Changing sexualities of the modern X-Men

[Devaishwarya]

I'm willfully and deliberately choosing to ignore that that relationship ever happened...even under induced pretenses.

[Askani's Flame]

In reading through these 14 pages, I have come to some conclusions:

1) The term "bisex" is offensive and should never be uttered again. Say bisexual or bi, but "bisex" is gross, unflattering, and problematic.
2) People are still REALLY upset about Bobby
3) People love to ask for proof and when you deliver they still try to wiggle around it to still be upset
4) It seems that a lot of posters either: a) forgot what it was like when they came out; b) had the luxury and privilege of not having to really be closeted or question ones sexuality when owning their gay self; or c) have no understanding of what it means to be gay/bi/queer, to come out, and the psychological anxieties that lead into and out of coming out.
5) People don't like change, and feel that in a world of aliens, immortals, mutants, powers, etc. that the most UNBELIEVABLE thing is the application of real life human sexuality and it's fluidity. Like, that's wild
6) I see a lot of cries for "biphobia" but little actually showing why it's actually biphobia or biphobic other than tossing that term out as a means of holding onto the "straight" aspect of the character in question


But to extrapolate on 4:
In reading many of the comments in here, there seems to be a gap in understanding or remembering what it's like to come out and the feelings/emotions/ect that come before, during, and after doing so. It can be a light switch. You can literally be trying to live that straight life and someone comes into your life and you're like, "You know I'm good let's go". You can also struggle with your sexuality or gender for 20 - 40 years and decide today is the day I am doing what is best for me. You can also go through the gambit and be straight, then bi, then gay, then queer, then bi, etc. All of these experiences are VALID. There is no one correct experience in terms of human sexuality because we as individuals have individual experiences. So if someone - take my 73 yo dad for instance - struggles with their sexuality for 30 years and comes out at 60 after having a wife and kids, then it happens. Did I become voided out? Did the love he had/has for my mother become retconned? NO. But those are part of his past and his path. They forever remain part of him and he carries that with him. But he doesn't have sex with women as he is not attracted to the sexually and now has a loving husband. He even helps take care of my mother who is slowly dying of a form of dementia because he loves and cares for her.

So when we discuss characters in a comic book in terms of their relationships (let's take Bobby), none of his past experiences/relationships/feelings prior to him coming out are invalid. Just like with my dad. They are and will always be part of who he is, and they help define who he is still trying to be. He's still on a journey. He doesn't have to be bi, because that is not what he wants or who he is. But if he wanted to be then awesome! YOU want him to be bi because YOU connect with his character as a heterosexual. Even though that really is one of the smallest reasons for why I think you love his character. That's you the reader, or friend/family member/partner in a real life scenario) putting your wishes and needs on and above the wishes and needs of that person. Which is unfair and harmful. Betsy is bi, and has canonically been so for a decade, yet people on here are upset about that. So it seems even for those that scream "bi-erasure or biphobia", even THAT is not accepted because there is always an excuse to not like it. You the reader are allowed to be unhappy that Bobby's sexuality has changed, that Rachel is no longer queer-coded but queer, that Betsy loves and shags men and women, that Rictor and Shatterstar are lovers.... but not being willing to understand or accept what other people (Bobby, Rachel, Betsy, Ric and Shattybuns, my dad, etc.) tell you on who they are is on you and is a phobia of itself.

Feel free to disagree, I won't be upset, it's why we have places like this to have conversations and learning. But I'm not wrong.

[Confuzzled]

In reading through these 14 pages, I have come to some conclusions:

1) The term "bisex" is offensive and should never be uttered again. Say bisexual or bi, but "bisex" is gross, unflattering, and problematic.
2) People are still REALLY upset about Bobby
3) People love to ask for proof and when you deliver they still try to wiggle around it to still be upset
4) It seems that a lot of posters either: a) forgot what it was like when they came out; b) had the luxury and privilege of not having to really be closeted or question ones sexuality when owning their gay self; or c) have no understanding of what it means to be gay/bi/queer, to come out, and the psychological anxieties that lead into and out of coming out.
5) People don't like change, and feel that in a world of aliens, immortals, mutants, powers, etc. that the most UNBELIEVABLE thing is the application of real life human sexuality and it's fluidity. Like, that's wild
6) I see a lot of cries for "biphobia" but little actually showing why it's actually biphobia or biphobic other than tossing that term out as a means of holding onto the "straight" aspect of the character in question


