Changing sexualities of the modern X-Men

[Triniking1234]

I see Mercury and Karolina slander. smfh y'all are heathens.

[Ulysian_Thracs]

This goes back a long, LONG way. Kirk/Spock slash fic is probably as old as Star Trek itself. And don't forget about Frodo and Sam, which adds extra helpings of "Completely missed the point" when fanon makes their relationship romantic.

No less (and probably more) cringy. Particularly Sam and Frodo. Ew!

But I could see it from Kirk's angle. Pretty much the entire show revolved around a marty stu sticking it in strange new places. :c)

[Rev9]

You misinterpreted my post in several ways. First, I said it can be done well and listed the times I thought it was. (FAR from an exhaustive list of LGBT characters.) At least those are the ones I remember with any specificity. I admit 'coming out' stories aren’t something that particularly appeal to me or that I seek out to read. But they can be done very well and very entertaining, and I am not opposed to reading them when they are. I certainly wouldn’t avoid a book I am otherwise interested in because it has a coming out story…

But I abhor the forced, shoehorned ‘wokism’ of making virtually any and every character LGBT when it doesn't add to (or actively subtracts from) the story. And that is what most of these 'suddenly gay' reveals feel like, at least to me. Cheap plot devices to distract from middling stories and writing. A few off the top of my head:

-Kitty and her ‘oh, I was always bi-‘ thing. 'Didn't you all know that about me'?

-Prodigy suddenly becoming gay/bi and crossdressing as Tinkerbelle…why exactly? And more importantly why now? What purpose does changing this character serve?

I’ve never been a huge Prodigy fan because he rubbed me the wrong way the way he picked on Elixir in the first books. But I found it kind of a forced pivot to go from one extreme (sucker punching Hellion for Surge kissing him) to the other with nothing in between.

-Exodus, probably the most powerful mutant after Jean and Legion, is suddenly just a love-struck Twilight teen with a millennia long unrequited crush on his best friend. (Angsty antireligious de-closeting drama likely to ensue…)

Why can’t two men (or women, who they do this even more often with) just be really good friends? Why can’t there be a deep platonic love and caring for each other with absolutely no romantic feelings or homoerotic undertones (or outright overtones) on either side? I always hated the way Liu’s shipping X-23/Jubilee really cheapened what seemed like a really good sisterly bond. Same thing with Kidon and their friendship. It was like no one could just be Laura's friend and care about that poor, abused girl as a person without wanting to get in her panties because Liu needed to make her so perfect and loved to fill whatever need Liu was missing in her real life. (Except her old NXM friends, of course, who legitimately cared about Laura as a person, especially Hellion, and they all got pushed aside for these new ‘grown up’ connections.)

-Cyclops and Logan suddenly being ‘more than not-quite-friends’? W-T-F is this, bad fan fiction? The only reason for these two characters to have anything more than grudging respect for each other is that they both love the X-men and the same woman. (And apparently Cyclops doesn’t mind sharing her with Logan and Jon Hamm and whoever else she wants to bang?) Seriously, the most reasonable explanation for any of this polyamory schlock is that Jean mind controls Scott to let her get some animalistic side piece action, then one night she had a headache and they were both pestering her for sex so she mind controlled them to go screw each other and leave her the hell alone. #GirlBoss

And you also misinterpreted my Mystique comment entirely. I don't think she is bi because she is a sociopathic villain. I think she would very easily be what we consider bi-sexual because she has absolutely no concern for both gender or society's norms. She is also very selfish and would go take whatever she wanted without second thought to the point she wouldn't spare a second to even wonder what her sexuality is. Labels like that don't matter to her. She wants what she wants. If she finds it attractive, she would want it and go try to take it. Boy, girl, or purple horse.

(I also think Sinister would be openly bi. He wants to experience everything at least in a scientific way.)



I could see this. It would certainly be a much more interesting take…the things we do as supervillains to survive!

Some truth right here!

