In a bleak real world like this, we need the classic Superman again

[Ascended]

Well when you're ready to start making that Golden Age movie man, you let me know. I am down to provide feedback or edits or just my two cents if it's something you think you'd benefit from. And my college education was built around stuff like this so I might have a worthwhile idea or two, if we're both lucky.

Hel, just garner enough funding to film a single scene and "leak" it, like they did that footage of Deadpool. Maybe you can get a #restoretheJAKverse campaign going.

[JAK]

Well when you're ready to start making that Golden Age movie man, you let me know. I am down to provide feedback or edits or just my two cents if it's something you think you'd benefit from. And my college education was built around stuff like this so I might have a worthwhile idea or two, if we're both lucky.

Hel, just garner enough funding to film a single scene and "leak" it, like they did that footage of Deadpool. Maybe you can get a #restoretheJAKverse campaign going.

Oh, I'd love that! I'm actually working on funding cameras for some other fan films (Twilight, believe it or not, one of which involving Deadpool.. lol) and if that works I'm absolutely going to start looking at this in earnest. When that happens, I'll definitely be in touch about it.

And you know... that leak idea may not be a bad one at all! I wonder if you can get a movie funded before a copyright expires if you announce it'll release after it expires...

[Minerboh]

The John Burne Superman? If that's the case then I agree completely.

[Ascended]

And you know... that leak idea may not be a bad one at all! I wonder if you can get a movie funded before a copyright expires if you announce it'll release after it expires...

I'd double check with your lawyer just to be sure, copyright law wasn't something I spent a lot of time studying. But I *believe* you cannot do that. I think someone actually got in trouble earlier this year for trying a similar thing with Mickey Mouse/Steamboat Willie. However, if this were just fan work, and not (officially) for profit, then it'd likely be protected just like all fan art is.

So what you could maybe try to do is "leak" a scene from your "not for profit" fan film, and when you start getting comments and feedback from people say "Yeah, it's just a labor of love, but wouldn't it be great if someone could get behind this and help make it official?"

We're still almost a decade away from Superman entering public domain, and even if that does happen and copyright law isn't extended again you'd still have a ton of barriers to using the character. Best bet, if you were to go the "leak" route, is to make a product so impressive WB sends a headhunter/recruiter out to talk to you.

[Jeffrey2]

Oh, I'd love that! I'm actually working on funding cameras for some other fan films (Twilight, believe it or not, one of which involving Deadpool.. lol) and if that works I'm absolutely going to start looking at this in earnest. When that happens, I'll definitely be in touch about it.

And you know... that leak idea may not be a bad one at all! I wonder if you can get a movie funded before a copyright expires if you announce it'll release after it expires...

Ya know, there are a fair number of fan films out there. I seem to recall they ask for donations to help launch the film. In a few cases those who donated were offered DVDs of the finished film. Don't know if the latter is kosher with the IRS. Will GC cameo -LOL?! Good luck!

[JAK]

I'd double check with your lawyer just to be sure, copyright law wasn't something I spent a lot of time studying. But I *believe* you cannot do that. I think someone actually got in trouble earlier this year for trying a similar thing with Mickey Mouse/Steamboat Willie. However, if this were just fan work, and not (officially) for profit, then it'd likely be protected just like all fan art is.

So what you could maybe try to do is "leak" a scene from your "not for profit" fan film, and when you start getting comments and feedback from people say "Yeah, it's just a labor of love, but wouldn't it be great if someone could get behind this and help make it official?"

We're still almost a decade away from Superman entering public domain, and even if that does happen and copyright law isn't extended again you'd still have a ton of barriers to using the character. Best bet, if you were to go the "leak" route, is to make a product so impressive WB sends a headhunter/recruiter out to talk to you.

Actually, those are all a really good points. We're going the fanfilm route for the Twilight and Elvis concepts (not a biopic on the 2nd one, using DeepFake or something to literally see if we can make a movie like his from the 60's), so there's no real reason not to do it here, too. Especially if things go how I'd *really* like and we attempt a "through the eras" series type thing.

Ya know, there are a fair number of fan films out there. I seem to recall they ask for donations to help launch the film. In a few cases those who donated were offered DVDs of the finished film. Don't know if the latter is kosher with the IRS. Will GC cameo -LOL?! Good luck!

Oh, they certainly do ask for donations! BatInTheSun is probably one of the largest entities in the comics sphere, and they usually ask for 20-30k per movie and have a dedicated following.

