 77]

Every time someone says this, I wonder how they think "classic Superman" is going to fix any of this. These problems aren't new. They've existed long before Superman was created and continued to exist long after. This just comes across like more whining about a Superman you don't like existing instead of just following the one you do like. At this rate Superman fans are on par with StarcWars fans when it comes to hating what they supposedly love.

I don't hate modern Superman at all. I don't hate Post-Crisis Superman as well as any other Post-Crisis iterations we got.

That's just a feeling I have.

[JAK]

The issue is that what these people want of Classic Superman has been almost everywhere since 2016 and these complaints still persist. These fans are getting what they want and it somehow still isn't enough for them.

AndI don't know how you can say we don't often get Superman depictions when he's the most exposed DC character behind only Batman.

Oh, I mean cinematically - sorry, that's my bad for not clairiying on that. We've certainly had more depictions lately, true - but part of the problem is the DC/WB is still a lot more hesitant when a Superman project doesn't meet expectations than when a Batman one doesn't. It'll take a while (and a consistent change in strategy over a larger period of time) for that taste to be out of people's mouths.

I went back and re-read the start of the thread and I'm not sure why comics were also listed - my mind just never goes to comics when on this topic, because 99.9999% of the time it refers to mediums outside of that. I'd agree with you 100% on the comics front, even if I think the pre-Bendis Rebirth era should have been a lot longer.

[DABellWrites]

Indeed, though I think most people would agree on that. As much as I love the classic uniform and believe it can be done extremely well (Routh's KC suit), I understand if TPTB want to use a different design and so I don't include it in what's absolutely necessary to an Iconic Superman portrayals.

Here's what I think an Iconic Superman film/story must include:

- the Kents are the source of Clark Kent's morality: selfless, hard-working, and noble people who teach Clark about the value of all life and of all people from the moment he's old enough to understand.

- the Kents encourage Clark to protect himself and their family life when using his abilities but never at the expense of defending the defenseless and helping those in need. Unlike NotMartha Kent's sentiments in BvS, the Kents teach Clark that his powers are meant to be used for everyone's benefit.

- Clark is intelligent and pro-active as a young man after Smallville, knowing what wants to do (help those in need) but not exactly how. He's not an aimless, wandering hobo who destroys semi trucks out of petty spite or who uses his powers without consideration of the damage they can do to the people and world around him. He seeks out a career that will allow him to protect others without using his powers. JMS did a great job of exploring this in Earth One and I'd love to see it on film.

- Clark's advanced senses have gifted him with an awareness of life that few others on Earth have. He hears and sees and even feels things humans aren't even aware or possible and has experienced a myriad of forms of life growing up on a farm. Like Maggin portrayed him in Miracle Monday, he laments the death of even a dog while still a boy. He doesn't have to "learn that killing is wrong" to know that it's wrong. He's seen death in ways we can't imagine, even with the assistance of technology. As a result, he doesn't kill, ever, under no circumstances.

- Superman doesn't use fear and intimidation and violence when dealing with criminals. In fact, he is first and foremost a defender and savior of those in need. The people that complained "Superman didn't punch anyone" in Superman Returns either don't know Superman or failed to recognize the true problems of the film. A Superman movie should have tons of action and adventure, but by no means should Superman be violent. Violence is always a last resort and, especially to Superman, a failure.

- Superman is kind and considerate and does the right thing because it's the right thing to do. He's gentle and confident, not brooding and angst-ridden.

- Superman's mythos is rich and complex, extending from the miracle world of Krypton to the sci-fi wonders of Metropolis and the DCU and everywhere in between. He can do just about anything and therefore shouldn't be limited to fighting robots or slugfests with powerhouse villains or even remaining on Earth all the time. Special effects wizards still haven't been allowed to fully exploit the scale and scope and reach of Superman and his world.

I think most people will agree that the above is much of what makes "Iconic Superman" or "Classic Superman." The character is not and never has been "a problem." The problem has always been WB and DC execs too cynical and jaded to give Superman his due.

I'm going to disagree with your last sentence. I will definitely say the image of Superman has been a problem.

