Let's talk Imperial leaders and personnel

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

I still don't get how so many Imperial leaders and personnel decided The Empire was a good governing body. I've never seen a satisfying explanation for the loyalty tbh. Now if they had said it was due to the dysfunction of the Republic i might be able to buy it, it would add some personal weight to it. But I don't recall them bringing that angle up anywhere. Tho keep in mind I'm not a real deep cut guy, and don't read every little piece of obscure lore that's written. But it appears everyone was already just secretly evil/facists. Or was both sides just terrible? What am I missing here?

[thwhtGuardian]

I still don't get how so many Imperial leaders and personnel decided The Empire was a good governing body. I've never seen a satisfying explanation for the loyalty tbh. Now if they had said it was due to the dysfunction of the Republic i might be able to buy it, it would add some personal weight to it. But I don't recall them bringing that angle up anywhere. Tho keep in mind I'm not a real deep cut guy, and don't read every little piece of obscure lore that's written. But it appears everyone was already just secretly evil/facists. Or was both sides just terrible? What am I missing here?

For the most part most of the Imperial Leaders didn't see that large of a difference from the change over from the Republic to the Empire as far as day to day governing went. Even with the military leaders the difference between serving in the Republican Navy to serving the Imperial Navy wasn't that big a change.

[godisawesome]

I still don't get how so many Imperial leaders and personnel decided The Empire was a good governing body. I've never seen a satisfying explanation for the loyalty tbh. Now if they had said it was due to the dysfunction of the Republic i might be able to buy it, it would add some personal weight to it. But I don't recall them bringing that angle up anywhere. Tho keep in mind I'm not a real deep cut guy, and don't read every little piece of obscure lore that's written. But it appears everyone was already just secretly evil/facists. Or was both sides just terrible? What am I missing here?

I think of it as going in roughly three phases:

- Republic officers during The Clone Wars caught up in the us-vs-them nature of the war with the (genuinely evil in military matters thanks to Dooku’s set-up and goals) Separatists, and believing the party line of Palpatine’s well-constructed propaganda at why the Empire “had” to be created. The Separatists also provide a handy “purge” of Republic officers who aren’t authoritarian enough to stay with Palpatine, since any reformers an issue enough to resist his program would try to join the Separatists.

(There’s also fewer officers overall at this point, since so much of the Clone Army supplies it’s own officers alongside the Jedi - Palpatine and Tarkin only have to corrupt a few officers in comparison.)

- Between the PT And OT’s events, Tarkin’s busy setting up an evil and manipulative bureaucracy that’s still acting with a pretense of civility and virtue (like how Palpatine still has a Senate right before unveiling the Death Star.) He’s promoting guys like Rampart who share his list for power and ruthlessness, but likewise have just enough social intelligence to play the propaganda role sufficiently to recruit and confuse well-meaning cadets to the Imperial Academy… by literally playing psychological torture games on them, but keeping it quiet. They also build up ISB as a secret police that enforcers imperial thought. They’re also still trying to paint any nascent Rebel groups as Separatist hold-outs and imitators.

The great book Lost Stars shows two kids being quietly indoctrinated by Imperial might at the Academy that doesn’t mind manipulating their cultural norms to reinforce their loyalty, while also making sure the propaganda is so absurdly negative about the Rebels that even the cynics who doubts it’s veracity think it’s minimally true enough to believe… and then the Imperial Academy starts secretly sabotaging their academic projects and relationships to make sure they dislike each other and don’t have any close relationships above the Empire itself.

- Finally, by the OT, Tarkinks apparatus is working well enough that you either fall in line out of fear of being killed, get recruited and rewarded for being evil, or have to risk an escape to join the Rebellion.

I’d add that, given how the timeline says the Empire proper fell completely writing a year of ROTJ even though the Empire still had massive advantages in man power and territory… that we can probably assume the trade off for Palpatine’s fascism and Tarkin’s bureaucracy was that they wound up recruiting a lot more stubborn and destructive idiots by ROTJ, while most of the candidates you actually want wound up joining the Rebellion the second Palpatine was dead. I even like to think that Vader’s Death Squadron in ESB and ROTJ is made up of the few competent officers he could find - and even then he had to put up with Ozzie.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

My headcanon says propaganda, at least in terms of the leadership that wasn't in the emperor's inner political circle. Everyone else was "just doing their job". Similar to the trope of "My Country Right Or Wrong". Or how in America, the government follows the administration no matter who it is. But that has a limit, but in Star Wars the government is fuckin VAST.

