The LoTR Gate scenario

[Sharpandpointies]

And this is any different than our current world leaders...how?

Not a lot. I mean, I've said as much myself in the thread a couple of times. ^_^ At least at first. So I'm not really disagreeing with you, nope.

Honestly, I'm of the opinion things would improve with this guy in charge. With our level of tech I can see him taking full advantage of automations, technology, etc to do a lot of what he wants, and see him manipulating the masses to want to work for him if he is even slightly better than what we currently got.

Well, they might seem to improve. But Sauron WAS big on slavery, big on 'people knowing their place', big on pecking order and the strong controlling the weak, and really didn't give shits about the 'little people' other than things for him to use. Basically, we'd be living under a world-wide fascist dictatorship the likes of which we've not seen ever before, that would rape the world of its resources, destroy all nature in the search for progress, and annihilate any hope of freedom or choice forever.

Unless you were one of the few people Sauron put in charge of everyone else, in which case hey, you're like one of the billionaires today! Only worse.

So while at the beginning it would probably look a little better...in order to suck people in, I figure...things would rapidly spiral down an even bigger toilet than they are today.

Ah, but it won't just be Frodo and Sam there. The entire fellowship might be there if they weren't split up by the Uruks. As such, I can see Aragorn taking it off of him or Gandalf bonking Frodo on the head and getting it done that way.

Frodo actually chose to leave the Fellowship because he saw what the Ring was doing/could do to it (through what it did to Boromir). So he might just leave anyway. Likely would.

But let's assume that he didn't, and they somehow managed to get to Mt Doom without getting caught (seeing as one of the only reasons they didn't get caught on any number of occasions was 'because Hobbits is really, really sneaky').

Long post - skip to the end if you don't want to read. I did a short summery, so no complaints about me rambling, please. ^_^

For Aragorn tossing it in, he couldn't. Neither could Gandalf, most likely, Gandalf being terrified of even the idea of himself getting the Ring. I mean, Gandalf the White was the only guy who was capable (according to Tolkien) of actually MASTERING the Ring and using it to its full extent to defeat Sauron himself, but Tolkien also noted that Gandalf would fall to the Ring - it would still make him into something terrible (Sauron 2.0, with a side order of 'but I'm righteous!').

The entire point of what happens at Mt. Doom - which Tolkien basically confirms in his writings later - is that nobody could have thrown the Ring it (I mean, in the story - any fictional character more powerful than Sauron should be able to manage). It was at its place of creation, at its most powerful, and the level of corruption and control it carried was immense. That Frodo managed to bring it that far was a heroic feat no other person might have been able to achieve, and he still failed to chuck it in. And, as Tolkien himself notes, no shame to him - nobody would have succeeded.

Every other person in the Fellowship along for the ride would have been under the Ring's corruption all of that time as well. They would never have been able to throw it into the fire. And it's extremely unlikely Frodo would have LET them take the Ring from him, as noted by him putting it on and immediately vanishing from view (I guess we could end up with another mad scramble or something, with Legolas falling into the fire because he gets the Ring and then Aragorn stabs him in the back - Book Aragorn under the Ring's influence, or Movie Aragorn whenever).

I mean...there's a scene at the beginning of the book, where Gandalf says 'Okay, you're asking me why don't we just melt it down now. Well, go ahead. Toss it in your fireplace.' This is the Ring, NOT at its place of power at all (which is a thing in the books) - Frodo takes it, has a hard time coming to a decision, finally works himself up to throw it into the small fire in his fireplace...and finds himself instead putting it back in his pocket.

That's the Ring, far weaker than at the end of the books, not even really in danger (though Frodo doesn't know that), working on Frodo...who is labelled as Tolkien as being 'possibly the only guy in the story who could have managed to carry it all the way to Mt. Doom'.

Cripes, the thing drives Boromir nutso before they get even halfway, when it's nowhere near its place of greatest power. O_o And he's not even carrying it.