[Ascended]

That's very true. Though I think taking the flashback episode of "Superman & Lois" (episode 11, iirc) and expanding out from there would be a decent start - and, as you and I have said many times (again, iirc) the Golden Age Superman or some slightly updated version of the same could really strike a chord in people today in a way that wouldn't have been possible in the 60's/etc.

Haven't watched CW Superman. Gave up ten minutes into the first episode when Clark tells a kid his mother made his suit for him.

But you know I'm there on Golden Age Superman. Right there with you. *That* is the Superman who can connect with people today. The original S&S era, Morrison's t-shirt Springsteen Superman, Tom DeHaven's It's Superman! novel, the Flesicher shorts, Superman Smashes the Klan......these create the blueprint WB/DC could follow to a resurgence in Clark's popularity and relevance, if they only had the wisdom to see it.

That's not what most people think of when they think of the "classic" Superman. But it *is* the version that will speak most deeply to most people.....once they get over the differences and reconcile what OG Clark looks like compared to the vague, semi-formless ideal of the "classic" version most normal folk (ie., not us, who know the character) have in their heads.

[DABellWrites]

The classic Superman on comic books, movies, TV series.

Tyler is the right direction.

We're living in a terrible world right now. Pandemy. World War III. Poverty. Social disorders. Political confusion. Violent videogames. Kids killing each other. No education or culture. No empathy.
The "real" world is 100% a mess.
We don't need Batman-type characters anymore. Leave Batman alone, don't try to steal and copy his formula over and over and over. It's getting ridiculous. We already live in a nihilistic world. We just need a real superhero, positive and filled with values. We need hope.

So please, Warner Bros, don't nolanize Superman anymore. We don't need heat vision-glowing rage eyes. We don't need an updated costume. We don't need a tragic past. We don't need a tormented and brooding attitude. We don't need Kryptonian enemies destroying Metropolis.

We need Superman. We wanna dream a better world.

Thank you, Warner, if you're reading.

A lot of Jerry Siegel's pre-WW2 (America entering the war) stories are still relevant in today's landscape. Stock market manipulation, slumlords, corrupted politicians, etc. It was a dark world back then. What is the difference? Superman reminded apolitical for decades and lived good ol' Americana.

[JAK]

Haven't watched CW Superman. Gave up ten minutes into the first episode when Clark tells a kid his mother made his suit for him.

Oh, really? I thought that was cute, actually, especially when talking to a child. You might still give episode 11 a look on it's own - you might enjoy most of that, by itself. Just skip that initial interaction, lol.

But you know I'm there on Golden Age Superman. Right there with you. *That* is the Superman who can connect with people today. The original S&S era, Morrison's t-shirt Springsteen Superman, Tom DeHaven's It's Superman! novel, the Flesicher shorts, Superman Smashes the Klan......these create the blueprint WB/DC could follow to a resurgence in Clark's popularity and relevance, if they only had the wisdom to see it.

Right? Wisdom and WB seem to be mutually exclusive concepts, at this point.

That's not what most people think of when they think of the "classic" Superman. But it *is* the version that will speak most deeply to most people.....once they get over the differences and reconcile what OG Clark looks like compared to the vague, semi-formless ideal of the "classic" version most normal folk (ie., not us, who know the character) have in their heads.

Oh, completely - I tried to clarify exactly that in my post (that Golden Age isn't classic, but would resonate best right now). I do think (as I also said) that other iterations that are more "classic" could work, too (since classic is actually at least somewhat maliable, at the end of the day) - just not on the level that Golden Age would. Not even close.

If I had the money, I'd just make the movie now and wait for the rights to expire, lol

A lot of Jerry Siegel's pre-WW2 (America entering the war) stories are still relevant in today's landscape. Stock market manipulation, slumlords, corrupted politicians, etc. It was a dark world back then. What is the difference? Superman reminded apolitical for decades and lived good ol' Americana.

This. Honestly, and ironically, Superman and Rock 'N Roll could do with the same makeover, as - at their true root core - they're natural expressions of resistance/push-back against various ailments in society.

