Changing sexualities of the modern X-Men

[From The Shadows]

Thank you, I truly appreciate your comradery and your thoughts. It's very kind. And yes please feel free to repost this.



I mean, why is it a typo or random? They have known each other for years in the books. They have been teammates. They have both suffered at the hands of Mojo and other cruel men. They have had their bodies and minds tampered with. They have a lot of similar traumas. And over time they have come to care for each other more than friends. Why couldn't it happen?

I'm sorry just NO, lol. No offense. And the latest cbr article that this has been long awaited reeks of insincerity because we all no its Kitty and Rachel who people have been hoping for years and have talked about and a lesser extent Betsy and Ali - maybe B/A not as serious as the former but definitely talked about. If they want an article on the two kissing fine but don't say it's been long awaited and if I have to explain myself then I really don't know what to say. Anyway, I don't need it but at least have it make more sense. In my eyes this was just a stunt.

[WebLurker]

What I'm getting from this is that people have strong opinions on the subject.

IMHO, I wish that they'd put X-23 and Mercury together; they had a nice dynamic, were shown to be mutually supportive and had issues that they were in an unique position to understand. Never found any of the actual people they tried to pair X-23 up with worked and all of them lacking the decent foundation that, IMHO, she would've had with Mercury had Marvel decided to go that way.

[PolarIceFire]

Thank you, I truly appreciate your comradery and your thoughts. It's very kind. And yes please feel free to repost this. ...

Thank you, and you are very welcome. I was truly touched by what you wrote.

That's what *often* happens when a closeted gay person comes out. And he's far from being the most flamboyant and stereotypical.

not sure I agree I know ppl who have come out and it definitely varies person to person but the ppl I know that have come out that was not how it went......under Sina Grace I would argue he was up there jmo.

I'd rather generalizations such as this be avoided. And I agree that some of what Grace wrote may have a been fine for a gay Iceman, but I'm *not sure it fit Bobby Drake's* personal coming out eXperience [the way I imagine(d) it, anyway], and there's a difference.

[Starfish]

What I'm getting from this is that people have strong opinions on the subject.

IMHO, I wish that they'd put X-23 and Mercury together; they had a nice dynamic, were shown to be mutually supportive and had issues that they were in an unique position to understand. Never found any of the actual people they tried to pair X-23 up with worked and all of them lacking the decent foundation that, IMHO, she would've had with Mercury had Marvel decided to go that way.

It's a good ship, though I'd already be happy if someone brought back their friendship (or let them interact again at all), because their personalities and character arcs complemented each other so well.

[Askani's Flame]

I'm sorry just NO, lol. No offense. And the latest cbr article that this has been long awaited reeks of insincerity because we all no its Kitty and Rachel who people have been hoping for years and have talked about and a lesser extent Betsy and Ali - maybe B/A not as serious as the former but definitely talked about. If they want an article on the two kissing fine but don't say it's been long awaited and if I have to explain myself then I really don't know what to say. Anyway, I don't need it but at least have it make more sense. In my eyes this was just a stunt.

I don't disagree that the Rachel and Kitty pairing was the real long awaited kiss or connection, and while not invested I can see Ali and Betts, but for me Kitty has been a real sh*tty friend to Rachel over the past few years so I am done with that ship for Rachel. I don't think this is a stunt, as it's been a long time coming to show Rachel kissing a woman on panel (less for me about her and Betsy being paired), and technically it's been a few years in the making for these two characters to kiss. Like I said before, there's nothing wrong with not being excited for these two characters being put together if you just don't like the pairing, vs not liking the pairing because of issues around sexuality.

[toddcam]

As someone who thought Bobby was gay in the 1990s, it's kind of shocking how many of the X-characters are now openly LGBTQ+. As a gay man myself, it was wonderful to have Bobby's sexuality confirmed. But as time goes forward, and being openly Q+ is becoming more and more accepted, I do think the rush to make more characters secretly queer can be grating if not handled well.

The whole insistence that Wolverine and Cyclops are bisexual thing in this thread is a prime example. I don't mind the jokes, etc. All in good fun.

But Cyclops and Wolverine are characters with decades and decades of interpersonal strife with the likes of alternate timeline children, and having power-based amnesia, and marrying clones of the women they loved, and the like, maybe they don't also need to have secretly also had an attraction to each other.

