How have things changed since One More Day?

[Kevinroc]

As I said, these are all examples of Peter and Mary Jane in a relationship as boyfriend and girlfriend, not husband and wife.

Are you certain that they were married in Web of Shadows? I've not seen any evidence of that.

It's admittedly been a few years since I played Web of Shadows, but I don't recall the game saying what their status was in the game. Given the Betty and Veronica nature of letting the player choose between MJ and Black Cat (which is also tied to the whole symbiote plot of the game), I think it's safe to assume they aren't meant to be married in the game.

[WebLurker]

Reversing OMD isn't just about the marriage. It's also about returning Spider-Man to a version where he is competent and growing as a person.

I think you can make a strong argument for reversing it:

1. The post-OMD era, while it's liked by some, has not been as acclaimed and has not contributed to the Spider-Man Mythos as much as the pre-OMD era.

It remains to be seen what sticks long-term and/or becomes iconic, but I agree that Mr. Negative seems to have staying power, even if he didn't crack into the top tier of the rogues' gallery the way Venom is the only post-Lee/Ditko villain who seems to earned a place within the top ten (I'd actually argue he's top three, with only Green Goblin and Doc Ock rivaling him). Spider-Verse has also proven to have staying power, with Spider-Gwen being an extremely notable spinoff character and the Spider-Verse concept in general inspiring one of the most iconic films in the franchise to date (admittedly, the movie was a very loose adaptation, owing more to Brian Michael Bendis's Spider-Men and the Sam Raimi trilogy than anything else), but still.

To be fair, it seems like lots of new stuff in comics don't stick around long-term, so I don't see it as being unusual that only a couple of characters and a story concept have been added to the "core lore" of the franchise overall, esp. factoring in how the post-OMD era is still new, so who knows what will be remembered (I mean, will Superior Spider-Man be remembered as a classic "side story" or "just" a footnote of one of the really unconventional ideas that someone tried, if that makes any sense?).

This doesn't track.

One More Day wasn't about ensuring that Peter and Mary Jane are never in a romantic relationship again. It was about making it so that Spider-Man isn't married.

I think there's some semantics in the whys, which I do have thoughts on.

Spider-Man isn't married in any of the 8 live action Spider-Man films.

Well, seeing how he's a teen and/or just graduating in most of them, of course he wouldn't, so it's kind of an uneven comparison. In the Sam Raimi movies, Peter does want to marry MJ, with that being a subplot of the third movie. While it doesn't work out, it's presented as something we want to see happen and implied to be the trajectory outside the scope of the trilogy (the theatrical cut has Aunt May specifically handing back the engagement ring, predicting that it's not too late for the couple to be able to reconcile and put in the work to make it a reality, the takeaway from the very end is that Peter and MJ will make things work between them, and there were plans for the scrapped Spider-Man 4 to show them working through married life). On top of that, No Way Home very explicitly confirmed the Raimi Peter and MJ did work things out between them. It's not explained what the official relational status is (much less where in his personal timeline the Raimi Peter came from), but it does set in stone what we were supposed to understand about the trilogy ending. So, while the "M" word is never dropped, the Raimi movies do depict Peter and MJ becoming life partners, which may as well be a "same difference" thing r.e. being married or having a domestic partnership.

The Mark Webb movies were all about Peter and Gwen, but depicted them in late high school, so Peter marrying wouldn't be on the table. While No Way Home did establish that this Peter chose to stay single after Gwen died, there were plans to incorporate MJ into the series and it was under serious consideration that subsequent films would depict the Peter/MJ romance. That's a lot more like than not alike.

The MCU movies, once again, go the teenage route, so marriage isn't part of the equation. However, Peter's serious relationship is with a variant of MJ. It remains to be seen where this version goes, given that we don't know what the plans are for future movies (if any) and if the point is going to be that it's a relationship that ended tragically or if they're going to find each other again, so it's a stay posted.

So, basically, three of the movies support the idea (the most influential ones, too) and the other ones are either compatible with the idea or had something similar on the drawing board. Make of that what you will.

He isn't married in any of the 21st century television series, and won't be in the upcoming Freshman Year series.

Seeing how all those are teen stories, of course not. Course, as I recall, the Spectacular series was intended to continue beyond season 2 and I believe that the Powers That Be did say that the plan was for Peter and MJ to get together in the end. The 2017 cartoon has them meeting for the first time and sets up that they like each other. That leaves the Ultimate cartoon as the outlier (I gathered that some fans picked out moments that could be read as them starting to develop feelings for each other, but I didn't follow the show, so make of that what you will). So, in the context of series where the characters wouldn't be marrying within the scope of the show, one was planning to go that route, the other set up that we were supposed to see them becoming a couple, and the only one that never clearly depicted them as an item also didn't give Spider-Man an alternative love interest.

