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  1. #316
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    A satire on South Park is not reality.



    You suggested they don't include facts, for one. Apologies if that's not what "Presumably it would help to have facts on your side" meant, but that's how it read to me. Also, a deck isn't "one guy," it's usually the work of an entire team who has done extensive number crunching and research for weeks, sometimes months. It's not one person's fanfiction.



    Marriage is highly traditional, so doubtful.

    What it would take is for the team to show that a big stunt involving the marriage of Spider-Man, perhaps tied to a film or TV series, perhaps tied to a touring live event of some kind, perhaps tied to some other big company/general zeitgeist event, would make them measurable additional ancillary revenue that they would otherwise be leaving on the table if they didn't change the status.

    And that could also be tied to demographics shifting such as their audiences is aging as Gen Z is not that interested in superheroes comic books and appealing to nostalgia may sell much better than trying to appeal to the mythical new reader than may never appear, or shifting to a more manga-inspired style of storytelling in which material change, not the illusion of change, occurs in the characters' lives as manga is currently dominating the marketplace and indeed is what helping comic book stores to stay afloat.

    Again, I doubt monthly comic books will still exist in their current format within the next fifteen years, but I admit this one statement is only my opinion.



    Yes, that's what a deck is.

    The goal post shifting was this started as "Something that someone believes would be profitable generally fits their personal preference."

    That's not true. People believe things are profitable that do not fit their personal preferences all the time. A track record of refusing to support things that would be profitable based solely on personal preference is a good way to get fired.



    Doesn't change the fact that's how Wall Street and the world works and will continue to work as long as the United States has a market driven capitalist economy (simplifying, but still). *shrug*



    Attachment 123897
    Avenging Spider-Man was in the Big Time era, not Brand New Day. Comic fans might be thinking way too much about small moments in one-off comics. This was an example of Peter being strong. It doesn't say anything about Mary Jane.



    There are numerous references to the scene of Spider-Man crawling out of the grave Kraven put him in. It's one of the most iconic moments in Spider-Man comics. Some of those make it clear that he did it due to MJ's love. Some don't mention it.

    On decks, we seem to be arguing past one another since you have an implicit assumption that we're talking about good decks where people present accurate information in good faith, which also implies that the spider-marriage is a decision that will hold up to that level of scrutiny.

    While marriage is traditional, one question is whether facts on the ground have somehow changed to make it a more popular option than in the past. It would also have to be a significantly more popular option, because it's easier to maintain the status quo than to do something big and splashy.

    There is one potential thing that might lead to big changes in the comics, which would be the MCU Spider-Man getting married to MJ. That's not likely to occur for another few years, if it ever does.

    Marvel may end up making new decisions about the regular Marvel Universe, but they also reject the idea of allowing material change rather than the illusion of change.

    Wall street's focus on short-term profits is not a good thing. Wise companies would seek ways to navigate that tension, even if they won't always succeed.

    A track record of being incorrect in assessments on what's profitable would hurt someone in a business. Mistakes won't always be found out, and people are in charge of a lot of decisions so when they're clearly in error in one case, they may be offset in a different area.

    And since we're talking about personal preferences, what is yours when it comes to the spider-marriage? Would you prefer for it to come back? Are you indifferent about it? Or do you feel differently about it?
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  2. #317
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Rat View Post
    Lost Hunt. Proves. They. Are. Lying.



    Nick Spencer's run specifically reprinted Harry and MJ's conversation on the bridge from Spetacular#200 where Harry explicitly refers to Peter as MJ's husband.
    There is a potential concern that if people who don't like the current run try to weaponize peripheral projects like Lost Hunt, Marvel won't allow those comics any more. It gets to be too much of a hassle.