Really, the way the Ring gets destroyed is a combination of two things:

1. It's a point that there are greater powers at work in which people must have faith. Gandalf - in the beginning of the books - talks about how everything seemed like random chance, with Gollum finding the Ring, how it came to another one of the few creatures that could withstand it (Bilbo) somehow (and very unlikely), and passed on to Frodo. He spoke of greater powers at work, in having faith that things happen for a reason, and that Gollum himself might have an important part yet to play (and he does, being the guy who actually keeps Frodo safe in parts of the journey and the guy who falls into the fire with the Ring). One might consider this as "Eru Ilúvatar at work" (ie, hand of God). And also the benefits of pity and mercy (Bilbo not stabbing Gollum from invisiblity when he could have).

2. It's a metaphor nodding to the idea (which Tolkien himself actually talks about a lot) that Evil Destroys Itself™. Earlier on in the third book, Frodo says this to Gollum (it's foreshadowing).

In the last need, Sméagol, I should put on the Precious; and the Precious mastered you long ago. If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or to cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command.

When Gollum tries to take the Ring from Frodo on the slopes of Mt. Doom, Frodo fights him off and stands in front of him clutching the Ring. Then Sam - a Ringbearer, himself - has an abrupt vision of Gollum as some crawling creature of vileness (not far off the mark) and Frodo as some towering figure dressed in white, clutching a ring of fire (the Ring) to his chest. And out of the fire a voice speaks (NOT from the white-robed figure, but from the Ring of Fire) saying 'Get away, enough of you, if you touch me again you will throw yourself into the fire.'

[a] figure robed in white, but at its breast it held a wheel of fire. Out of the fire there spoke a commanding voice. 'Begone and trouble me no more. If you touch me ever again you shall be cast yourself into the fire of doom.'

This is Frodo AND the Ring, Frodo finally starting to use the Ring's power to dominate and control (having 'accepted' it at some level - five minutes later he says 'The Ring is MINE'). The command from Frodo and the Ring seems pretty explicit - touch me again and you should throw yourself in the fire.

Gollum gets the Ring...dances with glee...and promptly slips on the edge and falls into the fire.

Evil destroys itself.

Tl;dr: Nobody could have thrown it in, it was too powerful, backed up by stuff in the book and Tolkien's own words in notes and letters. Really, it all boils down to 'greater powers were at work, Frodo did the job he was capable of doing: getting the Ring to where it COULD fall into the flames (and everyone else would have failed even that much)'.

[Cody]

What about Tom Bombadill?

[Captain Smith]

He gets a talk show, sells weed and has a successful organic food line. Or he just defends his land - with measures we don't know. Can he stop a JDAM? Who knows.

[Cody]

No, I mean: wouldn't Tom be able to toss the ring into mt doom? He seemed resistant to it.

[Thane of Fife]

As for making it easier for Frodo, I would argue that an invasion wouldn't necessarily do that. The issue is simple - Frodo failed. The ONLY reason things worked out the way they did is because Gollum fortuitously honked off the Ring enough earlier that, well, things got set up so that into the fire he goes (without Gollum being there, basically the good guys would have lost).

If an invasion occurs, the potential for things to proceed exactly as they did becomes somewhat skewed, and it's possible we end up with Frodo at Mt. Doom WITHOUT Gollum (for whatever reason), in which case...well, Sauron gets Ring.

That's fair.

Ah, but it won't just be Frodo and Sam there. The entire fellowship might be there if they weren't split up by the Uruks. As such, I can see Aragorn taking it off of him or Gandalf bonking Frodo on the head and getting it done that way.

I don't think most of the Fellowship planned to go with Frodo. Gandalf and the other hobbits planned to, sure, but Aragorn and Boromir were planning to go to Gondor and it's not clear how far Legolas and Gimli intended to go. Aragorn only starts to think he needs to go with Frodo after the Balrog incident.

