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  1. #1
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    Default The LoTR Gate scenario

    I hinted at this in another thread. I've been a fan of the anime 'Gate' where a standard LoTR type universe opens a portal to our world and charges in with their level of warfare. Doesn't work well and there is a counter invasion by modern Japan. Also a novel called the Shield where modern Israel lands in 1941 WWII.

    So, for this: Physicists playing around, open a portal to the LoTR just before the Fellowships takes their stroll. Thru the gate and a base in an isolated area, recon drones, satellites, etc, map the world. Middle Earth - not the magic Eleven Disneyland across the seas as I don't want to play with the chance of some divine intervention.

    Well, here's an Earth full of unspoiled energy resources for us. Lots of oil, probably. It is decided to 'take over' Middle Earth in a nice way. The nasty dictator will be overthrown. The nice folks - humans, eleves, dwarves, hobbits will get delegations, education, etc. The nasty humans in the South, they get a lesson to behave.

    But how does it go down? Massive armies, air power strikes, special forces - etc. Or just trying to convince the good folks to buy some munitions and get training.

  2. #2
    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    Physicists from where? Because which country has the Gate will probably wildly change the outcome for the LotR-world.
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  3. #3
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    We better hope that whoever goes through the gate doesn't come across the Fellowship and take the ring from Frodo. If Sauron could sink his hooks into modern earth leadership, it would be bad.

  4. #4
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StupidMoniker View Post
    We better hope that whoever goes through the gate doesn't come across the Fellowship and take the ring from Frodo. If Sauron could sink his hooks into modern earth leadership, it would be bad.
    Sauron can, with ridiculous ease (even without the Ring), and if the last few years are any indication of anything it's that our governments are more vulnerable than Tolkien's to this sort of thing.

    Sure, Mordor gets bombed into nothing (Barad-Dr's foundations remain just fine, mind), the orkish armies are obliterated, etc (feels like a somewhat intentional curbstomp). However, Sauron ends up switching to his old MO of manipulation and control, eventually ending up ruling both worlds through various proxies.

    It's possible nobody even notices.

    Worse, I totally see the upper levels of our most powerful governments as deciding (stupidly and against Elrond's wishes) to go the 'Boromir route': once the Ring is discovered, some powerful people from our world snatch it with the idea of 'we can't let this kind of a valuable resource go to waste!' and things spiral down the toilet even faster with regards to Sauron's plan to conquer both worlds from the shadows.

    Basically, while we (obviously) overwhelmingly succeed in any military match-up, Sauron takes the win here.

    ...I would imagine that the Eldar, utterly disgusted, leave en masse well-before that happens.

    Side notes:

    It's rather dumb of us to be wandering in because 'lots of oil', but then I don't see any governments really moving on getting us off oil (okay, a few, and congratulations to them! But they're in the minority) so that's par for the course for humanity.

    The 'magical Elven Disneyland' is inaccessible to our armies and people anyway; it's not like we have any way to travel there.

    And finally, we create all kinds of time paradoxes by doing this, because...if Middle Earth does exist as Tolkien envisioned it, then hey, it's actually OUR world. In the waaaay distant past.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 08-08-2022 at 08:40 AM.
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  5. #5
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    We've played the game of Sauron versus the modern world on Rumbles before; it always, always ends poorly for the modern world.

    Our modern world is sadly, sadly vulnerable to the kind of manipulation and control that Sauron can (easily) pull off, even when hampered by the fact that this particular thread happens in the Third Age when he can't manage a sexy bod any more. Just means he has to work through proxies.

    [Sauron] Oh, you're after that oil stuff...ah, I see why. Yes, yes. Great plan. Progress, power your machines, etc. Let me show you how to make it even better. Heck, I'll just take over and run things even more efficiently.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 08-08-2022 at 08:39 AM.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

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    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik

    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?"
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  6. #6
    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    Worse, I totally see the upper levels of our most powerful governments as deciding (stupidly and against Elrond's wishes) to go the 'Boromir route': once the Ring is discovered, some powerful people from our world snatch it with the idea of 'we can't let this kind of a valuable resource go to waste!' and things spiral down the toilet even faster with regards to Sauron's plan to conquer both worlds from the shadows.
    I was thinking even more sensible governments might try the Indiana Jones approach and want to lock it away in a vault somewhere where no one knows about it, if they can't destroy it. Also, modern science might very well be able to destroy it. All Gandalf proved was regular fires couldn't bother it, but science has WAY hotter stuff than anything we saw him try, and his response to using dragon fire was more logistical than physics based, IIRC. And, by keeping it away from Mount Doom We'd avoid the multiplicative corruptive effect it had as it got closer to there.
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  7. #7
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    I was thinking even more sensible governments might try the Indiana Jones approach and want to lock it away in a vault somewhere where no one knows about it, if they can't destroy it. Also, modern science might very well be able to destroy it. All Gandalf proved was regular fires couldn't bother it, but science has WAY hotter stuff than anything we saw him try, and his response to using dragon fire was more logistical than physics based, IIRC. And, by keeping it away from Mount Doom We'd avoid the multiplicative corruptive effect it had as it got closer to there.
    1. Locking it away doesn't work. It always gets out, at some point or another, and just one person studying will fall victim. Plus, any of the governments we have who are powerful enough to be the people who go into LotR (ie, the people who say 'Our country is going in, not yours!') aren't what I would name 'sensible'.

    2. Unless we can pull off stuff that's actually more powerful than Sauron's sorcery, I can't see us destroying it - it's less about heat, and more about the fact that it's linked to where it was created and the power placed within it (Gandalf flat-out states that he doesn't feel Ancalagon the Black could destroy the Ring, much less Smaug or the lesser dragons). And anyone trying to destroy it...falls victim to 'I don't want to destroy that', to boot.

    I don't see our governments hiding it without trying to use it or study it, and I don't see them trying to destroy it...even if they could get past the whole 'if you try to destroy it, you are effectively exposing yourself to it' business.

    Mileage may vary, of course.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "What's a silmaril?
    Is it some kind of Pokemon?"

    - Nik

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik

    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?"
    - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  8. #8
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Hahaha, whooo, realized something and things just got worse.

    At the time of 'just before' the journey of the Ring starts, everyone (EVERYONE) thinks that Saruman is still a good guy. He is, in fact, the top Wizard and one of the top people on the White Council. However, by this point he is certainly working for Sauron (if plotting rebellion in secret, which Gandalf points out is Saruman effectively fooling himself).

    Assuming our world is playing at all nice, one of the groups the leaders of whatever-country-is-doing-this will want to meet with is the White Council.

    Effectively, that gives Sauron an in-road right off the bat, because Saruman is going to easily manipulate and control any of our people he wants to with his Voice. No contest. And Sauron don't even need to be obvious about the fact that this is starting - just a few small instructions, or a manipulation or two, or whatever. Get the ball rolling.

    Get those leaders in his pocket.

    Sauron has been shown to be perfectly happy playing a long game (like, generations of human lives long), and this gives him the opportunity to do just that.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "What's a silmaril?
    Is it some kind of Pokemon?"

    - Nik

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik

    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?"
    - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  9. #9
    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    The thing is though, we have another advantage. We have The Lord of the Rings. So, we already know that dealing with the ring or anyone who's name starts with "s" is a bad idea.
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  10. #10
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    The thing is though, we have another advantage. We have The Lord of the Rings. So, we already know that dealing with the ring or anyone who's name starts with "s" is a bad idea.
    If we're going to basically give Earth every single possible advantage, including the whole 'we have the books so we know exactly how to deal with everything', obviously this becomes a curbstomp (with drone-piloting the Ring into the fires of Mt. Doom being the fast and easy way to finish the scenario ^_^).

    An intentional curbstomp.

    I guess it's up to Captain Smith to define the terms - does Earth have access to the whole story of Lord of the Rings as well? Complete knowledge of the situation and thus knowledge of how to deal with every problem in it?
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "What's a silmaril?
    Is it some kind of Pokemon?"

    - Nik

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik

    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?"
    - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  11. #11
    E-Liter3K Scoped Headshot The MunchKING's Avatar
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    I remember that was the standard we used for Wheel of Time, and IIRC when this last came out for LotR. *Shrugs*
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  12. #12
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Don't recall either way for those.

    It's really up to the OP, but giving full knowledge of Lord of the Rings to the modern world in this situation is basically giving them an 'I win' button, and thus would be an intentional curbstomp.