    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    Mets: I have made the demographic point before, as it relates to Miles compared to Peter. With an increasing larger minority population ( not to mention globalism) having a Spider-Man that “Looks like readers” makes economic sense, and that fits Miles better then Peter ( we are seeing other Spider characters like Miguel, Cindy and Gwen ( in addition to Miles) to meet that need). I have felt the best compromise is use Miles as the teenage Spider-Man ( including in movies and cartoons), and have Peter with MJ for more adult stories and romance for the older fans who prefer that ( think along the lines of Batman). When can this happen? What about after Amazing 1000? I would like to hear your opinion on that?
    This is a tangent that likely deserves its own thread, but I think it would be a mistake for Marvel to view Miles as a replacement for Peter Parker or for aspects for his character. That can lead to a backlash.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  3. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Avenging Spider-Man was in the Big Time era, not Brand New Day. Comic fans might be thinking way too much about small moments in one-off comics. This was an example of Peter being strong. It doesn't say anything about Mary Jane.
    So many apologies for getting the era wrong.
    However.

    That had nothing to do with my point. And it does not negate the fact Zeb Wells erased Mary Jane from the Kraven's Last Hunt narrative and replaced her role with Uncle Ben.

    Peter crawled out that grave because of his love for Mary Jane. That's what is on the page on Kraven's Last Hunt.

    It is clear Mary Jane is his inspiration and his desire to be with her is what drives him out of the grave.

    There is no way anyone can possess an ounce of reading comprehension and not understand that Peter crawls out of the grave because he loves his new wife. It has nothing to do with his own strength and everything to do with the strength of his love for MJ.

    It is explict on the page. (Sorry, I've tried resizing and it's not working)








    For anyone to misread this as being about Uncle Ben and not about Mary Jane, or to just be generic, requires questioning the person's ability to read in context at all.

    But.

    During this period, there was a concerted effort to downplay Peter and Mary Jane's relationship and especially to sweep under the rug they were married. That's why the reference was changed in Avenging Spider-Man. That's why Peter and MJ were changed to just dating in the novel.

    They are NOT sweeping the marriage under the rug any more. Marvel even included The Wedding in a recent list of best moments from Spider-Man stories.

    That's my point.

    On decks, we seem to be arguing past one another since you have an implicit assumption that we're talking about good decks where people present accurate information in good faith
    How do you think companies work and executives make decisions?!?!

    Of course the information is as accurate as it can be and presented in good faith! Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, if not billions of dollars are at stake! People don't pull stuff out of their posteriors or decide they have some sort of grudge and they are going to change the course of the company just because they feel like it! For one, that's a really good way to a) get fired and then have a difficult time finding a new job b) get sued.


    Wall street's focus on short-term profits is not a good thing. Wise companies would seek ways to navigate that tension, even if they won't always succeed.
    Cool you feel that way.

    A track record of being incorrect in assessments on what's profitable would hurt someone in a business. Mistakes won't always be found out, and people are in charge of a lot of decisions so when they're clearly in error in one case, they may be offset in a different area.
    Bad decisions happen. But those bad decisions were made based on the available facts, figures, projections and key assumptions available at the time. They were not pulled out of thin air nor someone's posterior. Their decision had to be supported and backed up with facts and research studies and experiments and past results and many, many numbers were crunched.

    Do you think executives just lick their fingers and stick them in the air to make decisions and only go with their emotions? Because I'm having a hard time following this line of argument. It is so far outside how corporate America works that the dissonance is pretty overwhelming.


    And since we're talking about personal preferences, what is yours when it comes to the spider-marriage? Would you prefer for it to come back? Are you indifferent about it? Or do you feel differently about it?
    What difference does it make what I prefer? My preferences have no bearing on the discussion.

    As I previously said: This isn't about preferences at all. It's about business.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 08-15-2022 at 12:23 AM.

  4. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    There is a potential concern that if people who don't like the current run try to weaponize peripheral projects like Lost Hunt, Marvel won't allow those comics any more. It gets to be too much of a hassle.



