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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    And does anyone at this point really think there's much more mileage out of a single Peter?
    There wasn't that much mileage in it when post-OMD launched, Peter was never going to act like how he was while single or with other women in the 70s and 80s, they had to modernise him, who wants to emulate a millennial?
    Last edited by Matt Rat; 08-09-2022 at 08:23 AM.

  2. #182
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    Peter is moving to Gen z

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I simply think the guy who wrote Amazing Spider-Man for about a decade in the post-marriage years, pitched Renew Your Vows, and worked on the character in video games and animation, has a deeper understanding of what Marvel Entertainment wants from the brand, the restrictions in place, and the company's internal politics, than fans on Internet forums do.
    Dan Slott wrote that in 2017.

    Since 2017:
    Slott was replaced as ASM writer
    Joe Quesada was relieved of his Chief Creative Officer title and demoted to executive vice president and creative director
    Kevin Feige was named Chief Creative Officer
    Joe Quesada left Marvel
    Bob Iger left Disney
    Bob Chapek took over as CEO of Disney
    Alan Horn left Disney
    Alan Bergman took over as Chairman, Disney Studio Content
    The globe has been through a pandemic
    Local comic book stores were hit hard by shutdowns. They discuss how manga has risen in popularity and that's what is keeping their doors open, not monthly floppy sales.
    Marvel and DC have changed their distribution strategy, also discussed as something that negatively affected local comic books stories, and are looking for new audiences
    Gen Z isn't as interested in comic books and cosplay as millennials. Marvel is already appealing to younger Gen X/older Millennials by bringing back 90s creators such as Michelinie to Venom, JMD to Spider-Man, etc.

    The only constant in life is change.

    Dan's word is not written in stone tablets and he does not possess a crystal ball. Was that true when he said it? I'm sure he believed he was telling the absolute truth. Is it true now? Who knows, there's been a lot of turnover at Disney and Marvel and the market is very different.

    Is it technically possible that they could remarry Spider-Man on a permanent basis? Sure. Just as it's technically possible that they could permanently replace T'Challa with a caucasian Black Panther.
    That would be white-washing. That is a fallacious analogy and that's all I'm going to say in a message board post.

    When people say it's never coming back, they're specifically talking about the core, regular continuity comic book Marvel Universe, in the present day.
    You kept insisting Disney would never allow it because it would hurt their Spider-Man brand.

    Tens of millions of people have seen Into the Spider-Verse, if not more.

    Maybe 500,000 people, being very generous, read a monthly comic book.

    For an exponential number more of people, Peter B. Parker is their image of the Spider-Man brand. Therefore, Disney feels it is appropriate for Peter to be married or even divorced and to be portrayed as a thirty-something adult. Therefore, a married status in the comics, which are seen by a very, VERY miniscule audience by Disney standards, would not be necessarily forbidden by the company.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 08-09-2022 at 02:22 PM.

  4. #184
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    The Chicago-native fan that confronted Cebulski at C2E2 has spoken out.

    https://www.spidermancrawlspace.com/...riage-at-c2e2/

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Rat View Post
    The Chicago-native fan that confronted Cebulski at C2E2 has spoken out.

    https://www.spidermancrawlspace.com/...riage-at-c2e2/
    Too bad this fan’s argument is based on the belief that Marvel is “wrong”.

    We all have preferences. They are not always going to align with the direction of this book.

    Also mentions he is “right” based on the applause he received on the question. You look can be applauded and it does not mean the majority agrees with you! The world applauds most things just because someone else does.

    It’s said all the time: vote with your wallet. Or sit back and enjoy the show!

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Rat View Post
    The Chicago-native fan that confronted Cebulski at C2E2 has spoken out.

    https://www.spidermancrawlspace.com/...riage-at-c2e2/
    I see he has the highest of opinions about himself, doesn't he?
    Last edited by Sr. Bungle; 08-09-2022 at 02:37 PM.

  7. #187
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    I want to believe MAYBE Marvel is playing with us. I mean, back when Ultimate Peter Parker died, we were told he would never return, but he did in the end. So, if Marvel is playing the same thing with us around the Spider-Marriage. (I really hope so).

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Dan Slott wrote that in 2017.

    Since 2017:
    Slott was replaced as ASM writer
    Joe Quesada was relieved of his Chief Creative Officer title and demoted to executive vice president and creative director
    Kevin Feige was named Chief Creative Officer
    Joe Quesada left Marvel
    Bob Iger left Disney
    Bob Chapek took over as CEO of Disney
    Alan Horn left Disney
    Alan Bergman took over as Chairman, Disney Studio Content
    The globe has been through a pandemic
    Local comic book stores were hit hard by shutdowns. They discuss how manga has risen in popularity and that's what is keeping their doors open, not monthly floppy sales.
    Marvel and DC have changed their distribution strategy, also discussed as something that negatively affected local comic books stories, and are looking for new audiences
    Gen Z isn't as interested in comic books and cosplay as millennials. Marvel is already appealing to younger Gen X/older Millennials by bringing back 90s creators such as Michelinie to Venom, JMD to Spider-Man, etc.