I also think one other easy explanation is that people fall in line to the status quo, particularly "Law & Order" types, Especially government establishment status quo. Joining the Rebels would probably be no different than American citizens joining the Weather Underground/Black Panther Party against the American government circa 1960's. But it does beg the question did the rank and file know (or didn’t know) of all of the darker shit The Empire was doing, or just pretend that they didn't see it?

I think the franchise could probably do a better job at representing more nuances within the Empire (same with the rebels, and separatists too for that matter). We rarely get to see the inner working of the machine. Everyone we see is already batshit insane, or full-blown facist. I know there's some gray area there, but we rarely see them being depicted. Hell, I'd even be ok if they show people who were like "I'm just doing my job". Cause you know they exist too most likely. That's why I have so much high hope for Andor on Disney+.

[thwhtGuardian]

My headcanon says propaganda, at least in terms of the leadership that wasn't in the emperor's inner political circle. Everyone else was "just doing their job". Similar to the trope of "My Country Right Or Wrong". Or how in America, the government follows the administration no matter who it is. But that has a limit, but in Star Wars the government is fuckin VAST.

I also think one other easy explanation is that people fall in line to the status quo, particularly "Law & Order" types, Especially government establishment status quo. Joining the Rebels would probably be no different than American citizens joining the Weather Underground/Black Panther Party against the American government circa 1960's. But it does beg the question did the rank and file know (or didn’t know) of all of the darker shit The Empire was doing, or just pretend that they didn't see it?

I think the franchise could probably do a better job at representing more nuances within the Empire (same with the rebels, and separatists too for that matter). We rarely get to see the inner working of the machine. Everyone we see is already batshit insane, or full-blown facist. I know there's some gray area there, but we rarely see them being depicted. Hell, I'd even be ok if they show people who were like "I'm just doing my job". Cause you know they exist too most likely. That's why I have so much high hope for Andor on Disney+.

We saw that a little in Jason Aaron's run on Star Wars, with the leader of the Storm Trooper squad tasked with hunting Luke Skywalker talking about how Imperial recruitment was the best thing that ever happened to him and how the Empire wiped out the gangsters that were enslaving his people.

[ChrisIII]

A lot of the Rebel Alliance is actually formed from Ex-Imperials. It's even become even a bit cliche in the Disney continuity (Finn, Rook, Kallus, Inferno Squad, etc)but it happened in the old one too.




For example:

In both continuities, General Dodonna (Commander of the base in Star Wars, also shows up in Rogue One a bit) was a former Star Destroyer captain during the Clone Wars and early years of the Empire.

General Madine was also head of an elite Stormtrooper unit.

Biggs, Hobbie, and Han of course had short terms in the Imperial Navy/Army.


Thing about Tarkin, in quite a few ways he was Palpatine's pupil as well (although off-screen), just in a different sense and Tarkin was sort of already authoritarian.

[Madam-Shogun-Assassin]

Another thing that helped the Rebel Alliance was Tarkin blowing up Alderaan. It caused a HUGE recruitment drive, I don't doubt some of those people were ex Imperial. Talkin was a arrogant idiot that overplayed his hand.

[godisawesome]

Another thing that helped the Rebel Alliance was Tarkin blowing up Alderaan. It caused a HUGE recruitment drive, I don't doubt some of those people were ex Imperial. Talkin was a arrogant idiot that overplayed his hand.

Lost Stars emphasizes that pretty heavily - while a third of their school clique ends up dead, another third goes to the Alliance while the only the last third remains a loyal to the Empire… and their clique was specifically noted as top of the class.

[Ascended]

My headcanon says propaganda, at least in terms of the leadership that wasn't in the emperor's inner political circle. Everyone else was "just doing their job".