For Aragorn tossing it in, he couldn't. Neither could Gandalf, most likely, Gandalf being terrified of even the idea of himself getting the Ring. I mean, Gandalf the White was the only guy who was capable (according to Tolkien) of actually MASTERING the Ring and using it to its full extent to defeat Sauron himself, but Tolkien also noted that Gandalf would fall to the Ring - it would still make him into something terrible (Sauron 2.0, with a side order of 'but I'm righteous!').

The entire point of what happens at Mt. Doom - which Tolkien basically confirms in his writings later - is that nobody could have thrown the Ring it (I mean, in the story - any fictional character more powerful than Sauron should be able to manage). It was at its place of creation, at its most powerful, and the level of corruption and control it carried was immense. That Frodo managed to bring it that far was a heroic feat no other person might have been able to achieve, and he still failed to chuck it in. And, as Tolkien himself notes, no shame to him - nobody would have succeeded.

Every other person in the Fellowship along for the ride would have been under the Ring's corruption all of that time as well. They would never have been able to throw it into the fire. And it's extremely unlikely Frodo would have LET them take the Ring from him, as noted by him putting it on and immediately vanishing from view (I guess we could end up with another mad scramble or something, with Legolas falling into the fire because he got the Ring and then Aragorn stabbed him in the back (Book Aragorn under the Ring's influence, or Movie Aragorn whenever).

I mean...there's a scene at the beginning of the book, where Gandalf says 'Okay, you're asking me why don't we just melt it down now. Well, go ahead. Toss it in your fireplace.' This is the Ring, NOT at its place of power at all (which is a thing in the books) - Frodo takes it, has a hard time coming to a decision, finally works himself up to throw it into the small fire in his fireplace...and finds himself instead putting it back in his pocket.

That's the Ring, far weaker than at the end of the books, not even really in danger (though Frodo doesn't know that), working on Frodo...who is labelled as Tolkien as being 'possibly the only guy in the story who could have managed to carry it all the way to Mt. Doom'.

Cripes, the thing drives Boromir nutso before they get even halfway, when it's nowhere near its place of greatest power. O_o And he's not even carrying it.

As I recall, Boromir and Smeagol are the only people we ever really see affected by the Ring without carrying it. And Boromir is already desperate, and I'm not sure Smeagol is portrayed as a particularly great guy to begin with. Does the Ring really have the feats to corrupt the rest of the Fellowship without them actually carrying it (or at least holding it)?

That's not to say that Aragorn could take the Ring from Frodo and then destroy it, but if Aragorn (or Gandalf or whomever) decided to just shove Frodo into the Cracks of Doom, I'm not sure the Ring could stop them. I don't think they would do that, but that's a different argument.

[BitVyper]

No, I mean: wouldn't Tom be able to toss the ring into mt doom? He seemed resistant to it.

As I recall, Gandalf basically tells us that the ring has no power over Tom, but also that part of why the ring has no power over Tom is that Tom wouldn't feel the slightest bit inclined to bother with it.

As I recall, Boromir and Smeagol are the only people we ever really see affected by the Ring without carrying it.

Faramir, IIRC, is noted to experience some influence in his incredibly brief encounter with it, and Bilbo certainly went for it (though he'd HAD it previously). I.... think it drew Shelob to it? I forget; I haven't read the book in about fifteen years. Galadriel pretty much had to contend with it when Frodo offered it to her. I think opportunity plays a bit of a role.

[Sharpandpointies]

No, I mean: wouldn't Tom be able to toss the ring into mt doom? He seemed resistant to it.

Tom really didn't understand the Ring, as BitVyper says, nor care about it. And you really wouldn't want to have Tom go wandering into Mordor, as Sauron would just go get the Ring from him. Might be a little work for old Gorthaur, but he'd manage.

That's fair.

Not saying you didn't make good points about the timeline. It does add to the 'things to consider'.

I don't think most of the Fellowship planned to go with Frodo. Gandalf and the other hobbits planned to, sure, but Aragorn and Boromir were planning to go to Gondor and it's not clear how far Legolas and Gimli intended to go. Aragorn only starts to think he needs to go with Frodo after the Balrog incident.

It was certainly a 'we'll make it up as we go along' kind of thing, with part of the group being of the 'we'll at least go part-way and see what happens...'

