The C2E2 Spider-man 60th Panel, some interesting things been said.

[RJT]

Ditko drew MJ twice in his run, the first time being about 6 issues before Gwen shows up. MJ's first appearance thus technically predates Gwen by about 6 months.

And that's just her physical appearance. Her first mention was in ASM#15... which came out over a year before Gwen's first appearance.

It's clear from the way Ditko presented her that she was a knockout compared to every other love interest he presented, and that she would be the endgame and "main" true love.

Quote from Gerry Conway, who grew up reading the Ditko run:

"I don’t think that Ditko’s Gwen Stacy was actually in line to become Peter’s girlfriend…This is a dim memory. I think she was being set-up as Harry Osborn’s potential girlfriend. It’s hard to know what Ditko intended…What we do know about Mary Jane is that it was a running gag that we never see her face. But she kept coming back, kept coming back. It was always being withheld. Who she was and what she looked like. Ditko did that for a reason. He was clearly leading to some kind of revelation. That Mary Jane is the opposite of what Peter was expecting. That was the revelation. Then of course Romita paid it off. But on some level you think that was what Ditko intended too. Which would mean that the next logical step was that she would become Peter’s girlfriend. I think that’s where Ditko intended to head things."

-The Comics Cube. Interview with Gerry Conway. YouTube. Dec 17 2021. Timestamp: 15:55-20:00.

There is a reason Quesada and the OMD Team never brought up Ditko when making their case. They knew that if they try to use Ditko to make a case against Peter being with MJ, the actual evidence would speak for itself.

Ditko drew MJ twice in his run, the first time being about 15 issues before Gwen shows up. MJ's first appearance thus technically predates Gwen's by over a year.

It's also clear from the way Ditko presented her that she was a knockout compared to every other love interest he presented, and that she would be the endgame and "main" true love.

Quote from Gerry Conway, who grew up reading the Ditko run:

"I don’t think that Ditko’s Gwen Stacy was actually in line to become Peter’s girlfriend…This is a dim memory. I think she was being set-up as Harry Osborn’s potential girlfriend. It’s hard to know what Ditko intended…What we do know about Mary Jane is that it was a running gag that we never see her face. But she kept coming back, kept coming back. It was always being withheld. Who she was and what she looked like. Ditko did that for a reason. He was clearly leading to some kind of revelation. That Mary Jane is the opposite of what Peter was expecting. That was the revelation. Then of course Romita paid it off. But on some level you think that was what Ditko intended too. Which would mean that the next logical step was that she would become Peter’s girlfriend. I think that’s where Ditko intended to head things."

-The Comics Cube. Interview with Gerry Conway. YouTube. Dec 17 2021. Timestamp: 15:55-20:00.

There is a reason Quesada and the OMD Team never brought up Ditko when making their case. They knew that if they try to use Ditko to make a case against Peter being with MJ, the actual evidence would speak for itself.

I know that if I were creating a character's one true love, I'd put a plant in front of her so no one could see what she looked like.

And Quesada and co didn't bring up Ditko at the time (I'll take your word since I'm not a OMD Kremlinologist) probably because outside of one obscured figure, he never drew Mary Jane. It's probably the same reason they never ask Marc Silverstri his thoughts on what they are doing with Venom since he drew his arm in Web of Spider-Man 18.

I don't know what Ditko thought about Mary Jane, and I wouldn't presume to guess, other than to say that it does seem that leaving Spider-Man was a painful experience for him, since he did further work for Marvel but refused to ever draw the character again. So I doubt he was keeping up with what happened in the book post ASM 38.

But here is what John Romita Sr had to say: "Stan wanted Gwen to be Peter's girlfriend...he started using Mary Jane to make Gwen jealous of Peter. Gwen would have never noticed Peter if Mary Jane hadn't started throwing herself at him."

And Gerry Conway: "Glory Grant was a strong and sexy female. It was my intention she would have a romantic relationship with Peter, but it never went anywhere."
"During my second run in the late eighties I was more interested in the secondary characters because I had sort of moved on emotionally from where Peter was. He was too happily married for me."

Marv Wolfman: "I had Peter propose to Mary Jane in my first issue to end their relationship. Peter always worked better when he was a loser who worked hard. I didn't think he should be dating someone who looked like a supermodel."