[Nicoclaws]

Ok I usually don't answer when I read certain red flags, but I will cave this one time.
The complaint about tokenism is nonsensical, as there are now out LGBT characters in several teams. They don't need to introduce a token gay (the notion of tokenism is also kinda wrong but whatever).
Unironicals complaints about "wokism" discredits a lot of what you're going to say, too.

You misinterpreted my post in several ways. First, I said it can be done well and listed the times I thought it was. (FAR from an exhaustive list of LGBT characters.) At least those are the ones I remember with any specificity. I admit 'coming out' stories aren’t something that particularly appeal to me or that I seek out to read. But they can be done very well and very entertaining, and I am not opposed to reading them when they are. I certainly wouldn’t avoid a book I am otherwise interested in because it has a coming out story…

But I abhor the forced, shoehorned ‘wokism’ of making virtually any and every character LGBT when it doesn't add to (or actively subtracts from) the story. And that is what most of these 'suddenly gay' reveals feel like, at least to me. Cheap plot devices to distract from middling stories and writing. A few off the top of my head:

"any and every" calm down there are like 10 among 500.

-Kitty and her ‘oh, I was always bi-‘ thing. 'Didn't you all know that about me'?

Kitty's bisexuality was hinted WAY MORE than Iceman's. Her own creator wrote her like that (you can search this thread and the many others about the same subject on this same forum) and would have probably outed her himself if not for homophobic comics rules. Also it was only one kiss and has never been referenced again. I completely agree that if Duggan considers that a coming out story he is sorely mistaken.

-Prodigy suddenly becoming gay/bi and crossdressing as Tinkerbelle…why exactly? And more importantly why now? What purpose does changing this character serve?

I’ve never been a huge Prodigy fan because he rubbed me the wrong way the way he picked on Elixir in the first books. But I found it kind of a forced pivot to go from one extreme (sucker punching Hellion for Surge kissing him) to the other with nothing in between.

Prodigy has now been bi/pan for half of his published history. His coming out was a character plot and his bisexuality was actually explained instory, and explored later. What do having cat add to Gambit ? What do being christian add to Nightcrawler ? What do anything add to characters ? It humanizes them. Coming out is one of many human experience.
Also, if you don't understand how a recently out character would like to push boundaries in the Hellfire Gala, you're missing the point of the Gala and the discussion about gender and clothes in the real world. See Lil Nas X or Billy Porter for the inspiration on that "Tinkerbell" look.

-Exodus, probably the most powerful mutant after Jean and Legion, is suddenly just a love-struck Twilight teen with a millennia long unrequited crush on his best friend. (Angsty antireligious de-closeting drama likely to ensue…)

Haven't read that yet (cannot wait though). Repressed sexuality is kind of a common trope when deconstructing religious characters, and Gillen admitted he was drawing from his own experience here.

Why can’t two men (or women, who they do this even more often with) just be really good friends? Why can’t there be a deep platonic love and caring for each other with absolutely no romantic feelings or homoerotic undertones (or outright overtones) on either side? I always hated the way Liu’s shipping X-23/Jubilee really cheapened what seemed like a really good sisterly bond. Same thing with Kidon and their friendship. It was like no one could just be Laura's friend and care about that poor, abused girl as a person without wanting to get in her panties because Liu needed to make her so perfect and loved to fill whatever need Liu was missing in her real life. (Except her old NXM friends, of course, who legitimately cared about Laura as a person, especially Hellion, and they all got pushed aside for these new ‘grown up’ connections.)

I agree with the fact that two characters should be able to be friends without any hint of romance, whatever their gender. IMO they also could be friend with sexual and romantic relationship. Friendship and romance are complex and fun to explore !
I don't think Liu wrote Jubilee and X-23 as lovers though. It's just the particular sexual element inherent to the vampire thing that made it a bit weird for readers.