As I recall, Boromir and Smeagol are the only people we ever really see affected by the Ring without carrying it. And Boromir is already desperate, and I'm not sure Smeagol is portrayed as a particularly great guy to begin with. Does the Ring really have the feats to corrupt the rest of the Fellowship without them actually carrying it (or at least holding it)?

It has the feats to say that none of them are going to actually be able to take a hand-off of the Ring from Frodo and then just chuck it into the fire, which for me is all that matters here.

But as for feats for working on people without them holding it, you're right - we do have two feats, Sméagol and Boromir. The Ring, at a time when it's ridiculously far from its place of power, corrupts Boromir very quickly. He might have been desperate, but the Ring wasn't even close to as strong as it would become. The other members of the Fellowship would have to go through all kinds of desperate situations, closer and closer to the Cracks of Doom, and would be dealing with the Ring for far, far longer a time when its power was growing greater and greater.

Sméagol? Clearly not a good person to begin with, but at a time where Sauron has just returned from the East, still weak, and just starting to really search for the Ring again (so the Ring isn't exactly all powered up) it takes all of about six seconds for Sméagol to decide to murder Déagol. Was he super-hateful of Déagol to start with, or a person given to violence, an 'easy' target for the Ring? Maybe. But again, he goes from 'I want it' to 'I'll kill you' nigh-instantly at a time where the Ring is at a low ebb and nowhere near its place of power.

I'm of the opinion that right here, we have two fairly solid feats - it inspires Sméagol to murder nigh-instantly, and in well-under half of the journey drives Boromir into a homicidal rage. Both of which things were done far, far away from its place of greatest strength.

That's certainly enough to get me thinking that others in the group are going to be struggling at some point even if they don't ever touch the Ring.

That's not to say that Aragorn could take the Ring from Frodo and then destroy it, but if Aragorn (or Gandalf or whomever) decided to just shove Frodo into the Cracks of Doom, I'm not sure the Ring could stop them. I don't think they would do that, but that's a different argument.

Whether or not someone could shove the Ringbearer in (seems certainly possible, mind) is immaterial in this case, as nobody in the Fellowship would be the sort to do so.

.....

Okay, Movie-Aragorn, sure.

Galadriel pretty much had to contend with it when Frodo offered it to her. I think opportunity plays a bit of a role.

Agreed. Galadriel certainly had to deal with the issue of the Ring, though granted part of that was her own rather glaring flaw (ie, pride). It was most definitely a temptation - how much of that was the Ring, and how much of that were her own rather powerful desires to remain a queen in Middle Earth rather than head to the West to avoid fading is open to debate (because destroying the Ring would absolutely lead to her fading, due to the loss of the Three), but certainly some of it would have been the Ring itself.

[Thane of Fife]

But as for feats for working on people without them holding it, you're right - we do have two feats, Sméagol and Boromir. The Ring, at a time when it's ridiculously far from its place of power, corrupts Boromir very quickly. He might have been desperate, but the Ring wasn't even close to as strong as it would become. The other members of the Fellowship would have to go through all kinds of desperate situations, closer and closer to the Cracks of Doom, and would be dealing with the Ring for far, far longer a time when its power was growing greater and greater.

Sméagol? Clearly not a good person to begin with, but at a time where Sauron has just returned from the East, still weak, and just starting to really search for the Ring again (so the Ring isn't exactly all powered up) it takes all of about six seconds for Sméagol to decide to murder Déagol. Was he super-hateful of Déagol to start with, or a person given to violence, an 'easy' target for the Ring? Maybe. But again, he goes from 'I want it' to 'I'll kill you' nigh-instantly at a time where the Ring is at a low ebb and nowhere near its place of power.

I'm of the opinion that right here, we have two fairly solid feats - it inspires Sméagol to murder nigh-instantly, and in well-under half of the journey drives Boromir into a homicidal rage. Both of which things were done far, far away from its place of greatest strength.

