Change My Mind: Alfred should be a domestic, not a Double-0

[Frontier]

Despite all the things I couldn't stand about Zack Snyder's DCEU, I did like the way he updated Bruce and Alfred's relationship. They seemed more like coworkers, which I appreciated and I would imagine what it would be like after so many years.

Snyder's Alfred felt inconsistent with what they wanted it to be, but that's probably because they didn't get a lot of time to show that much with it. I think there were 1-2 Alfred "dad" moments in BvS.

[phonogram12]

Snyder's Alfred felt inconsistent with what they wanted it to be, but that's probably because they didn't get a lot of time to show that much with it. I think there were 1-2 Alfred "dad" moments in BvS.

*shrugs*

I really didn't see the inconsistency, personally. It just made sense to me. As for the dad moments, I really didn't see any now that I look back on it. Strangely enough, I didn't mind it, which is weird considering that's my preferred relationship between the two. Maybe it's because I hardly see Jeremy Irons as the paternal type. lol

[Frontier]

*shrugs*

I really didn't see the inconsistency, personally. It just made sense to me. As for the dad moments, I really didn't see any now that I look back on it. Strangely enough, I didn't mind it, which is weird considering that's my preferred relationship between the two. Maybe it's because I hardly see Jeremy Irons as the paternal type. lol

Well, maybe not positively parental .

[John Venus]

Alfred was a theater guy who later enlisted to serve in the war. He wanted to return to the theater but at the request of his dying father, he became a butler for the Waynes. He initially planned to quit after he fulfilled his duties but the Wayne's getting murdered complicated things.

Some of these elements were established in 'The Untold Legend of Batman' and it's also showed up even in the DCAU tie in comic 'The Batman Adventures' as well as the 'Waiting in the Wings' story on one of the Batman Annuals. So that's my head canon.

WW2 being behind us gives us less of an immediate obvious reason for him to enlist but a quick google search does show that there are actors who later joined the military. Writers are just going to have to be imaginative and come up with their own reason for why Alfred joined MI6

[MajorHoy]

. . . Writers are just going to have to be imaginative and come up with their own reason for why Alfred joined MI6

But I don't trust some writers to handle things like that well!

[Daedalus]

As others have mentioned before, the reality of espionage is much closer to George Smiley than James Bond.

I think Alfred's a good fit for that.

[John Venus]

Yeah, Alfred:

-talented but struggling actor.

-decided to join the MI6 since he needed a second job.

-ends up working in MI6 longer than he intended.

-quits MI6 after being disillusioned and tries to pursue acting again.

-at the request of his dying father, he becomes butler for the Waynes.

-after the Wayne's are killed, Alfred decides to become Bruce's legal guardian and continues his duties as a butler.

[Jim Kelly]

Here's what bugs me: despite the intended goal to represent all people of all identities, I find modern comics try to push every character, no matter how they identify, into an alpha position. Growing up, as the littlest boy in my class, always being bullied, mocked and beaten up, I never was the alpha male. In comics, while the male super-heroes tended to be alphas (although some had beta secret identities), at least there were beta males as supporting characters and super-villains that seemed more like me. Now every character has been torqued up into these high functioning übermenschen. So much for representation.

[Daedalus]

Here's what bugs me: despite the intended goal to represent all people of all identities, I find modern comics try to push every character, no matter how they identify, into an alpha position. Growing up, as the littlest boy in my class, always being bullied, mocked and beaten up, I never was the alpha male. In comics, while the male super-heroes tended to be alphas (although some had beta secret identities), at least there were beta males as supporting characters and super-villains that seemed more like me. Now every character has been torqued up into these high functioning übermenschen. So much for representation.

Is this satire? I cannot tell. There is no such thing as an alpha or a beta male in humanity, because our species not organize itself along those lines anywhere. Maybe we did long ago - before agriculture, religion, property, government, codes of conduct, or any of our other uniquely human inventions -, but we certainly haven't for at least 200000 years. Even then, we're not certain, as not all primates organize themselves along those lines either.

Alfred was a loving, caring and devoted father to Bruce for most of his life, and that's his greatest contribution to the mythos. Everything else is secondary. We all have the capacity of being like Alfred: it requires no particular power or skill, only compassion.

[Jim Kelly]

I was using alpha and beta as a shorthand, so I wouldn't have to write a long post about it. I'm sure most people know what I mean. Probably not all the P.E. teachers that made my life a living hell when I was a kid, but most thinking people know what I'm talking about.