The "push" for homosexual ships by some fans has been explained in tons of literature, but as I understand it's because
1) there have been historically few females characters not designed to be "love interest" so the fans latched on relationships between characters with actual characterization and relationships (aka men).
2) there have been even fewer homosexual relationships (they were forbidden for some time, mind you), so queer fans explored other possibilites.
3) we love drama and tension and sexual tension. People shipped Madison Jeffries with his coffee maker. It's a human thing.

-Cyclops and Logan suddenly being ‘more than not-quite-friends’? W-T-F is this, bad fan fiction? The only reason for these two characters to have anything more than grudging respect for each other is that they both love the X-men and the same woman. (And apparently Cyclops doesn’t mind sharing her with Logan and Jon Hamm and whoever else she wants to bang?) Seriously, the most reasonable explanation for any of this polyamory schlock is that Jean mind controls Scott to let her get some animalistic side piece action, then one night she had a headache and they were both pestering her for sex so she mind controlled them to go screw each other and leave her the hell alone. #GirlBoss

An old couple exploring open relationships is kinda usual, especially if they live in a community actively exploring new concepts and new morals. If you don't understand open relationships it's ok, maybe you'll see it one day maybe not. Cyclops and Wolverine having sex together is more of a wink wink nudge nudge moment and a badly done one. I think we would all love to see it actually well written and explored, but Hickman preferred to keep it as hints for "some" reasons (money).

And you also misinterpreted my Mystique comment entirely. I don't think she is bi because she is a sociopathic villain. I think she would very easily be what we consider bi-sexual because she has absolutely no concern for both gender or society's norms. She is also very selfish and would go take whatever she wanted without second thought to the point she wouldn't spare a second to even wonder what her sexuality is. Labels like that don't matter to her. She wants what she wants. If she finds it attractive, she would want it and go try to take it. Boy, girl, or purple horse.

Yeah, you said morals and I assumed you were talking about the facts she has none. And as I said, that's a bad trope. But you're explanation is less offensive (although I don't quite understand the selfishness thing but I think I see what you mean.

(I also think Sinister would be openly bi. He wants to experience everything at least in a scientific way.)

He did try to have sex with men and women. He finds it gross. He only have Sinister on Sinister intercourse. (see Gillen Uncanny run).
But here we go back to weird tropes. Sexuality doesn't need to be tied to an agenda or some character traits. Exploring things in a scientific way doesn't make someone bi and it certainly has very little to do with rationnality XD (I know it's not what you meant to say, but I'm underlining the trope).

[Icefanatic]

Lobdell was pretty clearly building for a reveal that Bobby was gay, though it ended up undercut by Onslaught/OZT and then he left the book.

Yep. Uncanny X-Men #331 was all over the place implying it.

Back in the day when the 'debate' about Iceman's sexuality was raging on the old CBR, and people kept insisting that Scott Lobdell and Fabian Nicieza saw Iceman as gay and were writing him as gay and that there were all these clues to it in the books and they were going to out him I finally posted links to discussions at fans events where they both said otherwise. Scott Lobdell flat out said he was straight and that the stuff in the books by him and Fabian were JOKES. That Marvel kept getting these letters from some fans who insisted Iceman was gay and they thought that was funny so they put jokes alluding to it in the books. That Iceman was straight and anything they did that suggested to anyone something otherwise were just jokes not intended to be taken seriously. And they were far from the only writers to make such jokes.

After Benids outed Iceman a fan asked Scott Lobdell on Twitter to do something similar to a straight character he was then writing at DC. He replied "that would be like making Bunker(who is gay and Hispanic) straight and white. I'm not Bendis."

Fabian actually talked about how some fans, even after flat-out being told that Iceman was straight, then wanted to know if there was some way that he could be 'made gay' to satisfy their view of him. I believe one fan actually suggested that Iceman could be hit with some kind of 'gay ray' to change his sexuality from straight to gay.

Sharing that actually ended the debate... for about a week! Then people went right back to insisting that Scott and Fabian wanted him to be gay and were writing him as such and were planning to out him, even though many of them saying that now knew it wasn't true!