And probably not GC - at the moment, I'd be playing Superman, but I'm going to have a get a lot more aquainted with our workout equipment, even for Golden Age... LOL

[ironman2978]

The John Burne Superman? If that's the case then I agree completely.

Yeah, personally I am not a fan of Byrne Superman in the slightest, but i can't deny his influence on takes of Superman I do like, but that's a debate for another thread.

I like the nuance that's potentially in this. None of us act quite the same depending on the situation or who's around us, and this could be a great way to show that in Superman and give him a fleshed-out personality.

I definietly agree. Each Golden Age reintepretation has been unique in how it explores the character in different facets but each wonderfully done

Superman Smashes The Klan- an exploration of Superman as a pov character and accepting both the immigrant/"alien" side of oneself as a commentary against racism/xenophobia while modernizing the classic radio adventure. (Birthright is also a good example of this in a modern, post 9/11 lens)

It's Superman- an introspective coming of age story that had Clark as this B average student from 17-21 years old trying to understand his place in the world and what he can do with his gifts. Tom De Haven uses a journey across America and the real world issues of the 1930 (politics, the dust bowl, and events of the world) in his transformation of becoming this Golden Age/Fleischer status quo Superman at the end of the story. The ending juxtaposes Pa Kent's iconic death bed scene and the cast watching the Play "Our Town" and Clark now dealing with the transition of being the character we went on this journey with and now being the man of steel and dealing with Superman problems -fighting Gamblers/Gorillas, trying to win Lois's attention, being this public hero and if he's Clark or Superman(almost Smallville esque) . It was a period piece with some modern elements (Perry, Lex Luthor being an alderman of NYC before being a mad scientist on the run from the law, Superman having more post crisis/later golden age powers influenced by a hard/grounded science like the heat vision being more like microwaves which at first leave Clark's eyes feeling weird before he masters it over time). An interview with Thunderchild, had this perfect quote :

http://thethunderchild.com/Interview...omDeHaven.html
I've been startled and often disappointed, sometimes even disgusted, that some reviewers and bloggers have felt that I wrote about a Superman who was "dumb." I didn't, not at all but he is a young man who grew up in his time and his place and was educated according to the theories and with the tools of that context. (He went to Smallville High, not Phillips Exeter Academy, for crying out loud.) He worries that he's not smart enough to do the things that he wants to do, feels he should do, but he manages to put aside, if never completely overcome, those feelings of inadequacy, and to me that's heroic. Why would anyone think a 17-20-year old kid from a tiny farming town in eastern Kansas would move out into the greater world and immediately, instinctively believe he could compete with a big-city politician like Lex Luthor or engage in an easygoing man-to-man conversation with the President of the United States?

In the novel we take leave of Clark/Superman just before his 21st birthday, if we re-visited this version of the character when he was, say, 30, he'd be a very different, probably very confident individual because of his life experiences. My novel, however, shows him just when those life experiences are beginning. And frankly, if he had super-confidence at that point, I'd be worried about him. And I sure as hell wouldn't believe in him.

The outline that DC accepted and Chronicle Books purchased contained the same movements as the finished novel: Smallville, Hollywood, New York, with a brief on the road section in-between Smallville and Hollywood. Some of the particulars of the story, however, changed, and in many cases changed drastically, from the outline. For the better, I'm convinced.

Some reviewers and readers have wondered why I used New York City rather than Metropolis.
Some reviewers and readers have wondered why I used New York City rather than Metropolis. Simple. I wanted to put this Superman in the real world as much as possible so that when I deviated from it (robots, for one example) those deviations would more likely be accepted. Also, I've always loved reading about New York in the Thirties, and I know a lot about it so it seemed I could give good weight/more bang for the buck using the bona-fide Manhattan as the setting rather than a made-up Metropolis. And I'm glad I did it. No regrets.

Superman:War of the Worlds: Taking a golden age Superman, cast and crew and placing them in the H.G. Wells War of the Worlds novel


New 52/Grant Morrison/Scholly Fisch Action Comics run - A Modernization of the Golden Age Superman that had moments where Clark doubts himself (#3, 6, 17, etc) but he was this young, rebellious man looking to make an impact on the world and rocking against the status quo- As Morrison and Morales describe it; Clark is a "Springsteen/Elvis" influenced character trying to change the world with action( akin to Reeves using Kurt Cobain as the influence for the Year 2 Bruce). It focuses on the transition of going from Golden Age Champion of the Oppressed to the World's First Superhero (the silver/bronze age Superman fighting robots, aliens, and larger than life threats and the New 52 Superman we see in the Geoff Johns Justice League Comics).