He isn't married married in any of the past 20 years worth of Spider-Man video games.

Weren't they in Edge of Time? ("My future is meaningless without her!") The PS2 game also made a big deal about them belonging together, for what it may or may not be worth. (Haven't had the pleasure to play any of the games, so I will concede if I've got details wrong.)

Into the Spider-Verse had a blond-haired Peter Parker who was married and died at the start of the movie, and a brown-haired Peter Parker who was past his prime and divorced. The protagonist was a teenage Spider-Man, Miles Morales.

Miles being the protagonist is irrelevant to the question. We see two variants of Peter, one that was happily married to MJ and in the case of the divorced Peter B., it's clearly shown though the movie that he deeply regrets that and wants to reconcile more than anything else, but feels that things are beyond repair (considering that MJ tried to contact him after the divorce and seems pleased to see him at the end when reaches out, odds are that the feelings are mutual). Heck, the whole reason he's willing to stay behind and flip the switch despite it being a death sentence is largely due to thinking that he lost his chance to fix things with MJ. We don't see the outcome (the point isn't whether Peter B. and MJ did fix their marriage or not, just that Peter was able to get past his doubts and insecurities to take the "leap of faith" to try), but still, the movie shows it as a constant that Peter and MJ either are a married couple or want to be. Seeing how it's depictions of the Peters are directly based on the Raimi ones, that's probably not surprising. (That also means that, of the Spider-Man movies series to date, half of them are pro-marriage and the other two are about his teen years, anyways).

You could argue that Peter and Mary Jane being together as boyfriend and girlfriend would be good for brand synergy.

But as a married couple? What would that be synergizing with?

Course, one could argue if the brand has cemented them as the "OPT," why not? It's not like Marvel has good odds at replacing MJ with someone else or anything. However, as noted, I would question whether materials depicting Peter as a teen should be considered "not supporting" the marriage, esp. since the case can be made that whoever is Peter's high school sweetheart in such an adaptation would be the most comparable to a committed adult relationship in context. Consider Ultimate Spider-Man; that comics series was about Spider-Man as a teen, but made it part of the central premise that Peter and MJ were going to spend the rest of their lives together. There were quite a few comparisons to them practically being a married couple (from some of MJ's friends teasing her to MJ herself admitting that Peter sharing his superhero secret with her made her feel like they'd made that kind of commitment). Heck, the series ends with them eloping, for all intents and purposes (okay, they don't say they're going to officially put a ring on it, but that's splitting hairs, at best). So, while USM doesn't technically depict them as being married, that's the yardstick we're supposed to compare their relationship to. Does it at least make sense why fans would see that series as being pro-marriage even if we don't see rings and all that.

I think that might be the crux here; some material might not show them being married, but some of us might look at it and say "close enough," for whatever reason, like leading us to understand that this relationship is the endgame within this world or something like that. For that matter, I guess I'd question what definitive advantage does having Peter and MJ being able to break up and date other people offer, if we "know" it can't really go anywhere, due to MJ can't be written out forever?

There may not be a right answer, but does all this at least make sense in terms of why some of us see things this way?

[Lee]

I can understand "They're boyfriend and girlfriend in a lot of other media, so they should be boyfriend and girlfriend in the comics for synergy". I don't understand "They're boyfriend and girlfriend in a lot of other media, so they should be husband and wife in the comics... for synergy". It doesn't make sense. It's closer to the Sam Raimi movies and PlayStation video games if they're boyfriend and girlfriend. That's better synergy.

Course, one could argue if the brand has cemented them as the "OPT," why not? It's not like Marvel has good odds at replacing MJ with someone else or anything. However, as noted, I would question whether materials depicting Peter as a teen should be considered "not supporting" the marriage, esp. since the case can be made that whoever is Peter's high school sweetheart in such an adaptation would be the most comparable to a committed adult relationship in context. Consider Ultimate Spider-Man; that comics series was about Spider-Man as a teen, but made it part of the central premise that Peter and MJ were going to spend the rest of their lives together. There were quite a few comparisons to them practically being a married couple (from some of MJ's friends teasing her to MJ herself admitting that Peter sharing his superhero secret with her made her feel like they'd made that kind of commitment). Heck, the series ends with them eloping, for all intents and purposes (okay, they don't say they're going to officially put a ring on it, but that's splitting hairs, at best). So, while USM doesn't technically depict them as being married, that's the yardstick we're supposed to compare their relationship to. Does it at least make sense why fans would see that series as being pro-marriage even if we don't see rings and all that.