    This is a tangent that likely deserves its own thread, but I think it would be a mistake for Marvel to view Miles as a replacement for Peter Parker or for aspects for his character. That can lead to a backlash.
    Perhaps, though it already caused a certain level of backlash when Miles Morales was first introduced in Ultimate Fallout #4 after Ultimate Peter Parker died in The Death of Spider-Man. If Marvel got through that and persisted with Miles as a character, even though they brought back Ultimate Peter near the end of the Ultimate Universe's run and then had Miles coexist as a --- but not the --- Spider-Man with 616 Peter Parker . . . to me, it would stand to reason that they could find a workable balance. As for Miles replacing Peter in any aspects, I'd say that as a Spider-Man, there are certain elements of his story and character that are going to riff on what was established by Peter's initial and ongoing runs as the Amazing Spider-Man in the first place, albeit moving in different directions at some points than Peter would or did. I'd even go so far as to say that pretty much every successor Spider-Man is and has been a riff on Peter Parker in one way or another, though Miles is the highest-profile because he was "replacing" Peter in what was then the present, not the distant future like Miguel O'Hara from Marvel 2099, for one example.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  5. #320
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    Bit dramatic are we?

    Of course Marvel will allow more projects like Lost Hunt if it sells well or sells modestly. Fans aren't looking to 'weaponize' anything, Marvel want us to vote with our wallets and support marriage content in whatever form it takes so we can prove to the company there is still a demand for it that is on equal footing with the online support. Marvel can't just spring the marriage on their current 'new' readership (what exists of it), they have to reintroduce it gradually, and without meddling in current stories. The peripheral work has to go into these things, and from, they determine if it's worth revisiting in a larger capacity.

    Even if they didn't go through with more of this (as if), a walkback of some sorts happened. The marriage means something again, it's not an alternate universe, and readers are introduced to the idea that Peter was at one point a functioning adult, husband and expectant father to be. It's a victory for the character and for the marriage movement that will sustain us for years more to come.

    Rather than play it down or flat out dismiss it as 'not mattering' (aka giving in), Support it, pay for it, both the floppy and the trade, if you want the marriage back so badly, take the scraps and stop being stubborn.
    Last edited by Matt Rat; 08-15-2022 at 02:46 AM.

  6. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Rat View Post
    Bit dramatic are we?

    Of course Marvel will allow more projects like Lost Hunt if it sells well or sells modestly. Fans aren't looking to 'weaponize' anything, Marvel want us to vote with our wallets and support marriage content in whatever form it takes so we can prove to the company there is still a demand for it that is on equal footing with the online support. Marvel can't just spring the marriage on their current 'new' readership (what exists of it), they have to reintroduce it gradually, and without meddling in current stories. The peripheral work has to go into these things, and from, they determine if it's worth revisiting in a larger capacity.

    Even if they didn't go through with more of this (as if), a walkback of some sorts happened. The marriage means something again, it's not an alternate universe, and readers are introduced to the idea that Peter was at one point a functioning adult, husband and expectant father to be. It's a victory for the character and for the marriage movement that will sustain us for years more to come
    Rather than play it down or flat out dismiss it as 'not mattering' (aka giving in), Support it, pay for it, both the floppy and the trade, if you want the marriage back so badly, take the scraps and stop being stubborn.
    We have already seen game playing and meddling in current stories. Remember the Strange/Mephisto panel during the Spencer run? That is what I remember from that comic.

  7. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post

    What difference does it make what I prefer? My preferences have no bearing on the discussion.

    As I previously said: This isn't about preferences at all. It's about business.
    Kinda odd that you deem to keep your preference to yourself. Preferences tend to drive the business model one supports.

  8. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by wleakr View Post
    Kinda odd that you deem to keep your preference to yourself. Preferences tend to drive the business model one supports.
    A) I stated my preferences earlier in the thread. Both you and Mr. Mets are welcome to go back and read if either of you chose. It's even in a response to Mr. Mets. And earlier I discuss it as well. Regardless, it's irrelevant to the discussion of how businesses behave in 21st century United States.

