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  1. #106
    Incredible Member magha_regulus's Avatar
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    Silver and bronze age

  2. #107
    Extraordinary Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Classic Superman to me will always be the Golden Age and Fleischer Cartoon.

    I mean, it doesn’t get more retro than this!


  3. #108
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Classic Superman to me will always be the Golden Age and Fleischer Cartoon.
    Yeah, and for me, I'm almost always a comics-first type person, but I've realized and accepted over the years that the Fleischer/Famous cartoons are like a lot of the best elements, the best streamline of the Golden Age comics.
    Things I love: Batman, Superman, AEW, old films, Lovecraft

    Grant Morrison: “Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I didn't find any of those good.And Dcau one was very middling.Sometimes it worked other times it didn't.The scene with clark telling lois he is superman you mentioned was very duality based.Clark was very much doing the "cheeky prankster" thing.You know winking at the camera after lowering your glasses after the show finishes.If you think jackie chan type thing is being butt-monkey then it's not for you.If anything he is just being a monkey..what i am saying..You can't have superman acting clumsy.That would leave the point of the character being not taken seriously.You can't have clark being shown great.Then there is no point for superman.

    For me the Joke is the story.The absurdity of Superman's situation.The guy is literally stuck because of fear people have.So he makes fun of em.When he feels people are being threatened of the same he acts accordingly.Anyways,i don't think it matters.I generally find superman to be bland without duality.I have peter parker i want to read glasses guy being real interpretation.There peter is allowed to act clumsy,,selfish..etc and then learn "with great power..".
    I'm okay with Clark occasionally being the "cheeky prankster". I'm just not a fan of him being a totally clumsy oaf, the way the Donner movies did. And as you've said, you're not the greatest fan of that either.

    I do agree about the duality at the heart of Superman (which applies to most superheroes, at the least the 'traditional' ones). I see that duality as being between the human life he leads as the mild-mannered reporter Clark Kent, and his alien heritage which he gets to manifest as Superman (particularly when it comes to publically using his powers) or as Kal-El (particularly when it comes to engaging with his Kryptonian identity and legacy). I think behind all these identities is the real person, who grew up as Clark Kent and later discovered and embraced his identity as Kal-El as well. Superman is a construct, albeit one that reflects Clark Kent's desire to help people and which also allows Kal-El to publically play a role as an alien refugee serving his adopted homeworld.

    Of course, these nuances evolved over a period of time. In the earliest Golden Age comics, of which you are probably the staunchest advocate on this forum, things were a lot more simple in my view. Clark Kent grew up, discovered he had powers, and decided to use them to help people. He wore the Superman costume to use his powers publically, while he put on glasses as Clark Kent to work as a reporter and investigate crimes and other stories to gather intel for his activities as Superman. Around people like Lois Lane or George Taylor, he occasionally put on an act of being totally meek and timid as Clark, but when he was out on the job, Clark was very much an ace reporter and a crusader and hero in his own right. If you see Clark in those early stories without anyone he personally knows around, there's little to distinguish him from Superman...that part the George Reeves show did get right. And I think in essence that's what Byrne tried to recapture too after decades of 'Clark Kent' being caricatured as a 'false identity', though Byrne significantly moderated the extent to which Clark acted 'mild-mannered' and had him be a lot closer to his true self around Lois and his other friends.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    Yeah, and for me, I'm almost always a comics-first type person, but I've realized and accepted over the years that the Fleischer/Famous cartoons are like a lot of the best elements, the best streamline of the Golden Age comics.
    Agreed. Whenever I think about the Golden Age Superman, or a generic idea of a very retro or early Superman, I tend to picture the Fleischer version over the Siegel/Shuster one. Maybe it's just because I love the aesthetics of the black symbol on the suit. Maybe it's because the look of that first animated Superman is a lot more defined than the look of Superman in the earliest comics. I love the fact that Superman's look in Superman Smashes the Klan was based on the cartoon, and that Tyler Hoechlin wore a suit based on this one in flashbacks to the start of Superman's career in the S&L continuity.

    In fact, given a chance, I'd officially make the Fleischer suit Superman's in-continuity 'Year One' costume
    Last edited by bat39; 04-21-2023 at 10:56 AM.