But to extrapolate on 4:
In reading many of the comments in here, there seems to be a gap in understanding or remembering what it's like to come out and the feelings/emotions/ect that come before, during, and after doing so. It can be a light switch. You can literally be trying to live that straight life and someone comes into your life and you're like, "You know I'm good let's go". You can also struggle with your sexuality or gender for 20 - 40 years and decide today is the day I am doing what is best for me. You can also go through the gambit and be straight, then bi, then gay, then queer, then bi, etc. All of these experiences are VALID. There is no one correct experience in terms of human sexuality because we as individuals have individual experiences. So if someone - take my 73 yo dad for instance - struggles with their sexuality for 30 years and comes out at 60 after having a wife and kids, then it happens. Did I become voided out? Did the love he had/has for my mother become retconned? NO. But those are part of his past and his path. They forever remain part of him and he carries that with him. But he doesn't have sex with women as he is not attracted to the sexually and now has a loving husband. He even helps take care of my mother who is slowly dying of a form of dementia because he loves and cares for her.

So when we discuss characters in a comic book in terms of their relationships (let's take Bobby), none of his past experiences/relationships/feelings prior to him coming out are invalid. Just like with my dad. They are and will always be part of who he is, and they help define who he is still trying to be. He's still on a journey. He doesn't have to be bi, because that is not what he wants or who he is. But if he wanted to be then awesome! YOU want him to be bi because YOU connect with his character as a heterosexual. Even though that really is one of the smallest reasons for why I think you love his character. That's you the reader, or friend/family member/partner in a real life scenario) putting your wishes and needs on and above the wishes and needs of that person. Which is unfair and harmful. Betsy is bi, and has canonically been so for a decade, yet people on here are upset about that. So it seems even for those that scream "bi-erasure or biphobia", even THAT is not accepted because there is always an excuse to not like it. You the reader are allowed to be unhappy that Bobby's sexuality has changed, that Rachel is no longer queer-coded but queer, that Betsy loves and shags men and women, that Rictor and Shatterstar are lovers.... but not being willing to understand or accept what other people (Bobby, Rachel, Betsy, Ric and Shattybuns, my dad, etc.) tell you on who they are is on you and is a phobia of itself.

Feel free to disagree, I won't be upset, it's why we have places like this to have conversations and learning. But I'm not wrong.

[Drexelhand]

Like Bobby who had difficulty with his relationships before being outed as gay. In the post you quoted I did say "queer coded". Not explicitly gay....as yes, in my head Betsy and Rachel are bi.

Thank you for the clarification. It seems we see them in the same way.

In reading through these 14 pages, I have come to some conclusions:

1) The term "bisex" is offensive and should never be uttered again. Say bisexual or bi, but "bisex" is gross, unflattering, and problematic.
2) People are still REALLY upset about Bobby
3) People love to ask for proof and when you deliver they still try to wiggle around it to still be upset
4) It seems that a lot of posters either: a) forgot what it was like when they came out; b) had the luxury and privilege of not having to really be closeted or question ones sexuality when owning their gay self; or c) have no understanding of what it means to be gay/bi/queer, to come out, and the psychological anxieties that lead into and out of coming out.
5) People don't like change, and feel that in a world of aliens, immortals, mutants, powers, etc. that the most UNBELIEVABLE thing is the application of real life human sexuality and it's fluidity. Like, that's wild
6) I see a lot of cries for "biphobia" but little actually showing why it's actually biphobia or biphobic other than tossing that term out as a means of holding onto the "straight" aspect of the character in question


But to extrapolate on 4:
In reading many of the comments in here, there seems to be a gap in understanding or remembering what it's like to come out and the feelings/emotions/ect that come before, during, and after doing so. It can be a light switch. You can literally be trying to live that straight life and someone comes into your life and you're like, "You know I'm good let's go". You can also struggle with your sexuality or gender for 20 - 40 years and decide today is the day I am doing what is best for me. You can also go through the gambit and be straight, then bi, then gay, then queer, then bi, etc. All of these experiences are VALID. There is no one correct experience in terms of human sexuality because we as individuals have individual experiences. So if someone - take my 73 yo dad for instance - struggles with their sexuality for 30 years and comes out at 60 after having a wife and kids, then it happens. Did I become voided out? Did the love he had/has for my mother become retconned? NO. But those are part of his past and his path. They forever remain part of him and he carries that with him. But he doesn't have sex with women as he is not attracted to the sexually and now has a loving husband. He even helps take care of my mother who is slowly dying of a form of dementia because he loves and cares for her.