Roger Stern: "Spider-Man doesn't seem like Spider-Man anymore. It all seemed to fall apart when he got married. I'm not saying I would have never married Peter off, but I wouldnt have paired him with Mary Jane. She worked best as a spoiler, an old girlfriend who would occasionally appear to mess up Peter's life. She and Peter really cared about each other and they had some good times together, but they were like oil and water. I never thought the marriage would work. When I wrote Hobgoblin Lives Peter seemed different to me. It was like running into an old friend that you knew in college. He had changed and wasn't as happy as he used to be."

Tom DeFalco/Ron Frenz: "Our original plan was to take Pete and Mary Jane through all the steps of the engagement process. They were going to set a date and Mary Jane's past would come back to haunt her. Her sister would contact her right before the wedding and give her a chance at reconciliation. She would use that as an excuse to run away from Pete because she was still afraid of being tied down. Pete would be out fighting super-villains and barely get to the church on time. Harry would meet him on the steps and we would have this silent sequence where he gives the wedding ring back to Pete. As Harry walks away, the ring drops out of Pete's hand and the scene ends with a long shot of Pete standing all by himself. Anyway, Jim Shooter decided that Pete and Mary Jane would actually get married...I was offered the chance to pencil the wedding issue, but turned it down because it didn't feel right to me."

David Michelinie: "I actually wrote the wedding issue--but it wasn't my fault! I didn't think they should actually get married. I only wrote the script...Jim Shooter wrote the final plot."
"I wasn't keen on the marriage from the start, in fact I was plainly against it. I think it diminished the identification factor with the reader. I thought it was a big mistake, like when they decided to have Peter graduate from college. It changed a basic aspect of the character, but there was nothing I could do about it."

[Lee]

Would I ask someone I just met in person what they do for a living? Yes. That question makes up 99.256849% of small talk among people who just met in social situations in the United States. For example, I've worked for two Fortune 500 companies with experience analyzing media companies and properties. RJT recently said he was a creative writing teacher. I believe I read in earlier posts that Mr. Mets is a teacher or was a teacher. Now, maybe you can figure out our identities from that...but I doubt it.

You're being disingenuous.

I don't believe you would say "I am citing reality how corporations in 21st century United States work. If you want to receive your MBA to better understand my souce of reality, I can point you to some very good programs. I'm sorry reality isn't a good enough answer for you, and you failed to answer if you have ever worked for a corporation, much less held a management posiiton, so you might lack the experience/knowledge to grasp this is indeed reality, but it is reality nonetheless." to someone you just met in person, when talking about Spider-Man. But I could be wrong about that.

At this point the conversation is no longer about Spider-Man. I'm here on the Spider-Man forum to talk about Spider-Man, without snark or rudeness.

[RJT]

After receiving his marching orders. In interviews he's said he was quite annoyed at being told to split them and would have stayed on the book longer if that hadn't happened.

I've always had an issue with this version of events. JMS was a top writer in comics and was a successful television writer and producer. If he really objected to OMD he never would've written any part of it. JM DeMatteis quit writing Captain America after Jim Shooter changed the ending to his big storyline. Joshua Fialkov was an up-and-coming writer who was hired to take over Green Lantern Corps and quit rather than write a story where John Stewart was killed, and he was in nowhere near the position that JMS was. He never got work at DC again. JMS went from OMD to writing the FF and then Thor. He quit Thor when he didn't want to tie into Siege, and that was a much smaller infringement than OMD was. So I've always felt if JMS really didn't want to do OMD, he would've quit. That he didn't finish the last part suggests he and Quesada disagreed with how far back to go. According to Quesada: "In his story, Mephisto was going to change continuity from as far back as issues #96-98 from 1971. In Joe’s story, Peter drops the dime on Harry, and that helps get him into rehab right away. Consequently, MJ stays with Harry, and Gwen never dies and never has her affair with Norman, etc., etc. And in the end, Peter and MJ are never married." And the problem with this was that it conflicted with the work the Brand New Day creators had already completed.

[TinkerSpider]

You're being disingenuous.