That's certainly enough to get me thinking that others in the group are going to be struggling at some point even if they don't ever touch the Ring.

I guess I feel like, with Boromir, it's not such a great feat, because it had a lot to work with in Boromir. The Ring would have been tempting to Boromir even if it had no corrupting powers at all; even at the Council of Elrond, he felt that they should use it. And I'm not sure I would say he was driven to homicidal rage - he tried to jump Frodo (we don't know whether to kill him or just take the Ring) but that's about all we see before his mind clears.

As for proximity to Mt. Doom, I don't see that affecting anyone except the Ringbearer (Frodo and Isildur). I mean, Sam was there with Frodo (and Elrond and Cirdan were there with Isildur), and they were all still counseling to destroy the Ring even when at the Cracks of Doom (or at the foot of Orodruin in the case of Isildur and the elves). Sam had even previously held the Ring. It would have been different if they'd been holding the Ring, but I just don't see it convincing people to jump the Ringbearer without having more to work with.

Sméagol is a fair exception, but I'm hesitant to base the Ring's power so strongly on one person.

Whether or not someone could shove the Ringbearer in (seems certainly possible, mind) is immaterial in this case, as nobody in the Fellowship would be the sort to do so.

.....

Okay, Movie-Aragorn, sure.

Surely Gandalf must have considered the possibility that they'd get there and then Frodo wouldn't be able to throw the Ring in, right?

[Sharpandpointies]

I guess I feel like, with Boromir, it's not such a great feat, because it had a lot to work with in Boromir. The Ring would have been tempting to Boromir even if it had no corrupting powers at all; even at the Council of Elrond, he felt that they should use it. And I'm not sure I would say he was driven to homicidal rage - he tried to jump Frodo (we don't know whether to kill him or just take the Ring) but that's about all we see before his mind clears.

'He tried to jump Frodo' seems a bit like downplaying, given how it went down. I mean, maybe it's different in the movie (brain-bleach is starting to work, I don't remember), but the book indicates something a little more serious.

First he tries to manipulate Frodo. Then he suddenly attacks Frodo, and here's the description.

His fair and pleasant face was hideously changed; a raging fire was in his eyes.

Frodo then puts on the Ring, and how does Boromir react?

"Miserable trickster!" he shouted. "Let me get my hands on you!"

Emphasis mine. We have a guy with a face that has become 'hideously changed' with 'a raging fire in his eyes' screaming about 'let me get my hands on you'. If it were me in that situation, I'd be working under the impression he wanted to do me some harm.

Then...

"Curse you and all halflings to death and darkness!"

His feelings on the matter at this point seem pretty straightforward.

Frodo buggers off, Boromir bonks himself on the head, has time to pull himself together. Then Boromir realizes what happened. And says....

"A madness took me..."

I'm pretty cool myself with this being a homicidal fury, given all of the above, but mileage may vary. ^_^

As for proximity to Mt. Doom, I don't see that affecting anyone except the Ringbearer (Frodo and Isildur). I mean, Sam was there with Frodo (and Elrond and Cirdan were there with Isildur), and they were all still counseling to destroy the Ring even when at the Cracks of Doom (or at the foot of Orodruin in the case of Isildur and the elves). Sam had even previously held the Ring. It would have been different if they'd been holding the Ring, but I just don't see it convincing people to jump the Ringbearer without having more to work with.

Tolkien himself goes on in notes and letters about how proximity to Mt. Doom increases the Ring's power, and it's actually in the book with Frodo going on and on about how it's heavier and heavier the closer they get to Mt. Doom. As for it not affecting Sam so much, there's that thing about Hobbits being ridiculously resistant to that kind of thing. So maybe Merry and Pippin get a pass, but I don't see why we're just going to toss out the possibility of the Ring messing with everyone else in the Fellowship - if they somehow manage to be there, because again, the only reason Frodo and Sam made it that far was Hobbit sneakiness and Gollum - given that when it's far, far away from Mt. Doom it has feats for messing with people's heads.