Alfred hasn't always been a father to Bruce. He's only always been a father in the modern telling of the story, which came long after my childhood and even long after my young adulthood.

[Daedalus]

I was using alpha and beta as a shorthand, so I wouldn't have to write a long post about it. I'm sure most people know what I mean. Probably not all the P.E. teachers that made my life a living hell when I was a kid, but most thinking people know what I'm talking about.

I know what you meant - some abstraction related to dominance. I responded by indicating that I think that metaphor is not useful: certainly not applicable in the particular case (Alfred), and not applicable as a lens for viewing society in general.

Alfred hasn't always been a father to Bruce. He's only always been a father in the modern telling of the story, which came long after my childhood and even long after my young adulthood.

Indeed, as we've covered in this very thread. However, what Alfred used to be before Crisis is immaterial. He's been Bruce's adoptive father now for almost 40 years, and that's what the character is today. It has become his defining characteristic.

For a similar (though less important and more villainous) case of evolving mythology, see Mr. Freeze and his Heart of Ice origin story. Today, that defines his character - his one-line summary, if you will.

[bat39]

Here's what bugs me: despite the intended goal to represent all people of all identities, I find modern comics try to push every character, no matter how they identify, into an alpha position. Growing up, as the littlest boy in my class, always being bullied, mocked and beaten up, I never was the alpha male. In comics, while the male super-heroes tended to be alphas (although some had beta secret identities), at least there were beta males as supporting characters and super-villains that seemed more like me. Now every character has been torqued up into these high functioning übermenschen. So much for representation.

Even considering the alpha/beta paradigm as an objective truth for a second - are you really surprised that the superhero genre of all things is loaded with alphas? I mean, the term ubermenschen literally means ''superman''. In fact, I daresay the superhero concept is a form of wish-fulfillment through which we can all imagine ourselves as the alphas being the best of humanity and protecting the world. I'd say that was a huge part of the initial appeal of the Clark Kent/Superman duality (''mild-mannered'' reporter strips of his timid attitude and staid business suit to become the world's greatest superhero) or Peter Parker/Spider-Man on the Marvel side (dorky high-school kid who always got picked on gains superpowers and becomes a pro-wrestler, TV star, and then superhero...while eventually gaining some of that confidence in his civilian life too!)

If we're talking about Batman and his supporting cast, obviously they'd all be alphas. Jim Gordon, one of the few honest cops in Gotham up against not just crime but police corruption as well, who single-handedly fixes the GCPD through sheer grit and determination and openly collaborates with a vigilante. Alfred Pennyworth, the man who raised his traumatized ward to become a vigilante and works tirelessly alongside him and his wards to fight everything from crime and corruption, to terrorism, to alien invasions! Dick Grayson, the circus kid turned billionaire's ward who became a vigilante to avenge his parents, then worked alongside pretty much the God of vigilantes for years before maturing into one of the world's greatest superheroes in his own right. This isn't even restricted to the men - Barbara Gordon is the daughter of a police commissioner, and a genius (at one point, in a previous continuity, even a successful politician) who works hard to turn herself into a successful vigilante, and when she lost the use of her legs, remade herself as an even more powerful and effective information broker.

Now I don't believe in the alpha/beta binary, but if I did, I'd say all these people are alphas all the way. They have to be to do what they do.

(Going back to Superman for a second...Lois Lane is very much an alpha female. I'd argue she's a bigger alpha female than most versions of Superman are alpha males, if we're being honest!)

[HsssH]

If we're talking about Batman and his supporting cast, obviously they'd all be alphas.

Then nobody is an alpha. When everyone is special then being special is not... special. It just looks like almost everyone in Gotham (or other comics city) has some skills that put him on some "best in the world at something" list. Batman's crusade is less impressive if there are dozens of characters doing same thing.

[bat39]

Then nobody is an alpha. When everyone is special then being special is not... special. It just looks like almost everyone in Gotham (or other comics city) has some skills that put him on some "best in the world at something" list. Batman's crusade is less impressive if there are dozens of characters doing same thing.

Its not ''everyone'' who's special...just the people around Batman who help him with his crusade. They have to be to do what they do, or to be of any real help to Batman.

[HsssH]

Somehow they managed to help Batman for decades before being turned into special people.