That's when I stopped 'debating'. What's the point of debating with people who will still insist on believing something is true even when they know it isn't.

I do still correct factual inaccuracies because if the truth isn't repeated by those who know it, these days all anyone will have left are falsehoods and lies.

Also, while not on most peoples' radar, Peter B. Gillis' run of the Defenders back in the 80s, where Bobby 'saved' Hank from a woman's flirting by introducing himself as Hank's boyfriend Lance, then dated a new amnesiac superhuman named Cloud before she literally shifted into a male presenting form while they were naked in bed together, and then had an internal crisis about but specifically what did this all mean about HIM, asking textbook 'am currently questioning my sexuality very much' questions before yes, breaking up with Cloud because Comics Authority Code was a thing but also otherwise remaining besties with Cloud and acting exactly the same towards them as before and seemingly no different in how emotionally invested he was in their dynamic, and oh yeah, there was that little bit where when Moondragon used her psychic powers to try and influence all the men on the team into being besotted with her so they'd unquestioningly help get rid of the headband that put a cap on her telepathy, out of all of them Bobby was notably the LEAST affected or different in his behavior towards her, with even Cloud being shown as more drawn to Moondragon than he was.....and with all of this happening within a span of like, the less than twenty-five issues Gillis spent with this lineup.....

I mean, I'm just saying. That always did a feel a little subtext-y to me too. Go figure.

As someone who has read and reread every issue of Iceman's time in the Defenders countless times, starting with writer J.M. DeMatteis and ending with Peter B. Gillis, so much of what you posted is just flat out NOT TRUE.

Bobby never even slept with Cloud, they were never naked in bed together. The first time she was shown as a man was when she revealed herself to Moondragon.





The only internal crisis Bobby ever had with Cloud was wondering if he was being a hypocrite for negatively reacting to Cloud's uncontrolled gender-switching in the context of how some people had treated him as a mutant. He never had any crisis regarding his own sexuality.

Bobby was show as being the same amount of attracted to Moondragon as everyone else, it was usually represented by having multiple people having the exact same thoughts about her, most often Bobby, Hank and Warren all had the exact same thought balloons.



The only one who was actually completely vulnerable to Moondragon's limited telepathy was Cloud's male side because it was being suppressed in her subconscious and didn't have the resistance of a conscious mind.

The only indication there was anything different between Bobby and Moondragon was a one-panel comment made in the final issue of New Defenders by Moondragon that he was 'cold to her advances' and he replied she was crazy.

Iceman-is-gay fans have seized on it as proof Iceman was gay.

Iceman-is-straight fans knew that statement conflicted with what had been shown on-panel and wondered if The Dragon of the Moon being in control of Heather at that point meant anything. Was Heather Douglas saying that or was The Dragon of the Moon saying it. And did that have anything to with the Iceman/Dragon/Oblivion stuff that had begun in the Iceman miniseries by J.M. DeMatteis after he handed the Defenders off to Peter B. Gillis, planned stuff that was abruptly being aborted because the Defenders were being canceled to reunite the original X-Men as X-Factor?

Not to worry, Thankfully J.M. DeMatteis had been required to consult with the X-Men editor at the time, Louise Simonson, when he was doing the first Iceman miniseres, and she was able to take that ball and run with it(along with her husband Walt who was also doing Thor) when she took over writing X-Factor just a few issues later.

Still. it would be a couple of decades before Andy Lanning and Dan Abnett, in Guardians of the Galaxy, also writers of the second Iceman miniseries, showed the Dragon of the Moon resting in the Outer Void, home of Oblivion, after Heather Douglas's death.... sleeping while waiting for a new host to be born. As Maelstrom says in the story, Heather is always the Dragons' conduit to the world, and he is stuck waiting for her to be reborn, but what it really wants is to leave the void in a new host. a living being, and bring about Cosmic Armageddon.