    B) My entire point is business isn’t about stanning for a side and it’s irrelevant what anyone prefers, including those who sit in the executive offices, as the only thing businesses stan is profits. Again, you are welcome to go back and read my posts.

    And even sports are driven by analytics and yes, decks these days - there’s an entire movie and book, Moneyball, that explains why.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 08-15-2022 at 10:50 AM.

  9. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    A) I stated my preferences earlier in the thread. Both you and Mr. Mets are welcome to go back and read if either of you chose. It's even in a response to Mr. Mets. And earlier I discuss it as well. Regardless, it's irrelevant to the discussion of how businesses behave in 21st century United States.

    B) My entire point is business isn’t about stanning for a side and it’s irrelevant what anyone prefers, including those who sit in the executive offices, as the only thing businesses stan is profits. Again, you are welcome to go back and read my posts.

    And even sports are driven by analytics and yes, decks these days - there’s an entire movie and book, Moneyball, that explains why.
    I really disagree. Actually I wish the overwhelming majority of what companies care about most is profits ( companies should have an obligation to their shareholders). But today quite a bit of it is politically driven. You seem to forget the word ¬ďWoke¬Ē and what it means.

  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I really disagree. Actually I wish the overwhelming majority of what companies care about most is profits ( companies should have an obligation to their shareholders). But today quite a bit of it is politically driven. You seem to forget the word ¬“Woke¬” and what it means.
    Gen Z and Millennials are far more socially minded than Gen X or Boomers and make their purchases accordingly.

    They ARE being driven by money.

  11. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I really disagree. Actually I wish the overwhelming majority of what companies care about most is profits ( companies should have an obligation to their shareholders). But today quite a bit of it is politically driven. You seem to forget the word ¬“Woke¬” and what it means.
    'Woke' has lot all meaning nowadays.

  12. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Rat View Post
    'Woke' has lot all meaning nowadays.
    Know what's funny? If we define 'Woke' as "appealing to a demographic not represented", Peter Parker is technically Marvel's most 'Woke' character.

    Both Peter and Miles were designed to appeal to demographics that were underrepresented. In Miles' case it was Latinos and black people, in Peter's case it was teens and skinny men like Jimmy Olsen.

  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by hoth82 View Post
    Really not too crazy about this Black Cat/Mary Jane book either. Most likely means neither one of them will be in the main Spider-Man titles very much or at all and I donít enjoy loveless Peter stories/runs.
    Most of Peters stories is about him being loveless and without a love interest.

  14. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Refrax5 View Post
    It's so ridiculous that they think him being "relatable" means he can never get married. I've never been married, but I still related to Spider-Man when he was. So many people I know are married or in long term relationships. It's a very common and, dare I say, relatable state of being. The character just feels like he's in a dead end the way they're going. It's not that he HAS to be married, but the idea that there's all these rules about what stories can be told with him just makes it all feel so forced and unnatural.
    I think its more the concept of Peters image being pitched as the ultimate up coming underdog and young adult who doesnt really truly mature into an adult person and obtain benefits of said adult priorities like being a husband or father, I think being single helps Peter maintain his purity as a crossroads between a kid and a man who doesnt have his life together. I mean even most of his married stories was a sequence of hits and miss experiementation and instability for a young guy who doesnt have his shit together becsuse hes very new to things as a man with a wife, while struggling to make ends meet like he just does as a teenager he didnt even have insurance for himself and his family.

  15. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoodj View Post
    I mean even most of his married stories was a sequence of hits and miss experiementation and instability for a young guy who doesnt have his shit together becsuse hes very new to things as a man with a wife, while struggling to make ends meet like he just does as a teenager he didnt even have insurance for himself and his family.
    Lol. I think he has insurance through his reserve Avengers membership!

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