There's even some evidence that the Ring was trying to get to Sam, and the only reason he resisted was the Hobbit thing, his care for Frodo, and stubbornness, combine. Witness his little argument with 'himself' in the chapter 'Mt Doom', and when it ends with him telling the 'answers that come in his own voice' to 'Stop arguing!' Tolkien immediately segues to 'At that moment Sam felt a tremor in the ground beneath him, and he heard or sensed a deep remote rumble as of thunder imprisoned under the earth.'

Maybe it's the Mountain, sure. Maybe it's the Mountain reacting to the Ring.

But that's interpretation, and not solidly held up.

Either way, we have two solid feats for the Ring handily messing with people outside of its place of greatest strength. So I'm not sure why there's zero space for possibility that it can mess with other people in the Fellowship when it's actually there, at Mt. Doom.

Not that it really matters, because...let's say the Ringbearer and his group show up at the mountain. Now, this takes a whole whack of gimmes for them, given the reason that Frodo and Sam made it this far was a combination of (as noted above) Hobbit Sneakiness™ and Gollum's assistance. I'm really having problems seeing them arriving with a group of eight people, including Gandalf and Gimli (one might argue that Aragorn is at least somewhat sneaky, and Legolas the same, but...).

So let's give them those gimmes. SOMEHOW they manage to make it to the Mountain. Let's say the Ring only affects the Ringbearer, nobody else is at all touched by it. They arrive. Frodo slaps the Ring on his finger (disappearing) and claims it for his own.

And...this is in fact a recipe for disaster.

1. Gollum probably isn't around, given the entire group is here and he never would have gotten close to them without eating an arrow from Legolas or something. Basically, he would never become their guide (unless we're giving that very, very unlikely gimme as well?). Even if he IS around, if he pops up now and tries to grab Frodo, he needs to get past a whole whack of super-warriors who would likely be more than happy to kick his ass;

2. Nobody can easily GET the Ring from Frodo, as he has vanished;

3. Assuming they actually get their hands on Frodo, I'm having problems seeing anyone in the group deciding to chuck Frodo and Ring into the fire - it's not their thing;

4. If they somehow drag the Ring off of Frodo's hand, they can't themselves throw it into the fire, and we're back to square one with the Nazgûl tapping everyone on the shoulder saying 'The boss wants to speak with you.'

This takes a whole whack of gimmes, and it still ends in them basically being screwed.

Surely Gandalf must have considered the possibility that they'd get there and then Frodo wouldn't be able to throw the Ring in, right?

Probably (I mean, Gandalf is the guy who watched Frodo be unable to toss the Ring into his own little hearth-fire, waaaay far away from its place of power), but what other hope did they have? They literally didn't have anything else - all of this is considered, discussed, and beaten into the ground in the Council of Elrond, where it's basically decided 'if we don't destroy the Ring, we're screwed no matter what.' It's basically a 'get the Ring to the Cracks of Doom, then try to figure out what to do' plan, because if they can't do that first thing, *shrugs* it's all pointless.

And Gandalf is the guy who is always going on about the fact that there are greater powers involved, and one has to have faith. Gandalf being the only one of the Five Wizards (depending on which Tolkien Timeline we're following) that actually stuck to his guns.

Edit: But heck, I'm open to any evidence of 'Gandalf-contigency-plans for when Frodo can't actually toss the Ring in'. Didn't actually see any of that, myself, in my own read-throughs; instead, saw Gandalf saying things like...okay, direct quote here:

'There never was much hope,' he answered. 'Just a fool's hope, as I have been told.'

Good discussion, this. Making me think a lot about the stuff happening under the surface in LotR. ^_^

[Thane of Fife]

'He tried to jump Frodo' seems a bit like downplaying, given how it went down. I mean, maybe it's different in the movie (brain-bleach is starting to work, I don't remember), but the book indicates something a little more serious.

...