Propaganda definitely played a large role in things. I mean, in less than two decades Palpatine was able to convince the galaxy that the Jedi were not only terrorists and betrayers, but never had real power and tricked everybody with smoke and mirrors. He convinced the galaxy that the Force didn't exist and reduced its followers to "cult" status. Given that the Jedi were around for thousands of years and well known, well documented, and well respected, that says quite a lot about the Empire's power of propaganda. Didn't Palpatine have a head of media propaganda who made sure the galaxy saw the Empire in the best light? I swear that was an actual office/job in....something.....that was canon, at least once upon a time?

I also think one other easy explanation is that people fall in line to the status quo, particularly "Law & Order" types. But it does beg the question did the rank and file know (or didn’t know) of all of the darker shit The Empire was doing, or just pretend that they didn't see it?

I don't think people give enough credit to this side of things. You gotta figure, the Republic was at war with the Separatists for what, at least a decade? And during that time they were forced to ignore a number of planets, forced to occupy others, crime lords ran rampant, especially in the Outer Rim... Then the Jedi, who've become soldiers and generals instead of diplomats and peacekeepers, "betray" the Republic (as far as anyone watching the now-state-sponsored-news is concerned). It's not surprising that a lot of people would accept a fascist government if that government is able to stabilize the economy, put people back to work, and bring peace to worlds that spent years wracked by conflict.

I think the shows have touched, very lightly, upon this. You've got the pilot in Mando who claims that destroying Alderaan is a small price to pay to get rid of terrorists, as well as the former Imperial played by Bill Burr (I forget the character's name), and he's made some quality points. You've got that mole person in Kenobi who's pro-Empire because he supports law and order.

I think the franchise could probably do a better job at representing more nuances within the Empire (same with the rebels, and separatists too for that matter). We rarely get to see the inner working of the machine. Everyone we see is already batshit insane, or full-blown facist. I know there's some gray area there, but we rarely see them being depicted. Hell, I'd even be ok if they show people who were like "I'm just doing my job".

Agreed, but I think we're very slowly getting to see that nuance. At least hints of it. I too hope Andor continues the trend. But I question how deep this exploration should go. Star Wars has always had a really fun dynamic where good and evil aren't relative, but the people who end up on one side or another are more complex and are often at the mercy of small decisions and circumstances, which end up dictating whether they're a "hero" or "villain." Han became a hero because he took a random taxi job. Boba Fett became a villain because he accepted a job from the government. A minor change in choices, and their positions could have easily been reversed. More nuance is good...but if the Empire becomes too sympathetic, then it might endanger the thematic foundations of the whole franchise. Or not, I dunno how it would affect things if the people within the Empire were treated as real, normal people and not (mostly) crazy space nazis. I mean, I get it. The guy who just answered phones for the trump White House probably wasn't a fascist monster despite working for an administration that was objectively corrupt, and adding that kind of character to Star Wars is, at least generally, a good thing. But does too much of that make us question the Rebellion and the things the heroes do? Do we start looking at Luke as a mass murderer who killed millions of average, working smucks on the Death Star rather than as a hero who destroyed one of the greatest threats and weapons the galaxy ever knew?

[godisawesome]

Propaganda definitely played a large role in things. I mean, in less than two decades Palpatine was able to convince the galaxy that the Jedi were not only terrorists and betrayers, but never had real power and tricked everybody with smoke and mirrors. He convinced the galaxy that the Force didn't exist and reduced its followers to "cult" status. Given that the Jedi were around for thousands of years and well known, well documented, and well respected, that says quite a lot about the Empire's power of propaganda. Didn't Palpatine have a head of media propaganda who made sure the galaxy saw the Empire in the best light? I swear that was an actual office/job in....something.....that was canon, at least once upon a time?



I don't think people give enough credit to this side of things. You gotta figure, the Republic was at war with the Separatists for what, at least a decade? And during that time they were forced to ignore a number of planets, forced to occupy others, crime lords ran rampant, especially in the Outer Rim... Then the Jedi, who've become soldiers and generals instead of diplomats and peacekeepers, "betray" the Republic (as far as anyone watching the now-state-sponsored-news is concerned). It's not surprising that a lot of people would accept a fascist government if that government is able to stabilize the economy, put people back to work, and bring peace to worlds that spent years wracked by conflict.

