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  1. #1
    Boisterously Confused
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    Default Change My Mind: Alfred should be a domestic, not a Double-0

    Not everyone in a superhero's orbit need be a superhero. Army medic vet? I can buy that. MI-(insert number) Guy? Please.

  2. #2
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    You didn't necessarily have to be James Bond-level (Bond was a highly trained ex-naval-commander) to be an intelligence spy in occupied France in WWII. I wouldn't go as far as to say I love Alfred having a past as a spy, or necessarily accept it in my headcanon (I don't think I've made up my mind on that yet), but it's definitely not nearly so offensive to me, and this reveal goes way on back to 1981 in Batman comics history, so it's not some new-fangled idea.

    It's simply not true that in all eras, being an intelligence spy required superhero-like abilities like ex-naval-commander James Bond. That's not true at all, far from it. All sorts of mostly normal people could participate as spies in the old wars of the 20th century. Spycraft was about surreptitious observation and passing information, first and foremost, violence was not ideal and not everybody participated in that end of it.
    Last edited by JBatmanFan05; 08-10-2022 at 05:15 PM.
    Things I love: Batman, Superman, AEW, old films, Lovecraft

    Grant Morrison: “Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Honestly I'll pull it back even further and keep Alfred just a theater guy. Let Leslie handle the surgery. As far as I know none of Bruce's mentors are about acting and makeup so that will be Alfred's niche.

  4. #4
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    I never minded that he was an army medic. It just made sense and wasn't entirely over-the-top. I remember in TAS they mentioned he did some admin-stype stuff for MI6, which I was okay with, too. It's stuff like Beware the Batman and Batman Earth One where he's the sole person that trains Bruce that I think it just goes way too far.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  5. #5
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Does it really matter one way or another if he's still stuck being dead in the present day?

  6. #6
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Does it really matter one way or another if he's still stuck being dead in the present day?
    It matters, as it IS the modern day. Death is meaningless so it's more a question of when rather than if he will return.

    And Alfred, of all people, has precedent in returning from death. I genuinely would be interested in a modern day take on the Outsider saga.

    On the original question, it's the kind of mission creep we've seen over the last 30+ years. Alfred, at his age, likely would have been involved in WWII so it made sense he'd have enlisted at some point. That's fine and his being a field medic is another avenue to help Bruce while also subtly keeping with Bruce's no-kill thing.

    His being a super-spy is just a part of an accelerating trend of EVERYONE in a comic needing to be super-special. I'm not really a fan.
    Last edited by exile001; 08-11-2022 at 05:24 AM.
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

  7. #7
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    In my headcanon he is just simple butler that acts like a father figure to Bruce and various Robins.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Pohzee's Avatar
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    Yeah the more they try to make Alfred so crazy badass, the less interesting he becomes to me. The level of Alfred-wank we reached like 5 years ago was absurd.
    It's the Dynamic Duo! Batman and Robin!... and Red Robin and Red Hood and Nightwing and Batwoman and Batgirl and Orphan and Spoiler and Bluebird and Lark and Gotham Girl and Talon and Batwing and Huntress and Azreal and Flamebird and Batcow?

    Since when could just anybody do what we trained to do? It makes it all dumb instead of special. Like it doesn't matter anymore.
    -Dick Grayson (Batman Inc.)


  9. #9
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    His being a super-spy is just a part of an accelerating trend of EVERYONE in a comic needing to be super-special. I'm not really a fan.
    I definitely agree as far as being some clear James Bond-level superspy operator.

    Alfred having been an actor or medic or a simple resistance spy in WWII....those I might be ok with.
    Things I love: Batman, Superman, AEW, old films, Lovecraft

    Grant Morrison: “Adults...struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life. Adults foolishly demand to know how Superman can possibly fly, or how Batman can possibly run a multibillion-dollar business empire during the day and fight crime at night, when the answer is obvious even to the smallest child: because it's not real.”

  10. #10
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    . . . On the original question, it's the kind of mission creep we've seen over the last 30+ years. Alfred, at his age, likely would have been involved in WWII so it made sense he'd have enlisted at some point. That's fine and his being a field medic is another avenue to help Bruce while also subtly keeping with Bruce's no-kill thing.