So when we discuss characters in a comic book in terms of their relationships (let's take Bobby), none of his past experiences/relationships/feelings prior to him coming out are invalid. Just like with my dad. They are and will always be part of who he is, and they help define who he is still trying to be. He's still on a journey. He doesn't have to be bi, because that is not what he wants or who he is. But if he wanted to be then awesome! YOU want him to be bi because YOU connect with his character as a heterosexual. Even though that really is one of the smallest reasons for why I think you love his character. That's you the reader, or friend/family member/partner in a real life scenario) putting your wishes and needs on and above the wishes and needs of that person. Which is unfair and harmful. Betsy is bi, and has canonically been so for a decade, yet people on here are upset about that. So it seems even for those that scream "bi-erasure or biphobia", even THAT is not accepted because there is always an excuse to not like it. You the reader are allowed to be unhappy that Bobby's sexuality has changed, that Rachel is no longer queer-coded but queer, that Betsy loves and shags men and women, that Rictor and Shatterstar are lovers.... but not being willing to understand or accept what other people (Bobby, Rachel, Betsy, Ric and Shattybuns, my dad, etc.) tell you on who they are is on you and is a phobia of itself.

Feel free to disagree, I won't be upset, it's why we have places like this to have conversations and learning. But I'm not wrong.

I agree with everything here. I won't lie, there was a time when I thought Bobby was bisexual because of an issue written by Marjorie Liu (I think) but reading his character in the 70s, 80s and 90s made it clear he was written as closeted gay for a long time. It was really only this one time in the 2000s when he was "straight" and even then, in the movies, he was with the one girl he couldn't touch.

And I will say just to reiterate it, there is nothing biphobic about Rachel Summers kissing Betsy Braddock. Would it be biphobic if they suddenly said she was a lesbian, I think it would, especially given what we know, since unlike Bobby, Rachel was never written as closeted. Because erasure is wrong and making Bobby gay was kind of like erasing the erasure of him as a gay character. For me, I don't want Rachel to be bi because I identify more with her. I identify with Rachel because of what she went through in her childhood. I come from a people that have faced erasure for 500 years and the idea that somebody could go and say "Rachel's not bi, her relationship with Franklin was a trauma bond" seems very wrong and disrespectful. Especially when a big part of the character is that she escaped erasure. Do I think Tini Howard, a writer who is openly bisexual, will do that? No, I don't. In the interview she did and and her post on Substack, she didn't deny Rachel as queer or bisexual. She just affirmed that she also likes women. I don't like her work on Excalibur, but I do think that she's enrichened the character even if it wasn't handled well.

But for sake of argument, let's say she does. If she handled Rachel coming out as a lesbian as Peter David handled Rictor and Shatterstar (although I believe Liefeld claimed Shatterstar was asexual erasure which is a whole other bag), in a way that analyzes her past relationships and feelings, then I would be willing to move beyond it. From everything I've read by Tini Howard, I don't have confidence in her as a writer to pull that off, but we can't forget that her intent also matters and I very much doubt she's intending on hurting anybody.

[PyroFN]

In reading through these 14 pages, I have come to some conclusions:

1) The term "bisex" is offensive and should never be uttered again. Say bisexual or bi, but "bisex" is gross, unflattering, and problematic.
2) People are still REALLY upset about Bobby
3) People love to ask for proof and when you deliver they still try to wiggle around it to still be upset
4) It seems that a lot of posters either: a) forgot what it was like when they came out; b) had the luxury and privilege of not having to really be closeted or question ones sexuality when owning their gay self; or c) have no understanding of what it means to be gay/bi/queer, to come out, and the psychological anxieties that lead into and out of coming out.
5) People don't like change, and feel that in a world of aliens, immortals, mutants, powers, etc. that the most UNBELIEVABLE thing is the application of real life human sexuality and it's fluidity. Like, that's wild
6) I see a lot of cries for "biphobia" but little actually showing why it's actually biphobia or biphobic other than tossing that term out as a means of holding onto the "straight" aspect of the character in question