I wouldn't mind if this were done as a real story, that had actual ramifications, but the story as shown in this thread is that they both have bedroom doors that adjoin with a woman they have been attracted to (or married to) for almost the entirety of their 50-60 year existences, or some random flirtatious banter.

Confirming Bobby as gay helped flesh out his motivations as a character. He was always about trying to be unnoticed while being front and center at the same time. A complex issue that his closeted nature added to the pathos of. Iceman was never a particularly complex character otherwise. It gave him something more. (And please spare me the whole, "the character shouldn't be about being gay" nonsense; it's part of who he is, and being gay is still a big thing in our world.)

To be honest, the idea of Wolverine as bisexual doesn't bother me either. I think he definitely prefers women, but I also think of Wolvie as open-minded, and if he were feeling randy, why the fuck not fuck some willing guy if the urge took him? But Cyclops...?

I don't want to turn this into a rant about Cyclops, a character I am not all that fond of, but he's a stick in the mud (though some of the panels shown here appear to reveal a less rigid side of him), and over-serious. I just don't see Wolvie being attracted to that cad. Especially as Logan has clearly loved Jean a long time, and Scott has been a rival for her affections and has done some shitty, shitty stuff to her.

To me, the doorways to Jean's room was a statement about Jean Grey, a character who was always a focus of other characters' attraction, and was often sidelined, with her identity taken in several ways. She had two extended periods of being dead. Jean, whose husband had been having an affair of sorts when she died the last time, was taking an active role in her own identity and sexuality. She was now embracing polyamory. Her cheating, clone-marrying husband could now be one of her men instead of her being one of Scott's telepathic ladies, or one of Logan's many, many tragic loves. Wolverine and Cyclops fucking on the side makes Jean's changes or other characters' struggles with being LGBTQ+ seem less special. Do Cyclops and Wolverine need even more focus?

I kind of hate the "tell good stories" kind of attack, but if Cyke and Wolverine were to actually be bisexual, I'd hope it'd be told in a better way than that. Bring up how in complicates their long enmity, their relationship with Jean, maybe Bobby can talk to them about it, I dunno.

In the end, "changing" a character to being queer is fine, but it needs to be treated with care.

[Rift]

Honestly, if Cyclops were into men, I don't think he'd like Wolverine, he'd be into, like, math homework or something.

[Subliminal]

...But to extrapolate on 4:
In reading many of the comments in here, there seems to be a gap in understanding or remembering what it's like to come out and the feelings/emotions/ect that come before, during, and after doing so. It can be a light switch. You can literally be trying to live that straight life and someone comes into your life and you're like, "You know I'm good let's go". You can also struggle with your sexuality or gender for 20 - 40 years and decide today is the day I am doing what is best for me. You can also go through the gambit and be straight, then bi, then gay, then queer, then bi, etc. All of these experiences are VALID. There is no one correct experience in terms of human sexuality because we as individuals have individual experiences. So if someone - take my 73 yo dad for instance - struggles with their sexuality for 30 years and comes out at 60 after having a wife and kids, then it happens. Did I become voided out? Did the love he had/has for my mother become retconned? NO. But those are part of his past and his path. They forever remain part of him and he carries that with him. But he doesn't have sex with women as he is not attracted to the sexually and now has a loving husband. He even helps take care of my mother who is slowly dying of a form of dementia because he loves and cares for her.

So when we discuss characters in a comic book in terms of their relationships (let's take Bobby), none of his past experiences/relationships/feelings prior to him coming out are invalid. Just like with my dad. They are and will always be part of who he is, and they help define who he is still trying to be. He's still on a journey. He doesn't have to be bi, because that is not what he wants or who he is. But if he wanted to be then awesome! YOU want him to be bi because YOU connect with his character as a heterosexual. Even though that really is one of the smallest reasons for why I think you love his character. That's you the reader, or friend/family member/partner in a real life scenario) putting your wishes and needs on and above the wishes and needs of that person. Which is unfair and harmful. Betsy is bi, and has canonically been so for a decade, yet people on here are upset about that. So it seems even for those that scream "bi-erasure or biphobia", even THAT is not accepted because there is always an excuse to not like it. You the reader are allowed to be unhappy that Bobby's sexuality has changed, that Rachel is no longer queer-coded but queer, that Betsy loves and shags men and women, that Rictor and Shatterstar are lovers.... but not being willing to understand or accept what other people (Bobby, Rachel, Betsy, Ric and Shattybuns, my dad, etc.) tell you on who they are is on you and is a phobia of itself...