    The only constant in life is change.
    All of those changes have brought us to 2022, and C B Cebulski saying that Marvel still has no interest in Peter getting married or having a family. The policy on Spider-Man's marital status hasn't changed. In another 5 years from now, the post-marriage era will have been just as long as the marriage era.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    Dan's word is not written in stone tablets and he does not possess a crystal ball. Was that true when he said it? I'm sure he believed he was telling the absolute truth. Is it true now? Who knows, there's been a lot of turnover at Disney and Marvel and the market is very different.
    He wasn't talking short-term, he was talking long-term. He spent years as the lead Spider-Man comic book writer and has worked on Spider-Man in three different entertainment mediums. He said that the decision goes above the Marvel Comics EIC, he said that it's about brand management, and that the obstacles in the way would be insurmountable.

    Some things are incredibly unlikely from a brand management perspective. It is incredibly, incredibly unlikely that Carol Danvers will be reverted back to the Ms. Marvel identity and black leotard and thigh highs costume. Some vocal fans would absolutely love that, but it isn't on the cards, and it's incredibly unlikely to ever be on the cards again. Married Spider-Man is the same thing, but with a significantly more valuable IP. It's not on the cards.

    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    You kept insisting Disney would never allow it because it would hurt their Spider-Man brand.

    Tens of millions of people have seen Into the Spider-Verse, if not more.

    Maybe 500,000 people, being very generous, read a monthly comic book.

    For an exponential number more of people, Peter B. Parker is their image of the Spider-Man brand. Therefore, Disney feels it is appropriate for Peter to be married or even divorced and to be portrayed as a thirty-something adult. Therefore, a married status in the comics, which are seen by a very, VERY miniscule audience by Disney standards, would not be necessarily forbidden by the company.
    Into the Spider-Verse is a Miles Morale movie all about alternate universes, where Peter Parker is the secondary character. That version of Peter Parker wasn't the focus and won't be around forever.

    The comic book version of Spider-Man is the original and ongoing version that will in theory be around "forever". Every part of the Marvel Entertainment empire draws from the comics. Stories, characters and concepts largely originate in the comics and, if they work, are adapted into other media.

    Marvel Entertainment doesn't want that version of Spider-Man, the original, long-running one that everything else draws from, to be married.

    If that feels inconsistent to you, then that feels inconsistent to you. But it is what it is. It's Marvel's stance that the mainline continuity version of Spider-Man not be married. That's only allowed in alternate universes and untold tales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    I want to believe MAYBE Marvel is playing with us. I mean, back when Ultimate Peter Parker died, we were told he would never return, but he did in the end. So, if Marvel is playing the same thing with us around the Spider-Marriage. (I really hope so).
    Cebulski gave a straight answer. Whenever this question has come up, Marvel staff tend to give a straight answer. This is bigger than reverting the death of an alternate universe Peter Parker.

    Some fans were convinced that the unmarrying wouldn't last a year. Then that it wouldn't last 5 years. That it would be undone with Secret Wars. That it would be undone by the end of Nick Spencer's run. That it would be undone when Joe Quesada leaves.

    Marvel, as a company, has taken a hard stance on this.

    The window of opportunity to send Marvel a message was immediately after One More Day. If Amazing Spider-Man sales dropped to cancellation levels, that would have set off alarm bells. If MC2 Spider-Girl sales had also skyrocketed, that would have given even more weight to the message. But ultimately, enough readers continued to buy Amazing Spider-Man and Marvel got through the transitionary period relatively smoothly. They got through the hard part over 14 years ago, there's no incentive for them to do it all over again.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Cebulski gave a straight answer. Whenever this question has come up, Marvel staff tend to give a straight answer. This is bigger than reverting the death of an alternate universe Peter Parker.

    Some fans were convinced that the unmarrying wouldn't last a year. Then that it wouldn't last 5 years. That it would be undone with Secret Wars. That it would be undone by the end of Nick Spencer's run. That it would be undone when Joe Quesada leaves.

    Marvel, as a company, has taken a hard stance on this.