Also the fact that Morrison also imbued elements of STAS/Smallville, Silver/Bronze age, Birthright, Post crisis, etc (S being Kryptonian, Choosing the Phantom Zone but that plan failing, Lara being the person who chooses to send Kal to earth instead of Jor, etc) in the story while keeping the main influence being a golden age styled Clark and modernizing it is impressive.

New Frontier - Superman in a sociopolitical lens. How can Clark serve as a leader to a new generation and where can he do the most good? Should he serve the status quo or stand apart from political aspiration? (Also Red Son and Space Age). Like a criticism against DKR Supes and Superman was allowed to evolve past government lapdog and evolve into something more.

Superman/Batman: Enemies & Allies novel: George Reeves was the influence to this Superman and each chapter of Superman had the Earth 2/DCEU Superman symbol to introduce his story. A man trying to understand humanity (here symbolized by taking the advice column of the newspaper) and learning how to be Clark Kent as well as dealing with things like the Red Scare, Cold War and his first meeting with Batman. As Superman, he viewed himself as Kal-el, while he is still Clark Kent.

Superman TAS -Bruce Timm cited Fleischer and Jack Kirby as big influences to his Superman (from the color of the costume being directly inspired by the Fleischer look as well as the stories they told, to the personality, to the art style, etc)

I think Golden Age/Fleischer Superman is a great template that could lead to a lot of creative choices and great stories if done right, especially when bringing it on a big screen. It's about thinking of how to create a unique story with this particular take of Superman as the template, and what other aspects from other eras to pick and choose while picking and choosing while telling an original story.

Abso-friggin-lutely.

The danger, you're right, is in how that version contradicts what most people believe Superman is.....



The trick to pulling it off, as I see it, is kids.

To make people accept a Golden Age Superman, you need to show them that this is still the character they expect at his core, just rougher around the edges and less powerful.

What will (temporarily) remove those rough edges, and make Clark look and seem unbelievably powerful, like audiences expect? Seeing him through the eyes of children. So you work a few key character moments around Superman talking to kids. He gets down on their level, looks them in the eye, and is full of a hard-earned optimism (not naiveite) that promises that things will get better, even if they're not great right now.

It does represent his convictions, but it depends on who he's talking to. I don't want him stand-offish and stoic or whatever to a kid, but very open and fun - to make the kids feel safe, if nothing else.

I think that's the thing.

Having him being friendly to children or eventually winning people over despite initial friends would definitely make a big difference for the audience. Especially considering most modern superhero movies doesn't do that enough. It feels like even though you know they are protecting people, they feel apart from the world outside saving their respective supporting cast. A scene of Superman saving a cat in the tree for a little girl while stopping an out of control truck, or Action Comics#0 where a little boy used Superman's cape to protect his younger brother from their abusive father.

Superman treating kids like a equal and not making it feel forced is the key to what can really sell the character to the kid. He can have a sense of humor, be rough around the edges/rebellious, or clumsy and still learning the ropes but his interaction with people and how it is handled is what will really sell the character.

[ironman2978]

Just a quibble, but Superman has (almost) *always* been political. He simply isn't *partisan* and doesn't blindly follow the dogma of any party. I think part of the reason Clark isn't as successful or popular today as he once was is because DC mistook one for the other. When Superman started dealing with aliens and imps all the time, and never corrupt landlords or wife beaters, he lost his connection to people and their problems. If Superman never helps with problems real people face, then he's not fighting for us, he's just an entertainer putting on a spectacle.

True... but I think one influences the other, and if the mixture is just right, people can go along with quite a bit if it vibes right with them.

This is true.

Yeah, as much as everything is politicized these days, you just kinda have to listen to your gut and go with it.. because someone will always say something's too political if you have him do anything besides fight aliens or whatever.

And people are going to have an opinion about everything, whether you play it safe or not. It's just about getting your message out there. But at the same time when Superman faces real world problems, people are commenting that the writers are destroying the ideals of what Superman stands for even though that is in his inherent nature, i.e. being the champion of the oppressed. I think Birthright, Space Age, New Frontier are perfect examples of serving as sociopolitical commentary that is extremely relevant.

I think the thing was that point in time where they (specifically Byrne) wanted to make Superman "A super American/super conservative". I think mentality like that has also been something that hurt the character more than it actually help (especially coming close to Frank Miller's DKR Superman) and created this idea of Superman in people's head that he is the upholder of the status quo as opposed to a figure who is there for the people and is there to help people's problems.