[manwhohaseverything]

I think so, yes. There just has to be a balance, where he shows different sides to himself in different contexts. He can comfort a kid but still bully a bully, spend one day living simply on the farm and the next day decoding Kryptonian tech in the Fortress, stand up to corruption but also cooperate with authority, etc.

I think you are missing the point..every superman is compassionate at his core..but,what changes is their outlook and where they come from..Their motivations and things like that..their behaviour towards others.you can't have middle approach to these thing..Either superman behaves like metropolis's dad or he doesn't..There is no middle.

Coming back to compassion,even the most rough neck superman can be a goofball.. Don't believe me,superman and abused orphanage child..or the superman making faces and doing goofy acrobatics to please a baby..superman saving boxing champion who was trying to end himself.

These are done in "yo man!! was just passing through saw that you needed help.decided to jump in".There was zero notions of some "superman loves all the world" or some holier than thou nonesense.

Making more diverse superman stories is the way to go..i feel.make more "else world" or "side worlds"or whatever worlds with different characterisation.Just tell entertaining stories..

Oh, really? I thought that was cute, actually, especially when talking to a child. You might still give episode 11 a look on it's own - you might enjoy most of that, by itself. Just skip that initial interaction, lol.

The mcu has been doing this... It's a bit blah! now.. the suit represents Clark's convictions.it represents where he comes from for me.

Granted i don't think tights feel this dirty or labour intensive any more.(something that needs to be addressed). It's feels just a cosplay now..

Anyways,Subverting that i do have a problem with.I am all for superman winking at cameras and acknowledging it's an imaginary laugh tale though..

[ironman2978]

Haven't watched CW Superman. Gave up ten minutes into the first episode when Clark tells a kid his mother made his suit for him.

But you know I'm there on Golden Age Superman. Right there with you. *That* is the Superman who can connect with people today. The original S&S era, Morrison's t-shirt Springsteen Superman, Tom DeHaven's It's Superman! novel, the Flesicher shorts, Superman Smashes the Klan......these create the blueprint WB/DC could follow to a resurgence in Clark's popularity and relevance, if they only had the wisdom to see it.

That's not what most people think of when they think of the "classic" Superman. But it *is* the version that will speak most deeply to most people.....once they get over the differences and reconcile what OG Clark looks like compared to the vague, semi-formless ideal of the "classic" version most normal folk (ie., not us, who know the character) have in their heads.

I always thought and maintain, that a golden age-esque (Fleischer/New 52 Morrison/Smashes the Klan/It's Superman/New Frontier) Superman would be perfect in this post 2020 election type of world. (Also Birthright had a golden/Silver&bronze age Superman with elements of Smallville, STAS and Post Crisis that worked brilliantly). Having a rough around the edges Clark figuring out his way in the world, dealing with real world evils before facing something like Brainiac & the Mechanical Men, Parasite/Metallo/Toyman, etc. Maybe in a The Batman/Spider-Man Homecoming style film.

Plus Matt Reeves and Robert Pattinson made a Kurt Cobain style year 2 Batman work, I feel like a Elvis/Bruce Springsteen influenced Golden Age Year 0-2 style Superman would really make a positive impact and would definitely do wonders for Superman's image with the right writer/director/cast and crew/imagination.


But the biggest thing besides the people in charge and their limited view point of what Superman is the image people have garnered of Superman vs the character he actually is or even potentially could be.

A lot of Jerry Siegel's pre-WW2 (America entering the war) stories are still relevant in today's landscape. Stock market manipulation, slumlords, corrupted politicians, etc. It was a dark world back then. What is the difference? Superman reminded apolitical for decades and lived good ol' Americana.

This but even if Superman the character was written as apolitical, the writers who handled the character or even what they thought of Superman/America seeped through in one way or the other.

I think so, yes. There just has to be a balance, where he shows different sides to himself in different contexts. He can comfort a kid but still bully a bully, spend one day living simply on the farm and the next day decoding Kryptonian tech in the Fortress, stand up to corruption but also cooperate with authority, etc.