I'm pretty cool myself with this being a homicidal fury, given all of the above, but mileage may vary. ^_^

When I said "he tries to jump Frodo," I meant that the physical action he takes is "he sprang over the stone and leaped at Frodo." He doesn't draw his sword or try to brain Frodo with a rock or anything like that. I was just trying to suggest that I think Boromir attacks Frodo with the intent of taking the Ring from him, not with the intent of killing him (though if killing Frodo was what it took, I agree that he probably would have been willing to do that). In my head, I was contrasting this with Gollum, who generally does seem to have more murderous intentions, but in retrospect, it is not a great contrast, given that at the end of the books, Gollum does in fact take the Ring and then not really bother with killing Frodo.

There's even some evidence that the Ring was trying to get to Sam, and the only reason he resisted was the Hobbit thing, his care for Frodo, and stubbornness, combine. Witness his little argument with 'himself' in the chapter 'Mt Doom', and when it ends with him telling the 'answers that come in his own voice' to 'Stop arguing!' Tolkien immediately segues to 'At that moment Sam felt a tremor in the ground beneath him, and he heard or sensed a deep remote rumble as of thunder imprisoned under the earth.'

Maybe it's the Mountain, sure. Maybe it's the Mountain reacting to the Ring.

But that's interpretation, and not solidly held up.

No, I think that's a good point.

Either way, we have two solid feats for the Ring handily messing with people outside of its place of greatest strength. So I'm not sure why there's zero space for possibility that it can mess with other people in the Fellowship when it's actually there, at Mt. Doom.

It is certainly not my intent to suggest that there is zero space for possibility. If Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn had gone with Frodo and Sam into Mordor, maybe they would have all gradually gone mad and tried to take the Ring. Certainly that seems to be Frodo's concern when he abandons the rest of the Fellowship. It may well be that that is what Tolkien imagines would have happened, similarly to how everyone starts squabbling over the treasure at the end of the Hobbit.

But I don't find the feats that the Ring exhibits in the book are enough to convince me that that is the most likely outcome.

Not that it really matters, because...let's say the Ringbearer and his group show up at the mountain. Now, this takes a whole whack of gimmes for them, given the reason that Frodo and Sam made it this far was a combination of (as noted above) Hobbit Sneakiness™ and Gollum's assistance. I'm really having problems seeing them arriving with a group of eight people, including Gandalf and Gimli (one might argue that Aragorn is at least somewhat sneaky, and Legolas the same, but...).

So let's give them those gimmes. SOMEHOW they manage to make it to the Mountain. Let's say the Ring only affects the Ringbearer, nobody else is at all touched by it. They arrive. Frodo slaps the Ring on his finger (disappearing) and claims it for his own.

And...this is in fact a recipe for disaster.

I agree that this scenario would turn out much less well than what happens in the books. Way back when I said it might be easier for Frodo, I really was just thinking it might be easier for he, Sam, and Gollum to sneak through Mordor, not that they would be bringing the whole Fellowship with them. If that's the way things pan out, it could certainly end badly.

4. If they somehow drag the Ring off of Frodo's hand, they can't themselves throw it into the fire, and we're back to square one with the Nazgûl tapping everyone on the shoulder saying 'The boss wants to speak with you.'

Ah yes, the SPI War of the Ring scenario.

Edit: But heck, I'm open to any evidence of 'Gandalf-contigency-plans for when Frodo can't actually toss the Ring in'. Didn't actually see any of that, myself, in my own read-throughs; instead, saw Gandalf saying things like...okay, direct quote here:

Sorry, I just meant that as a joke that perhaps Gandalf was planning to shove Frodo into the volcano from the start.

Good discussion, this. Making me think a lot about the stuff happening under the surface in LotR. ^_^

It's certainly a trilogy that never runs out of things to think about.

[Powerboy]

No, I mean: wouldn't Tom be able to toss the ring into mt doom? He seemed resistant to it.

Been a while but I believe Tom in his own land where he had invested most of his power was nigh unstoppable. But he was far less powerful outside of his land and hence, never left it.

Besides, on the way to destroy the ring, he'd get sidetracked, forget about the ring and just hide it somewhere (that he would likely forget where it was himself) and it would be found.