    His being a super-spy is just a part of an accelerating trend of EVERYONE in a comic needing to be super-special. I'm not really a fan.
    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    I definitely agree as far as being some clear James Bond-level superspy operator.

    Alfred having been an actor or medic or a simple resistance spy in WWII....those I might be ok with.
    Yeah, the story of Alfred's involvement in espionage worked okay when it first came up in the early 1980s.

    However, that was about forty years ago. If Alfred was still involved in WWII in the past, he'd be in at least his late 90s. And I'm not really sure there's a good modern equivalent to WWII that today's writers could use for Alfred to still have the same background. Sure, there have been other wars / conflicts, but they weren't quite the same in terms of how they'd have impacted the daily lives of citizens of the U.K. as WWII did. For more modern conflicts, Alfred would have had to actively decide he wanted to be a soldier / spy as a "career choice".

  11. #11
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I don't think he should be a superspy.

    Working for the government or having some army background...I can live with that.

    Also obviously he dipped into the theater.

  12. #12
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    Back when they did the Mlle. Marie story in DETECTIVE COMICS 501 (April 1981) - 502 (May 1981), I sent in a letter about this. I remember getting a response from Dick Giordano, so maybe it was published in one of the letter columns--I don't remember. But my main point was I didn't think it good to anchor characters' origins to set time periods, because it will only have to be changed later.

    Even in the 1980s, having Alfred active during the Second World War meant he had to be in his sixties. I prefer Alfred to be a bit younger than that.

    Previously, he had been a music hall performer/actor in England. That makes better sense.

    It gets worse once they say that Alfred raised Bruce. This means that he had to do his long list of other activities prior to working for the Waynes and taking care of Bruce. And still retain a British accent, despite having lived in the U.S. for most of his life.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Alfred’s past as a government agent makes sense. At least it explains why an otherwise average butler has all random skills he has.

  14. #14
    Uncanny Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Back when they did the Mlle. Marie story in DETECTIVE COMICS 501 (April 1981) - 502 (May 1981), I sent in a letter about this. I remember getting a response from Dick Giordano, so maybe it was published in one of the letter columns--I don't remember. But my main point was I didn't think it good to anchor characters' origins to set time periods, because it will only have to be changed later.

    Even in the 1980s, having Alfred active during the Second World War meant he had to be in his sixties. I prefer Alfred to be a bit younger than that.

    Previously, he had been a music hall performer/actor in England. That makes better sense.

    It gets worse once they say that Alfred raised Bruce. This means that he had to do his long list of other activities prior to working for the Waynes and taking care of Bruce. And still retain a British accent, despite having lived in the U.S. for most of his life.
    By the way, when did the idea of Alfred "raising Bruce" first come into the picture?

    I know it seems to have been accepted for a while, but I don't remember when it started.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBatmanFan05 View Post
    You didn't necessarily have to be James Bond-level (Bond was a highly trained ex-naval-commander) to be an intelligence spy in occupied France in WWII. I wouldn't go as far as to say I love Alfred having a past as a spy, or necessarily accept it in my headcanon (I don't think I've made up my mind on that yet), but it's definitely not nearly so offensive to me, and this reveal goes way on back to 1981 in Batman comics history, so it's not some new-fangled idea.

    It's simply not true that in all eras, being an intelligence spy required superhero-like abilities like ex-naval-commander James Bond. That's not true at all, far from it. All sorts of mostly normal people could participate as spies in the old wars of the 20th century. Spycraft was about surreptitious observation and passing information, first and foremost, violence was not ideal and not everybody participated in that end of it.
    `
    Agreed.

    And frankly, it makes way more sense to me that the man who raised Batman would be from a military/intelligence background than a totally ordinary guy who dabbled in the theatre before becoming a butler.

    The James Bond allusion is actually the problem...I think Alfred in MI6 was less James Bond and more George Smiley.

    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    By the way, when did the idea of Alfred "raising Bruce" first come into the picture?

    I know it seems to have been accepted for a while, but I don't remember when it started.
    Batman Year One established him as having been the Wayne butler long before Bruce became Batman, going all the way back to Thomas Wayne's time. And shortly after that they took it to the logical conclusion by making Alfred his surrogate father.

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