I understand why some fans like the idea of them ending up together. I don't buy that they were anything like a married couple within the comic. They were 15 year old kids.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

It remains to be seen what sticks long-term and/or becomes iconic, but I agree that Mr. Negative seems to have staying power, even if he didn't crack into the top tier of the rogues' gallery the way Venom is the only post-Lee/Ditko villain who seems to earned a place within the top ten (I'd actually argue he's top three, with only Green Goblin and Doc Ock rivaling him). Spider-Verse has also proven to have staying power, with Spider-Gwen being an extremely notable spinoff character and the Spider-Verse concept in general inspiring one of the most iconic films in the franchise to date (admittedly, the movie was a very loose adaptation, owing more to Brian Michael Bendis's Spider-Men and the Sam Raimi trilogy than anything else), but still

Yeah, Spider-Verse was by far the biggest contribution to lore, but I left that out because it's not really a contribution to Peter's lore. Miles and the other Spider-Men have their own villains and supporting cast, making them a different and separate thing from an addition like Mr. Negative (a Peter villain).

Besides, Spider-Verse doesn't need OMD and a single Peter to exist. If anything, it would work better with the pre-OMD Spider-Man, since you need a competent and established Peter to contrast them with all the younger more inexperienced people that were inspired by him. I mean, it's telling that the versions of Spider-Man where Peter and Miles co-exist most naturally are ITSV and the Insomniac-verse (where Peter is closer to his pre-OMD characterization).

To be fair, it seems like lots of new stuff in comics don't stick around long-term, so I don't see it as being unusual that only a couple of characters and a story concept have been added to the "core lore" of the franchise overall, esp. factoring in how the post-OMD era is still new, so who knows what will be remembered (I mean, will Superior Spider-Man be remembered as a classic "side story" or "just" a footnote of one of the really unconventional ideas that someone tried, if that makes any sense?).

It's unusual for 616 Spider-Man. The last and only time there's been this much stagnation was in 1994-2000 when the Clone Saga started.

It's arguably an anomaly in the sense that you can ignore everything post-OMD and not miss out on much important happening. The same couldn't be said of something like the JMS era, even though that era only had 1 new villain that stuck (no different than post-OMD).

[TinkerSpider]

A discussion about a C2E2 panel got to the old arguments about whether Spider-Man and Mary Jane should be married.

But I'm interested in new arguments. Some people may think that One More Day was the right decision at the time, but that the comics industry has changed so that different decisions make sense.

And I'm curious about how you guys think recent-ish (the last 15 years) developments in comics might impact the direction Marvel wants to go into.

Some changes...
- Miles Morales was introduced as a newer younger Spider-Man to replace the ultimate Peter Parker. They then brought him over to the regular Marvel Universe, and made him the lead in an acclaimed animated film, while hinting at a likely appearance in the MCU.
- Interactions with alternate universes has become a big part of the Spider-Man comics with Spider-Men and Spider-Verse. It's extended to the films.
- Spider-Man joined the MCU and it was a massive hit with the most recent film the most successful.
- A series of popular movies featured Spider-Man as Iron Man's protege.
- We're a generation into the period when the expectation is that most new comic book stories will be collected in TPB form. Now anyone with a Marvel Unlimited subscription can read thousands of Spider-Man comics easily.
- Comics published for younger readers in the scholastic market have sales that stomp everything else.
- Pop culture has largely become niche-ified with more material for smaller, diverse audiences.
- The world shut down for a year. That's going to figure into the sliding timescale.

These may have implications on the best approach for Spider-Man. For example, it's possible that a single Peter Parker made sense when there wasn't an alternative like Miles Morales around to tell the stories of a young guy figuring things out. It could also be that things are changing so much in society that a sliding timescale no longer works.