I think that's the thing. Other characters are allowed a chance to be versatile/diverse characters (Look at Aquaman when Peter David writes him vs when Geoff writes him, all done with the mythos of the Flash or Green Lantern for better or worse, the myriad of Spidey, Cap, or Iron Man stories, or Wonder Woman, or even better yet had diverse the Batman franchise has became and the potential to be). Even underutilized, they have been written and handled and depicted in so many different ways from their status quo to their supporting cast to their costumes, they are given a certain amount of freedom as their respective IPs has allowed them to have. It's unfortunate that they are more flexible than what Superman is given. Honestly if given more creative freedom at an earlier stage (arguable post crisis or the 70's or even that boon with Superman Returns came out), I think it would have done a lot of good for the character than what it is now.

Imagine if we got comics like Secret Identity, Space Age, Smashes the Klan, the Earth one trilogy, Birthright, Superman of Smallville, Superman and the Authority, PKJ's Warworld saga, Grant Morrison New 52 origin, American Alien, Superman & Lois during the trinity era. Would the franchise be looked at different than it is today?

[D.Z]

The world is getting better than ever.

[JAK]

I think so, yes. There just has to be a balance, where he shows different sides to himself in different contexts. He can comfort a kid but still bully a bully, spend one day living simply on the farm and the next day decoding Kryptonian tech in the Fortress, stand up to corruption but also cooperate with authority, etc.

I like the nuance that's potentially in this. None of us act quite the same depending on the situation or who's around us, and this could be a great way to show that in Superman and give him a fleshed-out personality.

The mcu has been doing this... It's a bit blah! now.. the suit represents Clark's convictions.it represents where he comes from for me.

Granted i don't think tights feel this dirty or labour intensive any more.(something that needs to be addressed). It's feels just a cosplay now..

It does represent his convictions, but it depends on who he's talking to. I don't want him stand-offish and stoic or whatever to a kid, but very open and fun - to make the kids feel safe, if nothing else.

To me, I think if there's any hero who can get away with a simpler costume, it's Superman. Like I've often said, if you're about to die and a man in a pink tutu saves you, you'll learn to love the sight of that pink tutu. So as long as the suit is solidly made, I don't care about the rest. To me, the busier suits look almost too busy now.

I always thought and maintain, that a golden age-esque (Fleischer/New 52 Morrison/Smashes the Klan/It's Superman/New Frontier) Superman would be perfect in this post 2020 election type of world. (Also Birthright had a golden/Silver&bronze age Superman with elements of Smallville, STAS and Post Crisis that worked brilliantly). Having a rough around the edges Clark figuring out his way in the world, dealing with real world evils before facing something like Brainiac & the Mechanical Men, Parasite/Metallo/Toyman, etc. Maybe in a The Batman/Spider-Man Homecoming style film.

Plus Matt Reeves and Robert Pattinson made a Kurt Cobain style year 2 Batman work, I feel like a Elvis/Bruce Springsteen influenced Golden Age Year 0-2 style Superman would really make a positive impact and would definitely do wonders for Superman's image with the right writer/director/cast and crew/imagination.

Agreed.

But the biggest thing besides the people in charge and their limited view point of what Superman is the image people have garnered of Superman vs the character he actually is or even potentially could be.

True... but I think one influences the other, and if the mixture is just right, people can go along with quite a bit if it vibes right with them.

This but even if Superman the character was written as apolitical, the writers who handled the character or even what they thought of Superman/America seeped through in one way or the other.

Yeah, as much as everything is politicized these days, you just kinda have to listen to your gut and go with it.. because someone will always say something's too political if you have him do anything besides fight aliens or whatever.

I think that's the thing. Other characters are allowed a chance to be versatile/diverse characters (Look at Aquaman when Peter David writes him vs when Geoff writes him, all done with the mythos of the Flash or Green Lantern for better or worse, the myriad of Spidey, Cap, or Iron Man stories, or Wonder Woman, or even better yet had diverse the Batman franchise has became and the potential to be). Even underutilized, they have been written and handled and depicted in so many different ways from their status quo to their supporting cast to their costumes, they are given a certain amount of freedom as their respective IPs has allowed them to have. It's unfortunate that they are more flexible than what Superman is given. Honestly if given more creative freedom at an earlier stage (arguable post crisis or the 70's or even that boon with Superman Returns came out), I think it would have done a lot of good for the character than what it is now.