    ...I mean, it's basically a long, drawn-out curbstomp for Sauron going the other way, but at least that clearly wouldn't be intentional. ^_^
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 08-08-2022 at 11:12 AM.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "What's a silmaril?
    Is it some kind of Pokemon?"

    - Nik

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik

    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?"
    - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

  13. #13
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    The thing is though, we have another advantage. We have The Lord of the Rings. So, we already know that dealing with the ring or anyone who's name starts with "s" is a bad idea.
    HA HA! Took me a minute to remember where I'd seen that. But now you've got me in "Bill and Ted" land. Let's just skip to the end of the story, see what happens, jump back and change it.
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  14. #14
    Rumbles Limbo Champion big_adventure's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharpandpointies View Post
    1. Locking it away doesn't work. It always gets out, at some point or another, and just one person studying will fall victim. Plus, any of the governments we have who are powerful enough to be the people who go into LotR (ie, the people who say 'Our country is going in, not yours!') aren't what I would name 'sensible'.

    2. Unless we can pull off stuff that's actually more powerful than Sauron's sorcery, I can't see us destroying it - it's less about heat, and more about the fact that it's linked to where it was created and the power placed within it (Gandalf flat-out states that he doesn't feel Ancalagon the Black could destroy the Ring, much less Smaug or the lesser dragons). And anyone trying to destroy it...falls victim to 'I don't want to destroy that', to boot.

    I don't see our governments hiding it without trying to use it or study it, and I don't see them trying to destroy it...even if they could get past the whole 'if you try to destroy it, you are effectively exposing yourself to it' business.

    Mileage may vary, of course.
    Well, I'd say a nuke or a railgun or a high powered laser or some thermite have a pretty high chance of obliterating the ring. That's ridiculously more power than anything the ring has ever survived and there is no reason whatsoever to assume that it would survive that just because Gimli hitting it with an axe failed so miserably. That's the kind of no-limits fallacy that we typically avoid.
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  15. #15
    The Weeping Mod Sharpandpointies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by big_adventure View Post
    Well, I'd say a nuke or a railgun or a high powered laser or some thermite have a pretty high chance of obliterating the ring. That's ridiculously more power than anything the ring has ever survived and there is no reason whatsoever to assume that it would survive that just because Gimli hitting it with an axe failed so miserably. That's the kind of no-limits fallacy that we typically avoid.
    I'll grant nuke, some kind of ultra-high-powered laser, and such. Maybe. Thermite? Thermite is 'ridiculously' more powerful than dragonfire that melts steel? Please don't low-ball 'because Gimli with axe' - number one, this isn't 'movies', number two Gandalf goes on at length about what could and couldn't destroy the Ring.

    "It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself."
    But let's say these things could work (again, I'll grant it's possible that a nuke, or railgun, or high-powered laser COULD work through Rumbles Rules - I'm not even going to entertain Thermite - though frankly there's argument that nope, they really couldn't, because again, Sauron's power is what holds the thing together and as such they'd need to be more powerful than Sauron on an absolute level. However, for the purpose of this discussion let's skip that argument and go straight to 'Nuke/Railgun/Superlaser could work').

    To set that up in our world is going to require a lot of stuff, a lot of the Ring getting moved back and forth, examined, argument, passing through various levels of government, etc. It's not some immediate military decision or the like. And if that's the case...nobody is going to be able to blow the thing up. It'll get its hooks into people this way, and that'll be that. Given what we see governments hemming and hawing over now with regards to existential threats and various other stuff, I will honestly find it highly amusing if someone puts forth the idea that 'No, THIS time the governments will move like the wind, and nobody will be in opposition!'. Especially because it's very possible that by this point they've bombed Mordor into oblivion and everyone is saying 'Well, big threat is over, what do we do about this Ring?'

    So while I admit there is an argument for these things being capable of blowing up the Ring (I don't subscribe to it, outside of possibly the nuke, but there IS an argument), for the purpose of this thread it's kind of a dead issue - in this scenario, those things really aren't likely to come to pass.
    Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 08-09-2022 at 06:16 AM.
    Why Are We Here?, by Pendaran

    "What's a silmaril?
    Is it some kind of Pokemon?"

    - Nik

    "...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move."
    - Nik

    "Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?"
    - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate

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