I often think that, as good as "The Death and Return of Superman" was (and is, imo), it got DC going on the while "event"-driven story kick, and that really hurt creativity. I often wonder what stories we could have had if the Triangle Era team had been allowed to just write their stories and be left alone. They built a pretty nice history before then - and honestly even after - but they've said that they had to deal with DC always wanting a big event in every book line and that it was taxing.

That's my thing, I think the extreme need to create big event style stories, it really held them back. I do like that they are trying to create diverse different stories, but I just imagine what if it came at an earlier time?

And I think you almost need to use the t-shirt "costume" for this. That helps remove this version from the one in people's heads, who wears spandex. It's a visual indicator that says this isn't the Superman you're used to, and that'll open people up to changes they wouldn't otherwise accept.

I wouldn't even use Brainiac for the first movie. Use Ultra-Humanite instead, and drop a Brainiac teaser for the sequel.

I always use Brainiac as an example of a villain to have as a perfect villain to have a first Superman reboot movie because he hit certain checkmarks that could work for an introductory villain

- A popular and well known Superman villain but underutilized so a nice change of pace from the usual Lex/Zod (similar to Iron Monger or Penguin/Riddler)

- A personal connection to Superman that is a natural fit (the kidnapping of Kandor and Krypton/Smallville/STAS/Krypton and certain comics tied him to the destruction of Krypton or even connect them as both the last people of their respective worlds) without going the typical Zod route.

- A versatile and diverse villain with multiple looks (robot, alien, alien possessed human or robot posing as or possessing a human body, Cthulhu like demigod, or have him in a white smock/lab coat or buisness suit like Superman and the Authority or Alex Ross Justice looks), henchmen (Koko, metal men, drones, etc) and power set (telepathy/telekinesis , technopathy, shrinking objects, force fields, or even Smallville copying Superman's powers with density shifting/weapon manipulation, etc) it could really speak well and create a visually pleasing look and set pieces. He's a villain who if you're creative enough

- A good opening villain that can show this isn't your mama's Superman and really allows him to cut loose in terms of power set or even showcasing Superman's ingenuity/resourceful nature because Brainiac's claim to fame is his intelligence and being brain over brawn and can potentially set up a lot of interesting elements of the Superman universe (Stas/New 52 had the first fight with Brainiac lead to the creation of the Fortress or learning more about Krypton from a different perspective, Superman finding Kandor and non evil Kryptonians and/or different alien species, Earth taking Brainiac's technology and knowledge and using it for selfish reasons leading to the creation of other super villains, etc)

And JAK, I'll check out that episode 11 of S&L, on your recommendation. Sometime this weekend, probably.

It definitely was an episode worth watching

[ironman2978]

Sorry it took so long posting, I actually was helping working on a Netflix film, that's coming out next year (shameless plug for people to watch) and it's been hectic. @JAK, if you ever need help or someone to bounce ideas off of, I am more than happy to be of service.

And I think you almost need to use the t-shirt "costume" for this. That helps remove this version from the one in people's heads, who wears spandex. It's a visual indicator that says this isn't the Superman you're used to, and that'll open people up to changes they wouldn't otherwise accept.

To me, I think if there's any hero who can get away with a simpler costume, it's Superman. Like I've often said, if you're about to die and a man in a pink tutu saves you, you'll learn to love the sight of that pink tutu. So as long as the suit is solidly made, I don't care about the rest. To me, the busier suits look almost too busy now.

red trunks or no, I do personally feel like Superman in other media can be modernized and work but it takes creatively and just a lot of trial and error to find that perfect medium between classic Superman and something modern that appeals to fan. I do appreciate every non trunk Superman suit after New 52/DCEU (Robinson's E2, SV S11, Rebirth, Reborn and fan art, etc) that it made the attempt to bring something new to the table. I think that the t-shirt/jeans (farmer inspired attire) serving as his Year One/prototype look before he goes into a more official Superman outfit: I think an outfit similar to this (designed by Spencer Blair) would work :
https://yotakuportfolio.wordpress.com/




I think him having a Fleischer Superman S (Darwyn Cooke/Frank Miller/Michael Dante DiMartino style) would be amazing to see

I agree, it does kind of remove the idea that this isn't your parent's Superman (similar to Spider-Man's homemade outfits in the MCU or Webb movies or Reeve's Batman design) and adds to the theme that this is a Superman who is just learning the ropes and is rough around the edges before shifting him to a more classic/official costume (be it something new or classic Superman look).