I don't believe you would say "I am citing reality how corporations in 21st century United States work. If you want to receive your MBA to better understand my souce of reality, I can point you to some very good programs. I'm sorry reality isn't a good enough answer for you, and you failed to answer if you have ever worked for a corporation, much less held a management posiiton, so you might lack the experience/knowledge to grasp this is indeed reality, but it is reality nonetheless." to someone you just met in person, when talking about Spider-Man. But I could be wrong about that.

At this point the conversation is no longer about Spider-Man. I'm here on the Spider-Man forum to talk about Spider-Man, without snark or rudeness.

I would. because a) I am indeed citing business reality but b) not everyone has the same baseline of knowledge and c) understanding the other person's position and if they have the knowledge/experience to grasp the argument is important in a discussion. Also, this discussion had been going for a while. No snark was intended, very sorry for making you feel this way.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I know that if I were creating a character's one true love, I'd put a plant in front of her so no one could see what she looked like.

In spite of all the evidence, Ditko didn’t intend MJ to be Peter’s true love because he drew a plant. Got it.

And Quesada and co didn't bring up Ditko at the time (I'll take your word since I'm not a OMD Kremlinologist) probably because outside of one obscured figure, he never drew Mary Jane. It's probably the same reason they never ask Marc Silverstri his thoughts on what they are doing with Venom since he drew his arm in Web of Spider-Man 18.

I don't know what Ditko thought about Mary Jane, and I wouldn't presume to guess, other than to say that it does seem that leaving Spider-Man was a painful experience for him, since he did further work for Marvel but refused to ever draw the character again. So I doubt he was keeping up with what happened in the book post ASM 38.

But here is what John Romita Sr had to say: "Stan wanted Gwen to be Peter's girlfriend...he started using Mary Jane to make Gwen jealous of Peter. Gwen would have never noticed Peter if Mary Jane hadn't started throwing herself at him."

And Gerry Conway: "Glory Grant was a strong and sexy female. It was my intention she would have a romantic relationship with Peter, but it never went anywhere."
"During my second run in the late eighties I was more interested in the secondary characters because I had sort of moved on emotionally from where Peter was. He was too happily married for me."

Marv Wolfman: "I had Peter propose to Mary Jane in my first issue to end their relationship. Peter always worked better when he was a loser who worked hard. I didn't think he should be dating someone who looked like a supermodel."

Roger Stern: "Spider-Man doesn't seem like Spider-Man anymore. It all seemed to fall apart when he got married. I'm not saying I would have never married Peter off, but I wouldnt have paired him with Mary Jane. She worked best as a spoiler, an old girlfriend who would occasionally appear to mess up Peter's life. She and Peter really cared about each other and they had some good times together, but they were like oil and water. I never thought the marriage would work. When I wrote Hobgoblin Lives Peter seemed different to me. It was like running into an old friend that you knew in college. He had changed and wasn't as happy as he used to be."

Tom DeFalco/Ron Frenz: "Our original plan was to take Pete and Mary Jane through all the steps of the engagement process. They were going to set a date and Mary Jane's past would come back to haunt her. Her sister would contact her right before the wedding and give her a chance at reconciliation. She would use that as an excuse to run away from Pete because she was still afraid of being tied down. Pete would be out fighting super-villains and barely get to the church on time. Harry would meet him on the steps and we would have this silent sequence where he gives the wedding ring back to Pete. As Harry walks away, the ring drops out of Pete's hand and the scene ends with a long shot of Pete standing all by himself. Anyway, Jim Shooter decided that Pete and Mary Jane would actually get married...I was offered the chance to pencil the wedding issue, but turned it down because it didn't feel right to me."

David Michelinie: "I actually wrote the wedding issue--but it wasn't my fault! I didn't think they should actually get married. I only wrote the script...Jim Shooter wrote the final plot."
"I wasn't keen on the marriage from the start, in fact I was plainly against it. I think it diminished the identification factor with the reader. I thought it was a big mistake, like when they decided to have Peter graduate from college. It changed a basic aspect of the character, but there was nothing I could do about it."

You’re missing the point. I quoted Conway to provide evidence for Ditko’s intentions. The quotes you provided, on the other hand, present no such evidence.

Serious question: Are we going to play the Word of God game with Spider-Man’s creators (Stan and Steve) when it comes to the marriage? Yes or no? Because if we’re going to play that game like you invited us to, then there is no conceivable way for the pro-OMD crowd to win that game. Not unless they cheat and break the rules.