Imagine if we got comics like Secret Identity, Space Age, Smashes the Klan, the Earth one trilogy, Birthright, Superman of Smallville, Superman and the Authority, PKJ's Warworld saga, Grant Morrison New 52 origin, American Alien, Superman & Lois during the trinity era. Would the franchise be looked at different than it is today?

I often think that, as good as "The Death and Return of Superman" was (and is, imo), it got DC going on the while "event"-driven story kick, and that really hurt creativity. I often wonder what stories we could have had if the Triangle Era team had been allowed to just write their stories and be left alone. They built a pretty nice history before then - and honestly even after - but they've said that they had to deal with DC always wanting a big event in every book line and that it was taxing.

[Ascended]

I feel like a Elvis/Bruce Springsteen influenced Golden Age Year 0-2 style Superman would really make a positive impact and would definitely do wonders for Superman's image with the right writer/director/cast and crew/imagination.

Abso-friggin-lutely.

The danger, you're right, is in how that version contradicts what most people believe Superman is.....

But the biggest thing besides the people in charge and their limited view point of what Superman is the image people have garnered of Superman vs the character he actually is or even potentially could be.

The trick to pulling it off, as I see it, is kids.

To make people accept a Golden Age Superman, you need to show them that this is still the character they expect at his core, just rougher around the edges and less powerful.

What will (temporarily) remove those rough edges, and make Clark look and seem unbelievably powerful, like audiences expect? Seeing him through the eyes of children. So you work a few key character moments around Superman talking to kids. He gets down on their level, looks them in the eye, and is full of a hard-earned optimism (not naiveite) that promises that things will get better, even if they're not great right now.

And I think you almost need to use the t-shirt "costume" for this. That helps remove this version from the one in people's heads, who wears spandex. It's a visual indicator that says this isn't the Superman you're used to, and that'll open people up to changes they wouldn't otherwise accept.

I wouldn't even use Brainiac for the first movie. Use Ultra-Humanite instead, and drop a Brainiac teaser for the sequel.

This but even if Superman the character was written as apolitical, the writers who handled the character or even what they thought of Superman/America seeped through in one way or the other.

Just a quibble, but Superman has (almost) *always* been political. He simply isn't *partisan* and doesn't blindly follow the dogma of any party. I think part of the reason Clark isn't as successful or popular today as he once was is because DC mistook one for the other. When Superman started dealing with aliens and imps all the time, and never corrupt landlords or wife beaters, he lost his connection to people and their problems. If Superman never helps with problems real people face, then he's not fighting for us, he's just an entertainer putting on a spectacle.

And JAK, I'll check out that episode 11 of S&L, on your recommendation. Sometime this weekend, probably.

[JAK]

Abso-friggin-lutely.

The danger, you're right, is in how that version contradicts what most people believe Superman is.....

The trick to pulling it off, as I see it, is kids.

To make people accept a Golden Age Superman, you need to show them that this is still the character they expect at his core, just rougher around the edges and less powerful.

What will (temporarily) remove those rough edges, and make Clark look and seem unbelievably powerful, like audiences expect? Seeing him through the eyes of children. So you work a few key character moments around Superman talking to kids. He gets down on their level, looks them in the eye, and is full of a hard-earned optimism (not naiveite) that promises that things will get better, even if they're not great right now.

And I think you almost need to use the t-shirt "costume" for this. That helps remove this version from the one in people's heads, who wears spandex. It's a visual indicator that says this isn't the Superman you're used to, and that'll open people up to changes they wouldn't otherwise accept.

I wouldn't even use Brainiac for the first movie. Use Ultra-Humanite instead, and drop a Brainiac teaser for the sequel.

This. I do think the T-shirt costume would work, but the bright colors to a child are glorious, so I do think there's a way to make even a simple costume work: Adults don't see him long enough and his speed means they almost get a jumpscare more than anything and barely have time to look at him; but he stops for kids. I still love the orphanage angle in my pitch a LOT to really tie this in....damn it, I wanna make that movie, lol But seriously, mixing the almost-visceral with the gentle could be wonderful, if it's carefully done. Who we are around different people could almost be a theme of the film.. that they're all part of us, even if they seem very different.