But to extrapolate on 4:
In reading many of the comments in here, there seems to be a gap in understanding or remembering what it's like to come out and the feelings/emotions/ect that come before, during, and after doing so. It can be a light switch. You can literally be trying to live that straight life and someone comes into your life and you're like, "You know I'm good let's go". You can also struggle with your sexuality or gender for 20 - 40 years and decide today is the day I am doing what is best for me. You can also go through the gambit and be straight, then bi, then gay, then queer, then bi, etc. All of these experiences are VALID. There is no one correct experience in terms of human sexuality because we as individuals have individual experiences. So if someone - take my 73 yo dad for instance - struggles with their sexuality for 30 years and comes out at 60 after having a wife and kids, then it happens. Did I become voided out? Did the love he had/has for my mother become retconned? NO. But those are part of his past and his path. They forever remain part of him and he carries that with him. But he doesn't have sex with women as he is not attracted to the sexually and now has a loving husband. He even helps take care of my mother who is slowly dying of a form of dementia because he loves and cares for her.

So when we discuss characters in a comic book in terms of their relationships (let's take Bobby), none of his past experiences/relationships/feelings prior to him coming out are invalid. Just like with my dad. They are and will always be part of who he is, and they help define who he is still trying to be. He's still on a journey. He doesn't have to be bi, because that is not what he wants or who he is. But if he wanted to be then awesome! YOU want him to be bi because YOU connect with his character as a heterosexual. Even though that really is one of the smallest reasons for why I think you love his character. That's you the reader, or friend/family member/partner in a real life scenario) putting your wishes and needs on and above the wishes and needs of that person. Which is unfair and harmful. Betsy is bi, and has canonically been so for a decade, yet people on here are upset about that. So it seems even for those that scream "bi-erasure or biphobia", even THAT is not accepted because there is always an excuse to not like it. You the reader are allowed to be unhappy that Bobby's sexuality has changed, that Rachel is no longer queer-coded but queer, that Betsy loves and shags men and women, that Rictor and Shatterstar are lovers.... but not being willing to understand or accept what other people (Bobby, Rachel, Betsy, Ric and Shattybuns, my dad, etc.) tell you on who they are is on you and is a phobia of itself.

Feel free to disagree, I won't be upset, it's why we have places like this to have conversations and learning. But I'm not wrong.

Don’t think this will stop people, which is sad because this is the most accurate thing about sexuality. People are not one note. They don’t gradually become different. They are what they are and how they figure it out varies wildly.

It’s why I say a man being in a relationship with another man does not always mean they are gay or bisexual. Sexuality is so, so complicated and labels don’t always fit a person’s preferences completely. How a person’s journey in figuring themselves out is so varied that it is just best to not assume in general.

[Askani's Flame]

OMG I definitely smiled and chuckled at this.

Thank you for the clarification. It seems we see them in the same way.



I agree with everything here. I won't lie, there was a time when I thought Bobby was bisexual because of an issue written by Marjorie Liu (I think) but reading his character in the 70s, 80s and 90s made it clear he was written as closeted gay for a long time. It was really only this one time in the 2000s when he was "straight" and even then, in the movies, he was with the one girl he couldn't touch.

And I will say just to reiterate it, there is nothing biphobic about Rachel Summers kissing Betsy Braddock. Would it be biphobic if they suddenly said she was a lesbian, I think it would, especially given what we know, since unlike Bobby, Rachel was never written as closeted. Because erasure is wrong and making Bobby gay was kind of like erasing the erasure of him as a gay character. For me, I don't want Rachel to be bi because I identify more with her. I identify with Rachel because of what she went through in her childhood. I come from a people that have faced erasure for 500 years and the idea that somebody could go and say "Rachel's not bi, her relationship with Franklin was a trauma bond" seems very wrong and disrespectful. Especially when a big part of the character is that she escaped erasure. Do I think Tini Howard, a writer who is openly bisexual, will do that? No, I don't. In the interview she did and and her post on Substack, she didn't deny Rachel as queer or bisexual. She just affirmed that she also likes women. I don't like her work on Excalibur, but I do think that she's enrichened the character even if it wasn't handled well.