The reality is that the OMD Team can’t even use Romita’s quote to win this game. Ditko was Spider-Man’s main creator; Stan was the secondary creator. Common sense suggests that Ditko’s opinions and intentions should matter more in the event that fans want to play the Word of God game with Spider-Man.

Even if we give the OMD Team a handicap and let Stan have final say over Ditko, you still run into problems that Stan later came around on MJ and was one of the reasons Peter and MJ got married. The marriage wouldn’t have happened without Stan doing it in the newspaper strip first, and without him persuading current Editorial at the time to go for it.

[RJT]

In spite of all the evidence, Ditko didn’t intend MJ to be Peter’s true love because he drew a plant. Got it.



You’re missing the point. I quoted Conway to provide evidence for Ditko’s intentions. The quotes you provided, on the other hand, present no such evidence.

Serious question: Are we going to play the Word of God game with Spider-Man’s creators (Stan and Steve) when it comes to the marriage? Yes or no? Because if we’re going to play that game like you invited us to, then there is no conceivable way for the pro-OMD crowd to win that game. Not unless they cheat and break the rules.

The reality is that the OMD Team can’t even use Romita’s quote to win this game. Ditko was Spider-Man’s main creator; Stan was the secondary creator. Common sense suggests that Ditko’s opinions and intentions should matter more in the event that fans want to play the Word of God game with Spider-Man.

Even if we give the OMD Team a handicap and let Stan have final say over Ditko, you still run into problems that Stan later came around on MJ and was one of the reasons Peter and MJ got married. The marriage wouldn’t have happened without Stan doing it in the newspaper strip first, and without him persuading current Editorial at the time to go for it.

There's an easy way to counter me. Find an interview where Steve Ditko says he intended Mary Jane to be Peter's wife.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

There's an easy way to counter me. Find an interview where Steve Ditko says he intended Mary Jane to be Peter's wife.

I think this is a semantics game.

[RJT]

I think this is a semantics game.

How so? You are the one who is claiming that it is unassailable that Steve Ditko's intention was that Mary Jane (a character who he never fully drew, and since Stan provided the dialogue over his stories, we have no way of knowing what he intended her to even look like) be Peter's one true love. You keep saying this trumps all other evidence from other creators, so I'm just asking you for the Ditko interview where he said that. Because it isn't anywhere in the books he drew.

[Mercwmouth12]

Dude .....isn't this all just a bit excessive at this point. Why not move the conversation to something else

[Kaitou D. Kid]

How so? You are the one who is claiming that it is unassailable that Steve Ditko's intention was that Mary Jane (a character who he never fully drew, and since Stan provided the dialogue over his stories, we have no way of knowing what he intended her to even look like) be Peter's one true love. You keep saying this trumps all other evidence from other creators, so I'm just asking you for the Ditko interview where he said that. Because it isn't anywhere in the books he drew.

1. I presented you with evidence from Ditko's own run. Others have presented you with evidence of the same. You can choose to ignore it, but simply claiming that the evidence isn't there doesn't mean the evidence isn't actually there.

If you want even more information, here is an article that goes in-depth on MJ's origins:
https://elvingsmusings.wordpress.com...ous-mary-jane/

2. You mention "evidence from other creators", but you provided zero evidence from other creators that Ditko didn't want MJ to be Peter's main love interest. All you provided are opinions from other writers on whether or not they want Peter with MJ. You can agree or disagree with those, but they're all completely irrelevant to the question of what the creators of Spider-Man (primarily Ditko) wanted.

[RJT]

1. I presented you with evidence from Ditko's own run. Others have presented you with evidence of the same. You can choose to ignore it, but simply claiming that the evidence isn't there doesn't mean the evidence isn't actually there.

If you want even more information, here is an article that goes in-depth on MJ's origins:
https://elvingsmusings.wordpress.com...ous-mary-jane/

2. You mention "evidence from other creators", but you provided zero evidence from other creators that Ditko didn't want MJ to be Peter's main love interest. All you provided are opinions from other writers on whether or not they want Peter with MJ. You can agree or disagree with those, but they're all completely irrelevant to the question of what the creators of Spider-Man wanted.