Well said. Sorry to hear about your mom Askani's Flame. My father-in-law recently passed away after a long decline from Aphasia. It's awful to experience but it's amazing when people with so many differences will show up when it matters. More love and acceptance is needed in this world...even in a thread conversation about dividing fictitious people.

I'm sorry just NO, lol. No offense. And the latest cbr article that this has been long awaited reeks of insincerity because we all no its Kitty and Rachel who people have been hoping for years and have talked about and a lesser extent Betsy and Ali - maybe B/A not as serious as the former but definitely talked about. If they want an article on the two kissing fine but don't say it's been long awaited and if I have to explain myself then I really don't know what to say. Anyway, I don't need it but at least have it make more sense. In my eyes this was just a stunt.

The Kate and Rachel relationship has sailed... evidenced by Rachel's exclusion from the bridal party of Kate's wedding, after being SO close to Rachel during those Excalibur days and at the time being on the same team (even though Storm was chosen). This could only mean Rachel was an ex. Nonetheless, Rachel and Betsy have had terrific chemistry in their team-ups in the past...it's not entirely unimaginable. I would say Rachel is pansexual if she needs a label... she's been attracted to men, women, sentient bacteria and extra-terrestrial species with undisclosed gender identities.

[Subliminally]

Honestly, if Cyclops were into men, I don't think he'd like Wolverine, he'd be into, like, math homework or something.

Scott and Tony Stark. Ez.

[Confuzzled]

And I agree that some of what Grace wrote may have a been fine for a gay Iceman, but I'm *not sure it fit Bobby Drake's* personal coming out eXperience [the way I imagine(d) it, anyway], and there's a difference.

This is incredibly subjective territory lol. There has been so much repression in Bobby's life that we never knew what his real personality was.

Also, some of ya'll making it seem like Sina wrote him at Will and Grace levels.

Honestly, if Cyclops were into men, I don't think he'd like Wolverine, he'd be into, like, math homework or something.

I... honestly expected the second part of that sentence to mention Hellion.

As an aside, this got me thinking who the male version of Emma is and it got real depressing when I realized OG Hellfire was schlubby older men and Emma.

Fox prettied up Shaw and Donald Pierce by casting Kevin Bacon and Boyd Holbrook respectively. Speaking of the latter, X-Books need a Corinthian style hot queer male villain.

[Frobisher]

Honestly, if Cyclops were into men, I don't think he'd like Wolverine, he'd be into, like, math homework or something.

This is 100% why I don't buy it.

[Triniking1234]

I'm honestly trying to figure out what books people read pre-Austen where they thought Bobby was gay.

Honestly, if Cyclops were into men, I don't think he'd like Wolverine, he'd be into, like, math homework or something.

This feels like a call-out post.

[Nicoclaws]

People complaining about "others wanting to impose their (LGBT+) headcannons" while imposing their straight headcannons...

Also for people quoting Claremont on LGBT+ things while he had a kinda fetichizing view on it, that's always fun.

[Confuzzled]

Claremont legit admitted he gets mad when new writers make developments he wanted to make but couldn't in his OG runs lol. He's not going to praise Tini even if he always shipped Betsy and Rachel, much less if he fantasized about them being queer but didn't ship them together.

Btw, he had characters calling Rachel code words for lesbian in his 80's run.

[Nicoclaws]

Claremont legit admitted he gets mad when new writers make developments he wanted to make but couldn't in his OG runs lol. He's not going to praise Tini even if he always shipped Betsy and Rachel, much less if he fantasized about them being queer but didn't ship them together.

Btw, he had characters calling Rachel code words for lesbian in his 80's run.

From what I read in old interviews and what I'm reading in the pages (still on my Excalibur reread, there were FILLER issues my god), he likes to portray his women ambiguously bi so he can still fantasize about them pegging him.