Of course, the Outer Void is a death realm, and the only way a living being can enter it is by being erased from existence. As Iceman was as a consequence of an alteration to time in the first Iceman miniseries. And since Iceman is secretly a dark analogue to the Phoenix known as the Dragon that is destined to destroy reality, it's a good thing the Iceman fans have known for decades hasn't been somehow erased from existence as a consequence of time being rewritten again and is still with us, the same as he ever was...

[Icefanatic]

This goes back a long, LONG way. Kirk/Spock slash fic is probably as old as Star Trek itself. And don't forget about Frodo and Sam, which adds extra helpings of "Completely missed the point" when fanon makes their relationship romantic.

Kirk/Spock slash fic is the origin of the term 'slash' for such parings. It was pushed primarily by a group of ladies who became known as the 'K/S ladies' who would often even give unsuspecting fans copies of their 'work'. Writer David Gerrold, (who is gay if that is relevant to anyone) and who is probably best known as the guy who wrote the infamous Trouble with Tribbles episode of the original series talked about unsuspecting fans having unpleasant encounters with the K/S ladies in one of his books.

Undoubtedly it existed long before then in some form. Their have been fans who insisted Sherlock Holmes and John Watson were lovers since their inception.

I have no doubt something like this actually happened...

A primitive man paints a scene of two warriors, friends, perhaps even brothers on a cave wall.

Another primitive man sees it and declares they are a cute couple.

"No! They are friends, like brothers!"

"Well, what are they doing?"

"One warrior is handing the other his spear."

"Oh, he's handing him his spear alright..."

The difference now is that some writers and editors have gone from protecting who characters actually are and the story being told with them from all of that, aside from in-jokes or an occasional nod of acknowledgement that some vocal minority of fans sees the characters that way, to reveling in it for the momentary attention and then attacking fans for rejecting it.

Fans across genres and mediums now find ourselves living in a post-cannon world, as the current caretakers of pre-existing characters redefine them into the stuff of bad fan-fic.

[Kingdom X]

You misinterpreted my post in several ways. First, I said it can be done well and listed the times I thought it was. (FAR from an exhaustive list of LGBT characters.) At least those are the ones I remember with any specificity. I admit 'coming out' stories aren’t something that particularly appeal to me or that I seek out to read. But they can be done very well and very entertaining, and I am not opposed to reading them when they are. I certainly wouldn’t avoid a book I am otherwise interested in because it has a coming out story…

But I abhor the forced, shoehorned ‘wokism’ of making virtually any and every character LGBT when it doesn't add to (or actively subtracts from) the story. And that is what most of these 'suddenly gay' reveals feel like, at least to me. Cheap plot devices to distract from middling stories and writing. A few off the top of my head:

-Kitty and her ‘oh, I was always bi-‘ thing. 'Didn't you all know that about me'?

-Prodigy suddenly becoming gay/bi and crossdressing as Tinkerbelle…why exactly? And more importantly why now? What purpose does changing this character serve?

I’ve never been a huge Prodigy fan because he rubbed me the wrong way the way he picked on Elixir in the first books. But I found it kind of a forced pivot to go from one extreme (sucker punching Hellion for Surge kissing him) to the other with nothing in between.

-Exodus, probably the most powerful mutant after Jean and Legion, is suddenly just a love-struck Twilight teen with a millennia long unrequited crush on his best friend. (Angsty antireligious de-closeting drama likely to ensue…)

Why can’t two men (or women, who they do this even more often with) just be really good friends? Why can’t there be a deep platonic love and caring for each other with absolutely no romantic feelings or homoerotic undertones (or outright overtones) on either side? I always hated the way Liu’s shipping X-23/Jubilee really cheapened what seemed like a really good sisterly bond. Same thing with Kidon and their friendship. It was like no one could just be Laura's friend and care about that poor, abused girl as a person without wanting to get in her panties because Liu needed to make her so perfect and loved to fill whatever need Liu was missing in her real life. (Except her old NXM friends, of course, who legitimately cared about Laura as a person, especially Hellion, and they all got pushed aside for these new ‘grown up’ connections.)