But for sake of argument, let's say she does. If she handled Rachel coming out as a lesbian as Peter David handled Rictor and Shatterstar (although I believe Liefeld claimed Shatterstar was asexual erasure which is a whole other bag), in a way that analyzes her past relationships and feelings, then I would be willing to move beyond it. From everything I've read by Tini Howard, I don't have confidence in her as a writer to pull that off, but we can't forget that her intent also matters and I very much doubt she's intending on hurting anybody.

Drex, I love you! I was going to say I was going to say I love you man but I don't know your gender so I didn't want to assume. We always have great convos around our everlasting love of all things Rachel.

I think Tini has done many of Rachel's fans a big service with this spit-swap with Betsy. And as I said above in terms of previous relationships, it will never change Rachel's relationship with Franklin. He will ALWAYS be her first love. And still one of her most important. Any poster that claims that they were together solely for trauma is writing fanfic as that has never been stated on panel. Tini is not about to sh*t on that. Nor is she likely going to say her other relationships are invalid. Those are part of her journey to where she is now and where she is going. Could she, Rachel (via Tini) is a lesbian, sure. She could, I don't think she will but she could. And there is nothing wrong with that, because that is how human sexuality works some times. Claremont essentially said (without saying) that Rachel and Kitty were endgame and lesbians in the "X-Men: The End" series. Does Rachel coming out as a lesbian (or queer/bi/poly/etc) destroy her previous relationships and their meaning, absolutely not. If a writer said they did I would go to war with them as that would be true erasure. But there is an interesting trend someone else brought up that Rachel ended her relationship with Korvus because she wasn't sure if it was her feelings or the PF connection that kept them together. And she broke it off with Kurt because she wasn't sure if it was her feelings or Mesmero/Cassie messing with her mind. But regardless, Leah first said Rachel breaks ladies hearts (via Polaris) so it's established there is interest in women. So Rachel is queer and interested in Betsy. That's good enough for me as it follows the queer coding that has existed since Rachel came to 616.

I also agree that I don't think Tini is the best writer as she leaves too much open in her writing for reader interpretation and skips around a lot. And I have not enjoyed most of her version of Betsy thus far.

Don’t think this will stop people, which is sad because this is the most accurate thing about sexuality. People are not one note. They don’t gradually become different. They are what they are and how they figure it out varies wildly.

It’s why I say a man being in a relationship with another man does not always mean they are gay or bisexual. Sexuality is so, so complicated and labels don’t always fit a person’s preferences completely. How a person’s journey in figuring themselves out is so varied that it is just best to not assume in general.

Lol I'm not delusional like them. But yes to everything in your post. It's so true and people refuse to acknowledge it.

[Darthfury78]

Like Bobby who had difficulty with his relationships before being outed as gay. In the post you quoted I did say "queer coded". Not explicitly gay....as yes, in my head Betsy and Rachel are bi.

I like to see Betsy hooking up with Peter Parker. Rachel and Felicia Hardy would make a wonderful couple...

[PolarIceFire]

In reading through these 14 pages, I have come to some conclusions:

1) The term "bisex" is offensive and should never be uttered again. Say bisexual or bi, but "bisex" is gross, unflattering, and problematic.
2) People are still REALLY upset about Bobby
3) People love to ask for proof and when you deliver they still try to wiggle around it to still be upset
4) It seems that a lot of posters either: a) forgot what it was like when they came out; b) had the luxury and privilege of not having to really be closeted or question ones sexuality when owning their gay self; or c) have no understanding of what it means to be gay/bi/queer, to come out, and the psychological anxieties that lead into and out of coming out.
5) People don't like change, and feel that in a world of aliens, immortals, mutants, powers, etc. that the most UNBELIEVABLE thing is the application of real life human sexuality and it's fluidity. Like, that's wild
6) I see a lot of cries for "biphobia" but little actually showing why it's actually biphobia or biphobic other than tossing that term out as a means of holding onto the "straight" aspect of the character in question