[Sharpandpointies]

When I said "he tries to jump Frodo," I meant that the physical action he takes is "he sprang over the stone and leaped at Frodo." He doesn't draw his sword or try to brain Frodo with a rock or anything like that. I was just trying to suggest that I think Boromir attacks Frodo with the intent of taking the Ring from him, not with the intent of killing him (though if killing Frodo was what it took, I agree that he probably would have been willing to do that). In my head, I was contrasting this with Gollum, who generally does seem to have more murderous intentions, but in retrospect, it is not a great contrast, given that at the end of the books, Gollum does in fact take the Ring and then not really bother with killing Frodo.

That makes perfect sense, and I should probably amend. It drives Boromir into a crazed, possessive rage where he would be willing to kill if need be to take the Ring from Frodo. Homicidal would be the wrong word, as killing Frodo was clearly not his primary purpose. Very good point.

No, I think that's a good point.

Cool, glad you also think so.

It is certainly not my intent to suggest that there is zero space for possibility. If Legolas, Gimli, and Aragorn had gone with Frodo and Sam into Mordor, maybe they would have all gradually gone mad and tried to take the Ring. Certainly that seems to be Frodo's concern when he abandons the rest of the Fellowship. It may well be that that is what Tolkien imagines would have happened, similarly to how everyone starts squabbling over the treasure at the end of the Hobbit.

But I don't find the feats that the Ring exhibits in the book are enough to convince me that that is the most likely outcome.

And that's perfectly fair. To be clear, I (now more clearly) get where you're coming from, and it makes sense to me. We're...not sure. A possibility? Sure. Would I, myself, argue that it would 100% happen? Nope. So valid point here, as well. ^_^

I agree that this scenario would turn out much less well than what happens in the books. Way back when I said it might be easier for Frodo, I really was just thinking it might be easier for he, Sam, and Gollum to sneak through Mordor, not that they would be bringing the whole Fellowship with them. If that's the way things pan out, it could certainly end badly.

Again, makes sense to me.

Ah yes, the SPI War of the Ring scenario.

Here, I'm lost, but it sounds like it has an amusing explanation. ^_^

Sorry, I just meant that as a joke that perhaps Gandalf was planning to shove Frodo into the volcano from the start.

I getcha. Certainly makes for an amusing image, Gandalf basically nudging Frodo in while looking innocent.

Weirdly enough, I have discussed this with people who put forward that idea as a serious likelihood.

It's certainly a trilogy that never runs out of things to think about.

Truth. My own interest is more the Silmarillion side of things, but LotR has a lot more going on than people see at first glance.

[StupidMoniker]

Ah yes, the SPI War of the Ring scenario.

I think we can all agree that the average person on South Padre Island should not be given access to the one ring.

[Thane of Fife]

Here, I'm lost, but it sounds like it has an amusing explanation. ^_^

In... it looks like 1977, SPI published the wargame The War of the Ring which covers the events of The Lord of the Rings, with one player as the Fellowship (and allies) and the other as Sauron (or there is a variant where Saruman gets split off from Sauron's side to be a third player). The central conceit is probably that the Dark Powers are stronger, but they're limited in how much stuff they can do each turn because, y'know, Sauron's a bit of a control freak and even he can only focus on so many things at once.

Anyway, the game has the distinctive feature that, because the Fellowship Player is never going to be able to pull the wool over the Sauron Player's eyes, the Ringbearer typically arrives at Mt. Doom to find a bunch of the Nazgul waiting for him (and whomever else has managed to make it there with him). Thus, the game pretty much always ends with this final battle.

So, naturally, any thought of a big fight between the Nazgul and the Fellowship on the slopes of Orodruin brings that to mind.

[Sharpandpointies]

Ah, I get you.

Yeah, that was about two years before I started getting into such things, so...was not familiar. Thanks for the explanation. ^_^

*reads wiki article*

As a result, the entire game can be decided by an enormous brawl atop Mount Doom.

Yep, sounds about right. Also hilarious. ^_^