-Cyclops and Logan suddenly being ‘more than not-quite-friends’? W-T-F is this, bad fan fiction? The only reason for these two characters to have anything more than grudging respect for each other is that they both love the X-men and the same woman. (And apparently Cyclops doesn’t mind sharing her with Logan and Jon Hamm and whoever else she wants to bang?) Seriously, the most reasonable explanation for any of this polyamory schlock is that Jean mind controls Scott to let her get some animalistic side piece action, then one night she had a headache and they were both pestering her for sex so she mind controlled them to go screw each other and leave her the hell alone. #GirlBoss

And you also misinterpreted my Mystique comment entirely. I don't think she is bi because she is a sociopathic villain. I think she would very easily be what we consider bi-sexual because she has absolutely no concern for both gender or society's norms. She is also very selfish and would go take whatever she wanted without second thought to the point she wouldn't spare a second to even wonder what her sexuality is. Labels like that don't matter to her. She wants what she wants. If she finds it attractive, she would want it and go try to take it. Boy, girl, or purple horse.

(I also think Sinister would be openly bi. He wants to experience everything at least in a scientific way.)



I could see this. It would certainly be a much more interesting take…the things we do as supervillains to survive!

Maybe you should unpack why anyone being queer would “subtract” from them? In real life many people “suddenly” come out these days because they find the process of doing a big coming out exhausting and unnecessary. Also there aren’t nearly as many examples of this as you’re claiming.

1. Kitty being suddenly bi. There’s way too many Claremont interviews where he talks about hinting that Kitty was bi (and way too many panels where it looks like she’s ABOUT to kiss a girl) for this to be sudden. Also she’s still not canonically bi. She kissed one girl on panel. The word bisexual still hasn’t been used and Marvel doesn’t feature her in their Pride promotions (and you know they would if it was confirmed).

2. Prodigy. Didn’t Gillen make him bi in like 2014? Also his explanation made sense to me. Prodigy was absorbing the experiences of ALL the people around him and that awakened the fact that he’s also attracted to dudes. Big whoop. And side note... he was mean to Elixir because he was part of a bigoted hate group. It makes sense that a black mutant would have his guard up.

3. Laura and Jubilee. They’re still just friends. Even if Liu intended for there to be subtext, she wasn’t able to canonize it so you can absolutely still read that dynamic as purely platonic if you wanted.

4. Scott and Logan. Again… not canon. There was one speedo joke.

I’ll give you that the Exodus one was random (but again he just says the word "love" a lot so one could interpret that as brotherly love), however the genre still very much leans straight. If the very presence of non-straight undertones rubs you the wrong way, then idk what to tell you because you’re still winning as most of them won’t be canonized or confirmed. And folks shipping based on those undertones isn’t some malicious plot to get rid of strong platonic relationships (I love a good story about platonic love), it’s usually folks just being starved of representation and taking the crumbs they can get.

[Micabe]

Ok I usually don't answer when I read certain red flags, but I will cave this one time.
The complaint about tokenism is nonsensical, as there are now out LGBT characters in several teams. They don't need to introduce a token gay (the notion of tokenism is also kinda wrong but whatever).
Unironicals complaints about "wokism" discredits a lot of what you're going to say, too.

"any and every" calm down there are like 10 among 500.
Kitty's bisexuality was hinted WAY MORE than Iceman's. Her own creator wrote her like that (you can search this thread and the many others about the same subject on this same forum) and would have probably outed her himself if not for homophobic comics rules. Also it was only one kiss and has never been referenced again. I completely agree that if Duggan considers that a coming out story he is sorely mistaken.


Prodigy has now been bi/pan for half of his published history. His coming out was a character plot and his bisexuality was actually explained instory, and explored later. What do having cat add to Gambit ? What do being christian add to Nightcrawler ? What do anything add to characters ? It humanizes them. Coming out is one of many human experience.
Also, if you don't understand how a recently out character would like to push boundaries in the Hellfire Gala, you're missing the point of the Gala and the discussion about gender and clothes in the real world. See Lil Nas X or Billy Porter for the inspiration on that "Tinkerbell" look.