  5. #110
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    I do agree about the duality at the heart of Superman (which applies to most superheroes, at the least the 'traditional' ones). I see that duality as being between the human life he leads as the mild-mannered reporter Clark Kent, and his alien heritage which he gets to manifest as Superman (particularly when it comes to publically using his powers) or as Kal-El (particularly when it comes to engaging with his Kryptonian identity and legacy). I think behind all these identities is the real person, who grew up as Clark Kent and later discovered and embraced his identity as Kal-El as well. Superman is a construct, albeit one that reflects Clark Kent's desire to help people and which also allows Kal-El to publically play a role as an alien refugee serving his adopted homeworld.
    It's paragraphs like this that are why I side with Grant Morrison in rejecting a lot of overly simplistic dualistic aphorisms we hear about Superman or Batman. “Superman is what I can do. Clark is who I am.” or Didio's "Bruce was the mask, and Batman, the true face." It's at least a little more complicated than that with these heroes.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 04-21-2023 at 11:03 AM.
    Things I love: Batman, Superman, AEW, old films, Lovecraft

    Grant Morrison: “Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    It's paragraphs like this that are why I side with Grant Morrison in rejecting a lot of overly simplistic dualistic aphorisms we hear about Superman or Batman. “Superman is what I can do. Clark is who I am.” or Didio's "Bruce was the mask, and Batman, the true face." It's at least a little more complicated than that with these heroes.
    Oh absolutely!

    Well, "Superman is what I can do" does make sense in context, if you consider a Clark Kent who doesn't really know much (or anything at all) about his Kryptonian heritage. The sense in which he feels 'alien' is down to his powers i.e. the extraordinary things that he can do, which he mostly does as Superman. Superman is also an identity Clark has created to be able to use his powers to help people in public. So in that sense, yeah, Superman is pretty much what he does while Clark is the real person.

    But once you factor in his knowing about Krypton, and engaging with that identity beyond just the mere fact of having powers, things change. Superman goes from just being a costumed alter-ego for Clark Kent to being his primary means of engaging with his Kryptonian heritage. This becomes even more evident in the versions (most of them now, really) where the 'S' is a Kryptonian symbol. It is as Superman that he can openly be Kal-El, the last son of Krypton. It is as Superman that he can hang out at the Fortress of Solitude, or visit the Bottled City of Kandor, or even have a relationship with his cousin.

    And I think this paradigm keeps shifting with every era and every adaptation, based on what aspects creators with to emphasize, and also the facts of Superman's life in different iterations of the mythos.

    In the Golden Age, for instance, Superman wasn't aware of Krypton, and the stories didn't really focus on it either beyond the origin. Which is why I maintain that back in the Golden Age, Clark Kent was the real identity - sometimes he went out wearing the Superman suit to use his powers publically, and other times he wore glasses and was a reporter (and sometimes, but not always, as reporter Clark Kent he pretended to be a weakling). I think the George Reeves show broadly reflected this status quo (albeit, Reeves Clark never acted as a weakling).

    In the Silver Age though, Superman was very much aware of Krypton, and over time, it was retroactively revealed that he'd known about it since childhood! The stories started to focus a lot more on Krypton as well. This significantly changed the complexion of the character. He was aware of his alien heritage and his identity as Kal-El all his life. When you combine this with the fact that he put on the costume and became Superboy as a pre-teen, then you have a situation where Superman has been a manifestation of his Kryptonian identity and heritage right from the start. And since he's known that he was born Kal-El all his life, it actually does have the implication that 'Clark Kent' is a construct or a 'false identity' of sorts that allows the alien Kal-El/Superman to blend in with humanity and lead a facsimile of a human life when he wants to. So this is where you get the whole 'Superman is the real identity, and Clark is the disguise' idea. And I think the Donner movie kind of leaned towards this too, though in that version he at least grew up as Clark Kent, not knowing his Kryptonian name or heritage. Once he goes to the Fortress though, and spends 12 years(!) with Jor-El's hologram basically being indoctrinated into his Kryptonian heritage, he gets his Superman suit (essentially a colorful Kryptonian suit) and that's who he is now, which 'Clark Kent' being relegated to a disguise.