But to extrapolate on 4:
In reading many of the comments in here, there seems to be a gap in understanding or remembering what it's like to come out and the feelings/emotions/ect that come before, during, and after doing so. It can be a light switch. You can literally be trying to live that straight life and someone comes into your life and you're like, "You know I'm good let's go". You can also struggle with your sexuality or gender for 20 - 40 years and decide today is the day I am doing what is best for me. You can also go through the gambit and be straight, then bi, then gay, then queer, then bi, etc. All of these experiences are VALID. There is no one correct experience in terms of human sexuality because we as individuals have individual experiences. So if someone - take my 73 yo dad for instance - struggles with their sexuality for 30 years and comes out at 60 after having a wife and kids, then it happens. Did I become voided out? Did the love he had/has for my mother become retconned? NO. But those are part of his past and his path. They forever remain part of him and he carries that with him. But he doesn't have sex with women as he is not attracted to the sexually and now has a loving husband. He even helps take care of my mother who is slowly dying of a form of dementia because he loves and cares for her.

So when we discuss characters in a comic book in terms of their relationships (let's take Bobby), none of his past experiences/relationships/feelings prior to him coming out are invalid. Just like with my dad. They are and will always be part of who he is, and they help define who he is still trying to be. He's still on a journey. He doesn't have to be bi, because that is not what he wants or who he is. But if he wanted to be then awesome! YOU want him to be bi because YOU connect with his character as a heterosexual. Even though that really is one of the smallest reasons for why I think you love his character. That's you the reader, or friend/family member/partner in a real life scenario) putting your wishes and needs on and above the wishes and needs of that person. Which is unfair and harmful. Betsy is bi, and has canonically been so for a decade, yet people on here are upset about that. So it seems even for those that scream "bi-erasure or biphobia", even THAT is not accepted because there is always an excuse to not like it. You the reader are allowed to be unhappy that Bobby's sexuality has changed, that Rachel is no longer queer-coded but queer, that Betsy loves and shags men and women, that Rictor and Shatterstar are lovers.... but not being willing to understand or accept what other people (Bobby, Rachel, Betsy, Ric and Shattybuns, my dad, etc.) tell you on who they are is on you and is a phobia of itself.

Feel free to disagree, I won't be upset, it's why we have places like this to have conversations and learning. But I'm not wrong.

I found this post to be... in a league of its own. It's just so beautifully soul-baring in its eloquence, and its enlightenment. How anyone could not become more compassionate and aware after reading it, is beyond me. Thank you, and if it's okay, I'd like to quote it for safekeeping in Bobby's thread? Also, please shake your father's hand for me, and then give him a big, long, warm hug after. Hold him tight and assure him, it's going to be alright, same for your mom. I know what they're going through can be difficult, and often... heartbreaking. People like him give me hope for this world. Bless him, you, and all your loved ones, I will think of you often, and send good thoughts your way. You are not alone.

Don’t think this will stop people, which is sad because this is the most accurate thing about sexuality. People are not one note. They don’t gradually become different. They are what they are and how they figure it out varies wildly.

It’s why I say a man being in a relationship with another man does not always mean they are gay or bisexual. Sexuality is so, so complicated and labels don’t always fit a person’s preferences completely. How a person’s journey in figuring themselves out is so varied that it is just best to not assume in general.

All of this, as well. Each of us is unique, but WE... are not alone. Things like this are why I love the X-Men so. I've learned from and by way of them, about myself and everything around me, and am so much better for it. Their message to me, has always been about acceptance, of oneself... and others. Shame on those who don't share these sentiments, for it was lost on them.

[cam18]

...
Thats all Im gonna say.
IN what ways did his personality change?

Written like the most stereotypical flamboyant gay person I can think of or close to it....down to how he dresses was just a big shift during that time it just felt like a different character almost like Sina Grace was adapting at least in part some of himself in Bobby but to me at least it did not feel true to the character but rather a shift to fit his new reality and really hammer home the point he is gay now just in case your not sure.....

[Psy-lock]

Written like the most stereotypical flamboyant gay person I can think of or close to it....down to how he dresses was just a big shift during that time it just felt like a different character almost like Sina Grace was adapting at least in part some of himself in Bobby but to me at least it did not feel true to the character but rather a shift to fit his new reality and really hammer home the point he is gay now just in case your not sure.....