What evidence? He never even drew her face! She never even met Peter while Ditko was drawing the book! You are confusing conjecture with evidence. I provided evidence: Romita saying that Stan (Spider-Man's co-creator) wanted Gwen to be Peter's main love interest. And she was for a very long time! It was only later, after Gwen died that Mary Jane emerged as a romantic foil for Peter.
Fans liked her! Conway and later Stern and DeFalco fleshed her out to make her a really fascinating character. She's far more interesting than Gwen. I just disagree with folks that she should be married to Peter. You're the one who says I am not entitled to that opinion because Steve Ditko intended her to be Spider-Man's true love, and I pointed out that his co-creator preferred Gwen.
You posted a blog post claiming that Ditko intended Mary Jane be Peter's true love.
Here's a blog post claiming the exact opposite, that Ditko wanted Gwen to be with Peter: https://www.comicbasics.com/history-...nd-spider-man/
You know what? We'll never know which is correct because Ditko is dead and famously did not like discussing Spider-Man.
So maybe stop with the appeal to authority.
Another poster asked us (me?) to move on, that this is getting excessive. And it probably is. But these forums are a weird echo chamber where opinions are presented as facts and since the pro-marriage people get so aggressive and haughty that it makes the forums more self-selecting and therefore a bigger echo chamber. I admit that there is a very vocal contingent of people who want the marriage restored. Why can't any of you concede there's a contingent of people who literally could not care less about it and just like reading Spider-Man comics?

[Mercwmouth12]

What evidence? He never even drew her face! She never even met Peter while Ditko was drawing the book! You are confusing conjecture with evidence. I provided evidence: Romita saying that Stan (Spider-Man's co-creator) wanted Gwen to be Peter's main love interest. And she was for a very long time! It was only later, after Gwen died that Mary Jane emerged as a romantic foil for Peter.
Fans liked her! Conway and later Stern and DeFalco fleshed her out to make her a really fascinating character. She's far more interesting than Gwen. I just disagree with folks that she should be married to Peter. You're the one who says I am not entitled to that opinion because Steve Ditko intended her to be Spider-Man's true love, and I pointed out that his co-creator preferred Gwen.
You posted a blog post claiming that Ditko intended Mary Jane be Peter's true love.
Here's a blog post claiming the exact opposite, that Ditko wanted Gwen to be with Peter: https://www.comicbasics.com/history-...nd-spider-man/
You know what? We'll never know which is correct because Ditko is dead and famously did not like discussing Spider-Man.
So maybe stop with the appeal to authority.
Another poster asked us (me?) to move on, that this is getting excessive. And it probably is. But these forums are a weird echo chamber where opinions are presented as facts and since the pro-marriage people get so aggressive and haughty that it makes the forums more self-selecting and therefore a bigger echo chamber. I admit that there is a very vocal contingent of people who want the marriage restored. Why can't any of you concede there's a contingent of people who literally could not care less about it and just like reading Spider-Man comics?

Well Gwen has been replaced by and more successful version and character development and evolution. Even when omd happened to prove Peter could be fine as a single person and have normal problems and have a regular feel as they say. He always finds a way back to Mary Jane Watson. There's always gonna be drama. We had so many supporting characters being added and removed but when all this talk about status quo happening. It breaks do you who Peter is as a character and who is his supporting cast is. Which primarily consists of Mary Jane and aunt may. The rest come and go

[RJT]

Well Gwen has been replaced by and more successful version and character development and evolution. Even when omd happened to prove Peter could be fine as a single person and have normal problems and have a regular feel as they say. He always finds a way back to Mary Jane Watson. There's always gonna be drama. We had so many supporting characters being added and removed but when all this talk about status quo happening. It breaks do you who Peter is as a character and who is his supporting cast is. Which primarily consists of Mary Jane and aunt may. The rest come and go

This is demonstrably not true. Mary Jane has been missing from the book for years at a time at different points.

[Mercwmouth12]

This is demonstrably not true. Mary Jane has been missing from the book for years at a time at different points.

Again as I was saying they tried to give Peter and new cast and that failed over time and then moved back to his core cast

[Kevinroc]

Sure seems like this discussion has moved from a discussion about the marriage to a discussion about MJ in general.