I think the shows have touched, very lightly, upon this. You've got the pilot in Mando who claims that destroying Alderaan is a small price to pay to get rid of terrorists, as well as the former Imperial played by Bill Burr (I forget the character's name), and he's made some quality points. You've got that mole person in Kenobi who's pro-Empire because he supports law and order.



Agreed, but I think we're very slowly getting to see that nuance. At least hints of it. I too hope Andor continues the trend. But I question how deep this exploration should go. Star Wars has always had a really fun dynamic where good and evil aren't relative, but the people who end up on one side or another are more complex and are often at the mercy of small decisions and circumstances, which end up dictating whether they're a "hero" or "villain." Han became a hero because he took a random taxi job. Boba Fett became a villain because he accepted a job from the government. A minor change in choices, and their positions could have easily been reversed. More nuance is good...but if the Empire becomes too sympathetic, then it might endanger the thematic foundations of the whole franchise. Or not, I dunno how it would affect things if the people within the Empire were treated as real, normal people and not (mostly) crazy space nazis. I mean, I get it. The guy who just answered phones for the trump White House probably wasn't a fascist monster despite working for an administration that was objectively corrupt, and adding that kind of character to Star Wars is, at least generally, a good thing. But does too much of that make us question the Rebellion and the things the heroes do? Do we start looking at Luke as a mass murderer who killed millions of average, working smucks on the Death Star rather than as a hero who destroyed one of the greatest threats and weapons the galaxy ever knew?

I think they *have* shown that nuance… but the nuance is still shown to degrade to pretty black and white *eventually*, with the Death Star being a sort of “point of no return” in-universe, with the general rule of thumb being the obvious shortfalls and two-faced nature of fascism becoming more and more apparent as the story approaches that moment. The result isn’t so much making every-day loyal imperials cartoon villains… but more disturbingly, making them various types of deluded accessories and accomplices by inaction, where they can switch sides and get rewarded, but where almost any Rebel attack that kills them is justified as long as it isn’t Saw Guerrera’s Partisans eventually targeting civilians.


Like… wait around long enough, and you’ll see the “law and order” of the Empire is totally fine with the upper echelons of the Hutts, Crimson Dawn, and other criminal organizations exploiting the lower orders, often obviously - the rank and file henchmen are still vulnerable to targeted Imperial enforcement, but on a lot of worlds, “the spice will flow” regardless and crime actually expands under Imperial rule. Economically speaking, some segments of the economy are probably better off, but almost always at the expense of enslaving whole species and always brutally exploiting the mid- and outer-rim of the Galaxy - and still with the ever-present risk of assassination, abuse of power, and economic instability *still* present on the Core Worlds.

It's a lot like the actual Nazi Germany or an even worse example of Putin’s Russia - the regime is so bad and the evidence so obvious that even the “decent” people who work for it can become totally legitimate targets to outside observers eyes. I mean, Raiders of the Lost Ark and The Last Crusade has some frankly practical and brave henchmen for the Nazis who don’t do anything awful themselves aside from help their bosses… and no one bats an eyelash at their horrible fates.

It’s part of the reason why I love that Lost Stars book - you have someone who starts with and tries to maintain an objectively altruistic and faithful moral code in Cienna Rhee, who remains sympathetic and at times becomes anti-heroic, but whom you know could be killed by the Rebels at any moment without it being the tragedy it would normally be.

Her occasional heroism is strictly in spite of the Empire and her usual attitude requires denial and “active apathy” towards things that tug at her conscience. When she returns to her home to find that everyone, including the formerly rich and well-off, are being exploited, and her own mother arbitrarily framed for a crime and punished to cover some higher-up’s butt, it kind of singularly disproves her efforts as having any merit. We still like her, and we want to see her pulled out of the Empire… but part of the story’s drama is that she could easily die as a loyal henchman, and the book has earned a complex type of pity but understanding that might be neccessary.