Haven't read that yet (cannot wait though). Repressed sexuality is kind of a common trope when deconstructing religious characters, and Gillen admitted he was drawing from his own experience here.



I agree with the fact that two characters should be able to be friends without any hint of romance, whatever their gender. IMO they also could be friend with sexual and romantic relationship. Friendship and romance are complex and fun to explore !
I don't think Liu wrote Jubilee and X-23 as lovers though. It's just the particular sexual element inherent to the vampire thing that made it a bit weird for readers.

The "push" for homosexual ships by some fans has been explained in tons of literature, but as I understand it's because
1) there have been historically few females characters not designed to be "love interest" so the fans latched on relationships between characters with actual characterization and relationships (aka men).
2) there have been even fewer homosexual relationships (they were forbidden for some time, mind you), so queer fans explored other possibilites.
3) we love drama and tension and sexual tension. People shipped Madison Jeffries with his coffee maker. It's a human thing.



An old couple exploring open relationships is kinda usual, especially if they live in a community actively exploring new concepts and new morals. If you don't understand open relationships it's ok, maybe you'll see it one day maybe not. Cyclops and Wolverine having sex together is more of a wink wink nudge nudge moment and a badly done one. I think we would all love to see it actually well written and explored, but Hickman preferred to keep it as hints for "some" reasons (money).


Yeah, you said morals and I assumed you were talking about the facts she has none. And as I said, that's a bad trope. But you're explanation is less offensive (although I don't quite understand the selfishness thing but I think I see what you mean.


He did try to have sex with men and women. He finds it gross. He only have Sinister on Sinister intercourse. (see Gillen Uncanny run).
But here we go back to weird tropes. Sexuality doesn't need to be tied to an agenda or some character traits. Exploring things in a scientific way doesn't make someone bi and it certainly has very little to do with rationnality XD (I know it's not what you meant to say, but I'm underlining the trope).

Wait... What??? Where and when (please cite title and issue) did read that Nathan Essex tried to have sex with men and women? Methinks you're either exaggerating or flat-out pulling that out of your butt. Which is it?

[Nicoclaws]

Wait... What??? Where and when (please cite title and issue) did read that Nathan Essex tried to have sex with men and women? Methinks you're either exaggerating or flat-out pulling that out of your butt. Which is it?

I'm 99% sure he mentioned it in Gillen's Uncanny run, although I don't have my TP with me. He didn't tried to on panel. This isn't a sitcom (although it would be VERY fun. Like Dr Horrible but even creepier)
Edit : I just found the run on Unlimited. Yay ! I know what I'm reading in the next days ! I'll come back to you if I find it or not.
Edit 2 : please keep me out of your butt obsession.

[Ulysian_Thracs]

Maybe you should unpack why anyone being queer would “subtract” from them? In real life many people “suddenly” come out these days because they find the process of doing a big coming out exhausting and unnecessary. Also there aren’t nearly as many examples of this as you’re claiming.

This isn't real life. These aren't human beings. They are figments of imagination whose only value is to tell a story. Hopefully a good one. Being gay wouldn't subtract from a human being, but often it does subtract from the story of these imaginary characters because in almost all cases the most defining thing about their characterization instantly becomes their sudden gayness (or the gender/race swap, or whatever) to a large part of the fan base, both those who want to see it and those who don't. It overshadows the actual story, and their purpose in it usually shifts focus to their gayness over their involvement in the actual plot. That is my point. Often this is not done well and subtracts from the story in a way that Gambit's cat never did. (Honestly, I would've thought you of all people would find it offensive to equate a character owning a cat and being gay?)