    Post-Crisis I think there was an effort to go back to the Golden Age interpretation, and redefine it. So he's Clark Kent, who created the costumed identity of Superman to be able to help people with his powers. But unlike in the Golden Age, the 'public' reporter face of Clark Kent is truer to who the man really is, and he doesn't really act as a weakling around Lois or his other friends and colleagues. And then, when he first discovers his Kryptonian heritage and identity as Kal-El, he does reject it (or more accurately, sideline it) to an extent. He does credit his Kryptonian genes with the abilities he enjoys as Superman, but he considers himself a human at his core. Over time though, this stance does soften in both the comics and in adaptations, and he engages with his Kryptonian identity a lot more (which gets tied to 'Superman') while retaining his identity as Clark Kent too. Which gives us the current healthy balance between the two which we have today.

  7. #112
    Astonishing Member Stanlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    It's paragraphs like this that are why I side with Grant Morrison in rejecting a lot of overly simplistic dualistic aphorisms we hear about Superman or Batman. “Superman is what I can do. Clark is who I am.” or Didio's "Bruce was the mask, and Batman, the true face." It's at least a little more complicated than that with these heroes.
    After reading that fabled pitch, I kind of feel icky about Grant's Superman notions. It seemed to basically mirror Brightburn minus homicide and gross rapey vibes which were replaced by an almost android-like detached processing of the world around him predicated on the notion that he is "not" human. That is ... just not Superman to me. I wonder if a bullet was dodged there.
    Last edited by Stanlos; 04-21-2023 at 01:55 PM.

  8. #113
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Okay, gotta admit I never read the Superman 2000 pitch. Was that part of it?
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  9. #114
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    After reading that fabled pitch, I kind of feel icky about Grant's Superman notions. It seemed to basically mirror Brightburn minus homicide and gross rapey vibes which were replaced by an almost android-like detached processing of the world around him predicated on the notion that he is "not" human. That is ... just not Superman to me. I wonder if a bullet was dodged there.
    If I've read that Superman 2000 pitch, I read it a decade or more ago. Judging by All Star and other actually published Morrison stories, I think he struck a great balance. Superman is in fact not human. And so Morrison figured that should not be downplayed and should be a significant part of his mix, besides just his superficial powers like strength, flight, etc. I love the idea of Superman as both human and also not, an insider and an outsider. The best of us, because it just so happens he's also not part of us.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 04-21-2023 at 06:53 PM.
    Things I love: Batman, Superman, AEW, old films, Lovecraft

    Grant Morrison: “Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

  10. #115
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    I'm okay with Clark occasionally being the "cheeky prankster". I'm just not a fan of him being a totally clumsy oaf, the way the Donner movies did. And as you've said, you're not the greatest fan of that either.

    I do agree about the duality at the heart of Superman (which applies to most superheroes, at the least the 'traditional' ones). I see that duality as being between the human life he leads as the mild-mannered reporter Clark Kent, and his alien heritage which he gets to manifest as Superman (particularly when it comes to publically using his powers) or as Kal-El (particularly when it comes to engaging with his Kryptonian identity and legacy). I think behind all these identities is the real person, who grew up as Clark Kent and later discovered and embraced his identity as Kal-El as well. Superman is a construct, albeit one that reflects Clark Kent's desire to help people and which also allows Kal-El to publically play a role as an alien refugee serving his adopted homeworld.
    I am not talking about kal el and clark kent.that's a different story.I think there is no duality there.I think the writers just emphasise more of the american guy/farmboy or the alien immigrant .I am talking about the duality of glasses guy and whomever is the real guy(alien or american guy).Also To be fair,i do prefer kal el being real.kal el being called clark on earth.Because clark acts out his alienness in first pages of action comics without even knowing he is kal el.but,Besides the point.

    It's like this.the glasses guy and superman won't approach a problem the same way.

    A couple of guys in a rocket car starts wrecking havoc.Superman stands in front and taking it head on recklessly.Evem if his hands gets broken in the process he will punch the car.He will get his ass kicked.But,he will punch.Because sheer bull headedness is superman's strategy.You might think that's effective.But, that's not it.You have to sometimes take on people head on by being absolutely the most difficult stubborn person around.The fight response.

    The glasses would run and duck.And when he punches and gets hurt in the process he will show.And the audience will laugh.But,the guy would "accidentally" throw a stock that changes trajectory for short period protecting people.Accidently is in quotation because for obvious reasons.

    Superman is literally bruce lee and jackie chan roller in to one and taking centre stage at different times.That's why i want the glasses guy around.There is nothing like that on paper ever.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 04-21-2023 at 10:49 PM.
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