    The window of opportunity to send Marvel a message was immediately after One More Day. If Amazing Spider-Man sales dropped to cancellation levels, that would have set off alarm bells. If MC2 Spider-Girl sales had also skyrocketed, that would have given even more weight to the message. But ultimately, enough readers continued to buy Amazing Spider-Man and Marvel got through the transitionary period relatively smoothly. They got through the hard part over 14 years ago, there's no incentive for them to do it all over again.
    Well, as fasr as I see, this can't long anymore for Marvel. I mean, the thing about Peter Parker is making him "relatable" for the readers; but which readers are going to feel related with a complete loser with no stable job, not ongoing life, whose mother figure seems to be immortal and no friends or social life?

    I don't know about you, but the message here for me is "Don't bother, your life stinks because you are a good-for-nothing loser, and nothing you do will change; because even when you have some luck, you will end back to the start square once more". With such message, I simply want stay in bed until I die.

    We already have new heroes to covers new readers, a new geenration: Kamalah Khan, Miles Morales, Nova Alexander.... When is Marvel going to accept that keeping Peter Parker in the same status quo is going nowhere?
    Last edited by Ursalink; 08-09-2022 at 05:23 PM.

  10. #190
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    They're allowed to write stories where Peter has a stable job, friends, a social life and a relationship. They're just not allowed to write stories where Peter is married (unless it's an alternate universe or untold tale).

    If you don't like the current direction, then the best thing you can do is stop buying the title (or reading it on Marvel Unlimited or your library, that shows demand as well) and send a polite letter to the Spider-Man office explaining the reasons why you dropped the book. If enough people stop reading, and they get enough correspondence with the same criticisms, then they'll change course.

    Of course this doesn't mean they'll cater to every criticism. They're still in the business of selling comics, and a big part of that is drumming up excitement with dramatic stories with strong hooks and twists and turns and cliffhangers.

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    They're allowed to write stories where Peter has a stable job, friends, a social life and a relationship. They're just not allowed to write stories where Peter is married (unless it's an alternate universe or untold tale).

    If you don't like the current direction, then the best thing you can do is stop buying the title (or reading it on Marvel Unlimited or your library, that shows demand as well) and send a polite letter to the Spider-Man office explaining the reasons why you dropped the book. If enough people stop reading, and they get enough correspondence with the same criticisms, then they'll change course.

    Of course this doesn't mean they'll cater to every criticism. They're still in the business of selling comics, and a big part of that is drumming up excitement with dramatic stories with strong hooks and twists and turns and cliffhangers.
    Thank you so much for your advice. I hope people follow it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    All of those changes have brought us to 2022, and C B Cebulski saying that Marvel still has no interest in Peter getting married or having a family. The policy on Spider-Man's marital status hasn't changed. In another 5 years from now, the post-marriage era will have been just as long as the marriage era.
    Excellent point. Shows that no status quo lasts forever.

    Also, Marvel editorial has been known to obfuscate - they did about Colossus being dead "forever" when they knew he was coming back - and Marvel editorial is allowed to change their minds, y'know, just like how Quesada changed his mind about allowing crossovers between the Ultimate U and 616.

    Cebulski will not be EIC forever, either. Brevoort will leave, too. That's how life works. People age, companies turnover.

    He wasn't talking short-term, he was talking long-term. He spent years as the lead Spider-Man comic book writer and has worked on Spider-Man in three different entertainment mediums. He said that the decision goes above the Marvel Comics EIC, he said that it's about brand management, and that the obstacles in the way would be insurmountable.
    And that was five years ago. Things have materially changed. They will be materially changed in another five years. And fifteen. And fifty.

    Some things are incredibly unlikely from a brand management perspective. It is incredibly, incredibly unlikely that Carol Danvers will be reverted back to the Ms. Marvel identity and black leotard and thigh highs costume. Some vocal fans would absolutely love that, but it isn't on the cards, and it's incredibly unlikely to ever be on the cards again. Married Spider-Man is the same thing, but with a significantly more valuable IP. It's not on the cards.
    Neither was remarrying Lois and Clark.
    Neither was selling alcohol in Disneyland. I don't think you realize just how enormous a shift that was, breaking one of Walt's commandments for Walt's original park. But it happened. If Disney can make that change - and believe me, the theme parks, especially the ones Walt himself touched, matter waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more to the Disney company, their history, their overall corporate brand/mission/values and their self-image than a company they acquired for the cheap IP - anything can change.

    Into the Spider-Verse is a Miles Morale movie all about alternate universes, where Peter Parker is the secondary character. That version of Peter Parker wasn't the focus and won't be around forever.
    The movie will long outlast something like, say, Superior, in the general public's minds. Long, long, long outlast.