I also think Marvel and Disney (and Hollywood in general) court controversy on purpose because they think it helps sales. And I equally think they are coming around to understanding it doesn't. Not just WB scrapping 'big tent' movies that focused on LGBT like Batgirl which was going to lose money because it was an LGBT buddy pic more than a superhero movie (from what I've read), but Netflix firing their woke content head, Disney taking a beating for the Don't Say Gay controversy, and the hilarious whining of that guy who made a gay rom-com and then complained straight people aren't interested in seeing it. He's right, the majority of the American audience (less than 10% of Americans self-identify as LGBT) really isn't into gay rom-coms or comics whose main focus becomes a same-sex relationship, as opposed to a comic that focuses on badass hero stuff and has a same-sex relationship in it. That's the hair no one seems to be able to split, with one extreme crying homophobe if you don't want every character to be gay and the other extreme wondering why there are any gays in comics at all.

I am on neither of those extremes. I'm all for watching gay characters (or any kind of characters) in a great, compelling story. But a great, compelling story has to come first for me. I see no value in and of itself for a character being gay or straight or bi. These are not real people. They are literary devices to tell a story.

1. Kitty being suddenly bi. There’s way too many Claremont interviews where he talks about hinting that Kitty was bi (and way too many panels where it looks like she’s ABOUT to kiss a girl) for this to be sudden. Also she’s still not canonically bi. She kissed one girl on panel. The word bisexual still hasn’t been used and Marvel doesn’t feature her in their Pride promotions (and you know they would if it was confirmed).

2. Prodigy. Didn’t Gillen make him bi in like 2014? Also his explanation made sense to me. Prodigy was absorbing the experiences of ALL the people around him and that awakened the fact that he’s also attracted to dudes. Big whoop. And side note... he was mean to Elixir because he was part of a bigoted hate group. It makes sense that a black mutant would have his guard up.

I'm sure we look at this from different angles. To me, it was just stark hypocrisy. No better than Hellion's treatment of Elixir, and worse because Prodigy was written to know better and did it anyway.

[Nicoclaws]

Wait... What??? Where and when (please cite title and issue) did read that Nathan Essex tried to have sex with men and women? Methinks you're either exaggerating or flat-out pulling that out of your butt. Which is it?

Welp, I'll have to eat my words, I was totally wrong XD
I was completely persuaded I read it but it turns out there's absolutely NO dialogue talking about Sinister's inclinaison.
He is disgusted by women, who he sees as merely reproductive machines, necessary when a cloning machine is not avalaible but nothing about having sex with either gender.

It's funny re-reading Gillen Uncanny, because current Sinister has actually not much in common with UXM's Sinister. In UXM he was the ultimate victorian english mad scientist. Gillen's take was VERY specific.
Krakoa's Sinister is actually a perfect mix between this and previous more classic villain Sinister. I love them both though.

[gonnagiveittoya]

Oh god please tell me this isnt going to turn into another debate about "it's queerbaiting if the ship I like doesnt become canon"

[Top Hat]

Want to second this thought. I have no objection to queer characters. I do have objections to bad and lazy writing, as well as writers who either don't bother to learn a character's multi-decade history or, even worse, simply don't care about anything but the story they are presently telling. It is a disservice to their predecessors, the fans, and the characters as literary devices meant to move forward into other stories.

LOL the bane of modern fandom people being overly precious about a fictional characters backstory. Seemingly oblivious to how restrictive and unconstructive such attitudes are.

[Nicoclaws]

Oh god please tell me this isnt going to turn into another debate about "it's queerbaiting if the ship I like doesnt become canon"

I think it's more about straightbaiting at this point. Making readers believe characters are straight to lure the poor straight readers in and bam ! Reveal that every character is queer. Such a despicable marketing tool !

[Top Hat]

You guys are missing the most obvious pairing. Marvel’s missing the soap operatic possibilities, too.

Kwannon “Psylocke” and Betsy “Captain Britain!”

Truly, they would be together again for the first time!

Would it even bi- or sapphic? Or would it just be masturbation?

Both Red Dwarf and Rick & Morty have beaten you to that storyline.