Just a quibble, but Superman has (almost) *always* been political. He simply isn't *partisan* and doesn't blindly follow the dogma of any party. I think part of the reason Clark isn't as successful or popular today as he once was is because DC mistook one for the other. When Superman started dealing with aliens and imps all the time, and never corrupt landlords or wife beaters, he lost his connection to people and their problems. If Superman never helps with problems real people face, then he's not fighting for us, he's just an entertainer putting on a spectacle.

Also this. Biiig time.

And JAK, I'll check out that episode 11 of S&L, on your recommendation. Sometime this weekend, probably.

Awesome - whether you like it or not, I'd love to hear your thoughts; what connected for you, and what didn't. I will say in advance, though, that they do lean decently more into "you're destined to be their champion" than I'm really ok with.. so fair warning, there. I think they're trying to be an amalgam of many versions, and since that's in several, it shows up here. Just kinda mentally skip those bits, lol (or skip from 5:20 to about 9 mins, lol)

[Ascended]

This. I do think the T-shirt costume would work, but the bright colors to a child are glorious, so I do think there's a way to make even a simple costume work: Adults don't see him long enough and his speed means they almost get a jumpscare more than anything and barely have time to look at him; but he stops for kids. I still love the orphanage angle in my pitch a LOT to really tie this in....damn it, I wanna make that movie, lol But seriously, mixing the almost-visceral with the gentle could be wonderful, if it's carefully done. Who we are around different people could almost be a theme of the film.. that they're all part of us, even if they seem very different.

I like the touch that he stops to talk to kids, but not adults. That's the kind of detail that I think would really resonate with people.

And yes, the idea of being different people in different circumstances....that's a very key Superman concept, that's a big part of the hook, that all of us Clark Kents are secretly Supermen, and we're just waiting for our moment to tear off the office shirt and reveal the hero beneath.

Leaning into that, I do think there's positive qualities to playing up a certain duality in Superman's methodology (a Golden Age one, especially). In the eyes of the corrupt, he's terrifying; a unstoppable natural disaster aimed directly at them. Why else do the Golden Age version, if not for that catharsis of seeing someone beat up on the users and abusers we'd all like to beat up? But to still be Superman and not lose what the public perceives as Superman, there must also be kindness, and calm, and wisdom. And exploring that through the perceptions of kids just....it rings true, to me.

[JAK]

I like the touch that he stops to talk to kids, but not adults. That's the kind of detail that I think would really resonate with people.

Thank you! Yeah, I really think Superman needs to establish a connection to kids again. That's when I jumped on board, and the "I wanna see something cool" crowd will never like Superman anyway, so why cater to them. Screw 'em - they should never be the target audience.

And yes, the idea of being different people in different circumstances....that's a very key Superman concept, that's a big part of the hook, that all of us Clark Kents are secretly Supermen, and we're just waiting for our moment to tear off the office shirt and reveal the hero beneath.

Leaning into that, I do think there's positive qualities to playing up a certain duality in Superman's methodology (a Golden Age one, especially). In the eyes of the corrupt, he's terrifying; a unstoppable natural disaster aimed directly at them. Why else do the Golden Age version, if not for that catharsis of seeing someone beat up on the users and abusers we'd all like to beat up? But to still be Superman and not lose what the public perceives as Superman, there must also be kindness, and calm, and wisdom. And exploring that through the perceptions of kids just....it rings true, to me.

Oh, completely. It also puts Superman in a unique place among the superhero crowd; that there's something that isn't either looking cool or one-liner jokes. Superman *can* fit in those, but the fit has never been a comfortable one, imo. What you're talking about is exactly what I'd like to see - particularly from a Golden Age perspective. And that's the Superman that I think would sail above all others if it was ever introduced.

A more semi-modern (as it currently stands now) style take, for me, boils down to earnestness and strength of conviction in the face of adversity above all else. While I wouldn't call it perfect, I think the one found in Superman & Lois is about as close as we'll ever see from WB. Just a few changes would make it perfect (for that style).