That's what often happens when a closeted gay person comes out. And he's far from being the most flamboyant and stereotypical.

[From The Shadows]

Betsy and Ray??? it has nothing to do with them both being women. it seems random. Not Ray and Kitty. Not Betts and Dazz bur BetsyXRachel? it makes no sense. At first when I read it I thought it was a typo.

Now onto Logan and Kurt... just because...

Logan and Kurt are rather close towards each other. The way they act with each other is different then how they act with other males. Do I think Kurt is secretly meant to be gay? No. But thats me. Logan? Well, I think it was hinted at least under Morrison as being bi when Logan was talking to Sabretooth.

Here. Have some fanart.

[Askani's Flame]

I found this post to be... in a league of its own. It's just so beautifully soul-baring in its eloquence, and its enlightenment. How anyone could not become more compassionate and aware after reading it, is beyond me. Thank you, and if it's okay, I'd like to quote it for safekeeping in Bobby's thread? Also, please shake your father's hand for me, and then give him a big, long, warm hug after. Hold him tight and assure him, it's going to be alright, same for your mom. I know what they're going through can be difficult, and often... heartbreaking. People like him give me hope for this world. Bless him, you, and all your loved ones, I will think of you often, and send good thoughts your way. You are not alone

Thank you, I truly appreciate your comradery and your thoughts. It's very kind. And yes please feel free to repost this.

Betsy and Ray??? it has nothing to do with them both being women. it seems random. Not Ray and Kitty. Not Betts and Dazz bur BetsyXRachel? it makes no sense. At first when I read it I thought it was a typo.

I mean, why is it a typo or random? They have known each other for years in the books. They have been teammates. They have both suffered at the hands of Mojo and other cruel men. They have had their bodies and minds tampered with. They have a lot of similar traumas. And over time they have come to care for each other more than friends. Why couldn't it happen?

[Triniking1234]

That's what often happens when a closeted gay person comes out. And he's far from being the most flamboyant and stereotypical.

That was mostly under Sina Grace. Hopeless, Duggan and the author for the Infinite Comic were okay.

[Drexelhand]

Drex, I love you! I was going to say I was going to say I love you man but I don't know your gender so I didn't want to assume. We always have great convos around our everlasting love of all things Rachel.

I think Tini has done many of Rachel's fans a big service with this spit-swap with Betsy. And as I said above in terms of previous relationships, it will never change Rachel's relationship with Franklin. He will ALWAYS be her first love. And still one of her most important. Any poster that claims that they were together solely for trauma is writing fanfic as that has never been stated on panel. Tini is not about to sh*t on that. Nor is she likely going to say her other relationships are invalid. Those are part of her journey to where she is now and where she is going. Could she, Rachel (via Tini) is a lesbian, sure. She could, I don't think she will but she could. And there is nothing wrong with that, because that is how human sexuality works some times. Claremont essentially said (without saying) that Rachel and Kitty were endgame and lesbians in the "X-Men: The End" series. Does Rachel coming out as a lesbian (or queer/bi/poly/etc) destroy her previous relationships and their meaning, absolutely not. If a writer said they did I would go to war with them as that would be true erasure. But there is an interesting trend someone else brought up that Rachel ended her relationship with Korvus because she wasn't sure if it was her feelings or the PF connection that kept them together. And she broke it off with Kurt because she wasn't sure if it was her feelings or Mesmero/Cassie messing with her mind. But regardless, Leah first said Rachel breaks ladies hearts (via Polaris) so it's established there is interest in women. So Rachel is queer and interested in Betsy. That's good enough for me as it follows the queer coding that has existed since Rachel came to 616.

I also agree that I don't think Tini is the best writer as she leaves too much open in her writing for reader interpretation and skips around a lot. And I have not enjoyed most of her version of Betsy thus far.

Yep, I'm a guy. And yep, we always the best conversations about Rachel - partially why she's one of the best X-Men.

[cam18]

That's what often happens when a closeted gay person comes out. And he's far from being the most flamboyant and stereotypical.

not sure I agree I know ppl who have come out and it definitely varies person to person but the ppl I know that have come out that was not how it went......under Sina Grace I would argue he was up there jmo.