Other things that have changed:

- Disney bought Marvel.
- Disney bought Twentieth Century Fox. This brings the number of major Hollywood studios down to five (MGM isn't a major, neither is Lionsgate), reducing competition in the marketplace but also leaving holes in film release calendar; Disney has ramping up more productions to feed the beast. Disney released 19 flms in cinemas in 2019; they are releasing 31 films, between streaming and cinemas, in 2022.
- Disney created a streaming service that requires lots of original content to feed it.
- Broadcast and cable television appear to be fading; Disney makes a lot of money off ads for its broadcast networks. The business that makes the most revenue for Disney are its carriage fees (the fees paid by cable systems to carry Disney-owned networks; losing carriage fees could put a big dent in Disney's coffers.
- Gen Z is the generation least interested in comic books and invested fan activity like cosplay. This may be a danger sign for the "new reader" comics want to chase.
- The entertainment/media industry is still figuring out the "new normal" due to the pandemic. Cinemas have been hit, comics book stores have been hit, printing housing have been hit and there's a paper shortage.
- Distribution methods have shifted with Marvel moving from Diamond, whose primary relationship was with the direct marketing & local comics books store, to Penguin Random House, whose primary relationship is with bookstores. DC has shifted to Lunar for the direct market.
- DC's parent Warner Bros. was bought by AT&T, which almost immediately, as soon as the DOJ case was settled, sold it to Discovery. This has had mixed results for DC film properties and there are rumors Discovery may not wish to keep the book publishing arm, just the rights to the IP.
- Viz is the largest publisher of graphic novels in the US, not Marvel or DC. Manga outsells traditional comic book heroes by a large margin. Manga is what kept local comic book stores afloat during the pandemic.

Overall, I'd say the themes are:
1) Disney needs LOTS of content. To feed the content beast, Disney does not stick to one definitive version of Peter Parker/Miles Morales or Spider-Man; Disney has authorized various versions in various animated series, Marvel What If, Into the Spider-Verse, the Insomniac games, the MCU and no doubt will authorize more. Marvel brought the two Sony Spider-Men to the MCU, showing that Peter Parker can be older, younger, happy in a relationship that works out, still mourning the death of his loved one, etc. and all simultaneously.

What drives Disney is telling a good story. They appear very amenable to various versions of Spider-Man - rookie in high school, eight years after being bitten, divorced thirties dad bod - as long the story is entertaining and connects with audiences.

2) The direct market is still alive for now (and not in small part due to manga), but the fabled "new reader" may not materialize for American superheroes in sustainable numbers as Gen Z is not as interested as Millennials and Gen X. This may drive Marvel and DC to either treat older readers as their primary audience, with stories that appeal to nostalgia, or may drive Marvel and DC to take a manga-inspired approach to storytelling in which a single story is told over many issues with a single creative vision and characters materially evolve instead of "the illusion of change."

[WebLurker]

I understand why some fans like the idea of them ending up together. I don't buy that they were anything like a married couple within the comic. They were 15 year old kids.

It's a recurring analogy in the series (in some cases voiced by the couple themselves when describing things), they end up running off to be together when they grow up. Do I need to provide quotes or something?

Yeah, Spider-Verse was by far the biggest contribution to lore, but I left that out because it's not really a contribution to Peter's lore. Miles and the other Spider-Men have their own villains and supporting cast, making them a different and separate thing from an addition like Mr. Negative (a Peter villain).

Guess I'd argue that Spider-Verse has had more impact on the brand as a whole, going from being solely about Peter with a couple of side stories to being more about the idea of Spider-Man and the different ways that can manifest, with Peter as the center of the web of storytelling, if that makes any sense. That does affect Peter's role if he's gone from being the only Spider-Man to the baseline of a franchise that can do anything with the idea.

Besides, Spider-Verse doesn't need OMD and a single Peter to exist. If anything, it would work better with the pre-OMD Spider-Man, since you need a competent and established Peter to contrast them with all the younger more inexperienced people that were inspired by him. I mean, it's telling that the versions of Spider-Man where Peter and Miles co-exist most naturally are ITSV and the Insomniac-verse (where Peter is closer to his pre-OMD characterization).

Conversely, it doesn't "need" pre-OMD and a married Peter to exist, either. Granted, the Spider-Verse approach has generated some decent stuff about Peter variants that avoided OMD, but, if you can do anything, there's room for everything. (Course, the multiverse of Spiders does mean that Marvel can regulate the idea of a married Spider-Man as strictly an AU thing; an inherently "non-canon" idea that only works outside of the "real" one. Course, at this point, I really don't care which stories count for whatever series so long as I like them in and of themselves. Heck, since the pre-OMD ASM comics also had to happen in the Spider-Girl and RYV universes, I've been reading my Epic Collections of those as being the non-616 version of Spidey since I started collecting them.)

It's unusual for 616 Spider-Man. The last and only time there's been this much stagnation was in 1994-2000 when the Clone Saga started.

