Weakest team to defeat Chris Claremont's X-Men

[Jcogginsa]

Did Claremont ever write Rachel as Phoenix? If so that's two phoenixes on the team

[Beadle]

He did. Both in the X-Men (where she was less impressive) and Excalibur. So per the rules of the OP, she should get her Excalibur feats as well. Or at least the ones he wrote.

[Beadle]

I’m cool with that if people go that way. It’s just Phoenix and Dark Phoenix have rather different feats. But if people want to call them the same character, I get that reasoning.

I get your concern. But ultimately ‘The Phoenix’ is one character. It’s not like Rachel or Hope being a host for the Phoenix Force. When Jean was out, it was the Phoenix itself impersonating her while Jean recovered at the bottom of the ocean.

So same character. Good-girl X-Men Phoenix could presumably have destroyed a star system too if she’d been so inclined.

[Jcogginsa]

He did. Both in the X-Men (where she was less impressive) and Excalibur. So per the rules of the OP, she should get her Excalibur feats as well. Or at least the ones he wrote.

Yes, they get the ones he wrote

[Sharpandpointies]

I get your concern. But ultimately ‘The Phoenix’ is one character. It’s not like Rachel or Hope being a host for the Phoenix Force. When Jean was out, it was the Phoenix itself impersonating her while Jean recovered at the bottom of the ocean.

Valid points! . Man, X-Factor did mess things up.

[Beadle]

So essentially we’re talking about any feat of the actual Phoenix Force written by Claremont.

This team will have to be pretty far up the tree. I don’t know that even the Annihilators could do it.

I mean there’s the Justice League One Million, but that’s pretty stoopid high.

[Sharpandpointies]

Taking out the 'host' has always been a possibility, even with the 'Phoenix manifested as Jean Grey'. It's how she killed herself, after all. Original Defenders had Surfer, which means we have him hitting her with planet-sundering energies 0.000 001 seconds after the bell rings or whatever (also handily dealing with most of the rest of the team). Might be enough? Phoenix Force-as-Jean-as-Phoenix always seemed to need a little run-time to get her best stuff up.

Am unsure....

[Phoenixx9]

IMHO, versus Phoenix, really no hope to beat her.

For example, putting things in numerical terms, regular characters would be "30 to 100" in terms of power.

Even heavy hitters like Silver Surfer would only be a "200".

Phoenix would be a "5000".

[Sharkerbob]

Could Mon-El, Laurel, Supers boy or girl K.O. Phoenix before she gets going?

The Phoenix Force also seems to really have a thing for psychic females in particular. I wonder if Saturn Girl could somehow occupy it's attention and keep it too distracted to do much.

[Sharpandpointies]

Phoenix - that is to say, original flavor Phoenix - could be hurt and damaged by sufficient force. Wolverine throwing Colossus at her in a reverse of the Fastball Special (they were on the moon) actually hurt her when Colossus hit her - even pulling his punch, he knocked her down, stunned her, and made her note that he hurt her. This was after she manifested the Phoenix Force again, taking out the Shi'ar Praetorian Guard (and a whack of the X-men) and blowing a hole in Lillandra's flagship, thousands of miles away, with a bolt of energy.

Then she killed herself by taking control of various automated weapon systems on the moon and shooting herself...after she changed into Dark Phoenix. Now, she was TRYING to kill herself, and likely had defenses down, but it shows that her body could be destroyed.

Given this is an arena fight, and she doesn't automatically start defenses up, that gives people like the Flash and PC Super-types a long time to start with the damage. Is it enough?

[Phoenixx9]

Yes, Jean Phoenix/Dark Phoenix could be hurt and was hurt/damaged by the X-Men on the Moon,but ONLY because DP allowed herself to be attacked and damaged. She was trying to wear herself and her energies down enough for the ancient energy weapon to affect her and kill her.

Otherwise, no, nothing they did could have reached her/hurt her/damaged her.

[Shellhead]

Several different JSA line-ups would do well against Claremont's X-Men. Phoenix, meet the Spectre.

[Wildling]

Yes, Jean Phoenix/Dark Phoenix could be hurt and was hurt/damaged by the X-Men on the Moon,but ONLY because DP allowed herself to be attacked and damaged. She was trying to wear herself and her energies down enough for the ancient energy weapon to affect her and kill her.

Otherwise, no, nothing they did could have reached her/hurt her/damaged her.

Didn't Jean just dive into the star in the first place like it was a huge ice cream cone in those Claremont comics?

And while liberties were taken about durability at the time (see Gladiator vs Colossus), I don't think the idea of Phoenix being a "human durability glass cannon" ever became a thing just from Claremont. As recently as the Avengers vs X-Men rumble comic, Gladiator punching Phoenix Cyclops (only partially hosting the Phoenix IIRC) was something that at best jerked his head back, and young Nova bumrushing him was seen as a useless gesture but something that scored him courage points with older heroes.

[Sharpandpointies]

Nobody is actually talking about ‘human durability glass cannon’. As I noted, she ate a flying punch from Colossus with getting KOed and needed to use ancient weapons on the moon to kill herself.

It’s just that energy control and TK were big things to her, and there seems to be a difference in her durability ‘defences up’ and ‘defences down’.

[Wildling]

Nobody is actually talking about ‘human durability glass cannon’. As I noted, she ate a flying punch from Colossus with getting KOed and needed to use ancient weapons on the moon to kill herself.

It’s just that energy control and TK were big things to her, and there seems to be a difference in her durability ‘defences up’ and ‘defences down’.

It's been a long time since I read Claremont comics disconnected from recent runs, I apologize.