[Hoodj]

- Superman is kind and considerate and does the right thing because it's the right thing to do. He's gentle and confident, not brooding and angst-ridden.

Isnt Superman reclusive and internally troubled as well, hes had many stories where he so emotionally tortured about being the only outsider of the extinct race and amongst a rarity of people who rather bring sin and crime to a world where he prevents that along with the worle of cardboard perspective, henceforth brooding that would make Batman jealous.

[ironman2978]

- Superman is kind and considerate and does the right thing because it's the right thing to do. He's gentle and confident, not brooding and angst-ridden.

Isnt Superman reclusive and internally troubled as well, hes had many stories where he so emotionally tortured about being the only outsider of the extinct race and amongst a rarity of people who rather bring sin and crime to a world where he prevents that along with the worle of cardboard perspective, henceforth brooding that would make Batman jealous.

Yeah, multiple comics ranging from silver/bronze to Post Crisis to tv shows like Smallville depicted Clark as someone who has a neurotic level of brooding and introspective moments, wondering if he's doing enough (Superman: Kryptonite, Smallville, Grant Morrison Action Comics#3, All Star Superman, Must there be a Superman, Superman Smashes the Klan, Superman Birthright,Adventures of Superman# 430, Secret Origin, Superman: Peace on Earth, etc) and a lot of those are beloved Superman stories. That doesn't mean he can't be a positive force for good and a shining example for humanity. It's just an example of the weight of the world quite literally being on his shoulder.

[superduperman]

There is no "classic" Superman. The first Superman I was ever exposed to was the Donner Superman. For some, it's the TAS. Or the Reeves TV show. Or Smallville. Or L&C. Everyone has a different "classic" Superman. Most modern versions are based on the Donner version. Smallville, S&L, even the Byrne reboot, albeit to a lesser degree. They've tried to bring back the SA in various forms for 20 years now. I suppose the only real "classic" Superman is the guy who could only leap an 1/8th of a mile. Doubt you could sell the public on making him the permanent version. Now, if your gripe is that you don't want things like the Snyder version, then make that argument. But "classic" doesn't have a definition.

[Agent Z]

There is no "classic" Superman. The first Superman I was ever exposed to was the Donner Superman. For some, it's the TAS. Or the Reeves TV show. Or Smallville. Or L&C. Everyone has a different "classic" Superman. Most modern versions are based on the Donner version. Smallville, S&L, even the Byrne reboot, albeit to a lesser degree. They've tried to bring back the SA in various forms for 20 years now. I suppose the only real "classic" Superman is the guy who could only leap an 1/8th of a mile. Doubt you could sell the public on making him the permanent version. Now, if your gripe is that you don't want things like the Snyder version, then make that argument. But "classic" doesn't have a definition.

It seems that's pretty much what threads like this are really for.

[bat39]

There is no "classic" Superman. The first Superman I was ever exposed to was the Donner Superman. For some, it's the TAS. Or the Reeves TV show. Or Smallville. Or L&C. Everyone has a different "classic" Superman. Most modern versions are based on the Donner version. Smallville, S&L, even the Byrne reboot, albeit to a lesser degree. They've tried to bring back the SA in various forms for 20 years now. I suppose the only real "classic" Superman is the guy who could only leap an 1/8th of a mile. Doubt you could sell the public on making him the permanent version. Now, if your gripe is that you don't want things like the Snyder version, then make that argument. But "classic" doesn't have a definition.

You might want to check out (if you haven't already) the discussion we've been having about what counts as the ''classic Superman'' on this thread. Its certainly evolved my own understanding of the subject.

For me, the ''classic'' Superman is the Bronze Age and early Post-Crisis Superman, along with Donner. A lot of people on the thread made an argument in favor of the Silver Age Superman being the most ''classic''. But one argument someone made which really stuck with me is that what we consider the ''classic Superman'' was really cemented in the 40's and early 50's - sort of in the nebulous late Golden Age/pre-Silver Age period (which is also the era where Superman adaptations first began - starting with the radio show and the Fleischer cartoons, and culminating in the George Reeves TV show). The point was that this was where the ''classic'' template of Superman was set, which other versions and adaptations have tried to follow, especially when they want to take the character ''back to basics''.

In any case, you're right that the Golden Age Superman (or specifically the Superman from the early Siegal/Shuster stories) is not what most people have in mind when it comes to the ''classic Superman''.