    For every 1 person who picks up a comic book, 10000 have seen Into the Spider-Verse. That's how miniscule the audience is comic books and how big it is for films. Disney's only concern about the Spider-Man brand is that it sells movie tickets, it sells Disney+ subscriptions, it sells toys, it sells theme park admissions. In fact, the comics should experiment more. They have room to play with the characters as they are nothing but a cheap source of IP to Disney. Disney could care less as long as they own the copyright and trademarks; look at the new Spider-Man animated series, which is using characters from the Runaways and Amadeus Cho and Agents of Atlas. That's not on brand for Spider-Man. Disney don't care.

    The comic book version of Spider-Man is the original and ongoing version that will in theory be around "forever".
    No, it won't. First of all, there is no such thing as forever. Everything has an expiration data.

    Second, I doubt monthly comics will survive another fifteen years. There is already talk that Discovery Warner is looking to get rid of DC the publishing house. Monthlies cost too much, are too difficult to distribute and get into people's hands, and are a bad dollar to entertainment value compared to other media. Gen Z is the least interested generation in comic books outside of Boomers.

    Every part of the Marvel Entertainment empire draws from the comics. Stories, characters and concepts largely originate in the comics and, if they work, are adapted into other media.
    You mean like a thirty old Peter Parker who is seeking to reconcile with Mary Jane?

    Marvel Entertainment doesn't want that version of Spider-Man, the original, long-running one that everything else draws from, to be married.
    Today is just one more day and one moment in time. Tomorrow is a brand new day and no one knows what it brings. Not even Dan Slott from 2017.

    If that feels inconsistent to you, then that feels inconsistent to you. But it is what it is. It's Marvel's stance that the mainline continuity version of Spider-Man not be married. That's only allowed in alternate universes and untold tales.
    And it wasn't allowed in untold tales until this year....

    Your arguments do not feel inconsistent, rather IMO it appears irrational not to apparently grasp the fact nothing stays the same, forever doesn't exist, and change is the only constant in life while clinging to something one person said in 2017.

    You can get your cocktail at the Blue Bayou Restaurant in New Orleans Square, if anyone wants to know where Disneyland sells alcohol. Me, I'm going to go watch an episode of Superman & Lois.
    Last edited by TinkerSpider; 08-09-2022 at 07:00 PM.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Rat View Post
    The Chicago-native fan that confronted Cebulski at C2E2 has spoken out.

    https://www.spidermancrawlspace.com/...riage-at-c2e2/
    Interesting to hear his thoughts, but he comes off as being pretty entitled and I question his logic (and I'm speaking a no compromise marriage fan). While I don't agree with Marvel's reasoning that Spider-Man can't be married because he wouldn't be relatable (heck, that's one of the most relatable aspects of the character), the fan's citing stuff like MC2 Spider-Girl and RYV misses the point that the only Spider-Man Marvel doesn't want married is the 616 version, something they've been pretty consistent about (whether or not you agree with the decision). Also, insisting that the editors are lying about being unable to give you want you want because you think they owe it to you is circular reasoning, at best (also, the whole argument of disrespecting paying fans falls flat when you consider that we've seen for years now that unmarried Spider-Man sells well enough that Marvel hasn't needed to undo OMD).

    If anything, I have way more respect for Cebulski himself after this, for handling an obnoxious, aggressive person with grace and giving an honest and rational answer for why Marvel is doing what they're doing (up to and including when they tell him to his face that they're going to prove him wrong).
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    They're allowed to write stories where Peter has a stable job, friends, a social life and a relationship. They're just not allowed to write stories where Peter is married (unless it's an alternate universe or untold tale).

    If you don't like the current direction, then the best thing you can do is stop buying the title (or reading it on Marvel Unlimited or your library, that shows demand as well) and send a polite letter to the Spider-Man office explaining the reasons why you dropped the book. If enough people stop reading, and they get enough correspondence with the same criticisms, then they'll change course.

    Of course this doesn't mean they'll cater to every criticism. They're still in the business of selling comics, and a big part of that is drumming up excitement with dramatic stories with strong hooks and twists and turns and cliffhangers.
    MC2's Spider-Girl and RYV clearly proved they can write dramatic stories with strong hooks and twists and turns and cliffhangers. It seems they are simply lazy because it seems that it's way easier for them to keep writing the same old stories over and over.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    MC2's Spider-Girl and RYV clearly proved they can write dramatic stories with strong hooks and twists and turns and cliffhangers. It seems they are simply lazy because it seems that it's way easier for them to keep writing the same old stories over and over.
    Granted, if the orders to write single Spider-Man are coming from on high, then the individual writers aren't being lazy, but just working within the assignment given them.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  15. #195
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    So...anybody excited for the MJ/Black Cat series?

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