Still… I would say that Imperial atrocities being witnessed by a character in general should be the real test. Mayfeld’s personal recollection of Operation: Cinder clearly haunts him and compelled him to leave the Empire - when forced to relive that, all his bullshit comparing the Empire to the Republics is exposed as mere shallow projections and denial of the old regime. He could likely tolerate the Death Star because he wasn’t there to witness it and wans’ perosnally effected by it… but being forced to actually experience and carry out an atrocity broke him.

[babyblob]

My question is what was the screening process to serve on the Death Star? Even the most Law and order or the guy buying into the hype may have an issue with blowing up planets full of people that have nothing to do with the Rebels. So how were they sure that each person would do their job at the right time? And wasnt there a group of offciers that left before the DeathStar was destroyed? Didnt anything happened to them? Didnt they pretty much leave their post while under fire?

[godisawesome]

My question is what was the screening process to serve on the Death Star? Even the most Law and order or the guy buying into the hype may have an issue with blowing up planets full of people that have nothing to do with the Rebels. So how were they sure that each person would do their job at the right time? And wasnt there a group of offciers that left before the DeathStar was destroyed? Didnt anything happened to them? Didnt they pretty much leave their post while under fire?

I know that Lost Stars, in the current Disney canon, has the main characters and their clique of officers completely surprised by Alderaan’s destruction - I forget whether it was because they genuinely didn’t know it’s laser was designed to destroy planets, or if it simply hadn’t occurred to them that it might be used capriciously against a fully populate world.

[Marvel Wars]

I don't think people give enough credit to this side of things. You gotta figure, the Republic was at war with the Separatists for what, at least a decade?

The Clone Wars only lasted 3 years.

[Ascended]

The Clone Wars only lasted 3 years.

That's it? I know there was a long stretch of time between the invasion of Nabu and the "official" start of the Clone Wars, but the War was only three years?

Well, I suppose looking at Ashoka that makes sense. I feel like she was around what, 13-15 when she debuted and was around 16-18 by the end.....?

Remarkable how fast the Republic fell apart then. Granted, Palpatine had spent a long time laying the groundwork for it, but you'd think a government the size of the galaxy would take longer to implode.

[godisawesome]

That's it? I know there was a long stretch of time between the invasion of Nabu and the "official" start of the Clone Wars, but the War was only three years?

Well, I suppose looking at Ashoka that makes sense. I feel like she was around what, 13-15 when she debuted and was around 16-18 by the end.....?

Remarkable how fast the Republic fell apart then. Granted, Palpatine had spent a long time laying the groundwork for it, but you'd think a government the size of the galaxy would take longer to implode.

I think the Republic-to-Empire transition was more of a solidification than an implosion, really, at least if we’re talking in the short term and only about those two successive entities.

If we’re talking about the *entire* Galaxy, including the Separatist worlds before their attempt to secede, then we actually would be looking at several decades of scheming by Palpatine and his Sith Master with Naboo as its intial apex, and as part of a larger thousand year scheme by the Sith in general.

Really, the speed of the official Clone Wars highlights Palpatine swiftness in actually seizing power and using the Republic and the Jedi themselves to do so… and brings up how, if we were to have an in-universe breakdown of the military factions of the the Galaxy, the Republic military of the Clone Wars is likely the single most efficient and elite one in a pound-for-pound sense.

The Galactic Empire has far more resources and much larger fleets, but much poorer quality officers at every level thanks to Tarkin’s praise of despotism over actual efficiency, and the stormtroopers clearly aren’t as consistent or skilled as the clone troopers… and of course, there’s no officer corps of Jedi generals.

I like to think that the Empire’s at its best staffing and quality right after The Clone Wars… and then the Empire’s natural decay, stagnation, corruption and paranoia see good officers and soldiers retire in drives over 20 years, replaced by the vile, the naive, or the gullible, until the OT era, by which point the rebellion has a massively disproportionate advantage in the quality of their leadership in spite of their size.

Rampart in Bad Batch feels like a perfect example of the problem with having Tarkin oversee the officer infrastructure of the Empire - Rampart seems to be a thoroughly unexceptional combat admiral, but excel at the duplicity, backstabbing, and rule-breaking stuff Tarkin loves, which is why he gets promoted to Admiral. He’s a good henchman but wouldn’t cut it in the Grand Army of the Republic.