It's arguably an anomaly in the sense that you can ignore everything post-OMD and not miss out on much important happening. The same couldn't be said of something like the JMS era, even though that era only had 1 new villain that stuck (no different than post-OMD).

Guess it goes to show that you can't make iconic stuff at will. Still, it does seem like, among the Big Two comics creators, that it's rare to create iconic stuff. Has then been an iconic addition to the X-Men franchise since X-23? How many years did Green Lantern go between creating John Stewart and Jessica Cruz? Outside of Miles and Spider-Gwen, how many new Spider-Man additions actually stuck around in a meaningful way?

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Guess I'd argue that Spider-Verse has had more impact on the brand as a whole, going from being solely about Peter with a couple of side stories to being more about the idea of Spider-Man and the different ways that can manifest, with Peter as the center of the web of storytelling, if that makes any sense. That does affect Peter's role if he's gone from being the only Spider-Man to the baseline of a franchise that can do anything with the idea.

Sure, but in the context of a discussion around OMD, I don't see how this is relevant. The discussion around OMD is solely and mainly on Peter's story and his corner of the Marvel-Verse/Spider-Verse.

Conversely, it doesn't "need" pre-OMD and a married Peter to exist, either. Granted, the Spider-Verse approach has generated some decent stuff about Peter variants that avoided OMD, but, if you can do anything, there's room for everything. (Course, the multiverse of Spiders does mean that Marvel can regulate the idea of a married Spider-Man as strictly an AU thing; an inherently "non-canon" idea that only works outside of the "real" one. Course, at this point, I really don't care which stories count for whatever series so long as I like them in and of themselves. Heck, since the pre-OMD ASM comics also had to happen in the Spider-Girl and RYV universes, I've been reading my Epic Collections of those as being the non-616 version of Spidey since I started collecting them.)

Like I said, if anything, Spider-Verse would work better with the pre-OMD Spider-Man, since you need a competent and established Peter to contrast them with all the younger more inexperienced people that were inspired by him. It's telling that the versions of Spider-Man where Peter and Miles co-exist most naturally are ITSV and the Insomniac-verse (where Peter is closer to his pre-OMD characterization) and not 616. When you write Peter the way he's been post-OMD while having many people inspired by him, you arguably create a disconnect with the reader.

Guess it goes to show that you can't make iconic stuff at will. Still, it does seem like, among the Big Two comics creators, that it's rare to create iconic stuff. Has then been an iconic addition to the X-Men franchise since X-23? How many years did Green Lantern go between creating John Stewart and Jessica Cruz? Outside of Miles and Spider-Gwen, how many new Spider-Man additions actually stuck around in a meaningful way?

Like I said, only 1 villain from JMS' run became iconic (Morlun), much like post-OMD Spider-Man had only 1 villain that became iconic (Mr. Negative). But new characters aren't the only thing that count as having a lasting impact. His revamp of Aunt May, Aunt May knowing Peter is Spider-Man, the Totem subplot, the relationship with Iron Man, Cap's "you move" speech, Peter's job as a teacher (foreshadowed in the Miles Morales game and recently mentioned by Feige)... all that had an impact long-term in comics and in other mediums.

That's just JMS. The second most influential 616 writer of the 21st century is still not a post-OMD writer, it's Jenkins who added to Green Goblin, Doc Ock, and Venom as characters. It's a problem for the current status quo that they haven't been as influential.

[Lee]

It's a recurring analogy in the series (in some cases voiced by the couple themselves when describing things), they end up running off to be together when they grow up. Do I need to provide quotes or something?

15 year old kids say dumb things like that because they're naive. Two 15 year olds dating who've been dating for a few months is not directly analogous to a marriage between two adults, and I don't think Bendis was trying to suggest that it was. If he was, then that would be deeply irresponsible.

[Matt Rat]

15 year old kids say dumb things like that because they're naive

You do know there are real life married couples who have been together since childhood right?

[Matt Rat]

the fan base is toxic as hell

I'd say the toxicity is more at root with Marvel editorial than the fans. They're the ones saying no heroes have happy endings, they're the ones writing mean-spirited stories that take jabs at fan favourite characters, something not just limited to Mary Jane either.

The fans aren't toxic, the fans are the customers, and the customer is always right.

Marvel have tried writing off MJ several times, and it's never stuck. She's too entrenched in the lore.

[Lee]

You do know there are real life married couples who have been together since childhood right?

In those rare cases, their relationship as married adults is not the same as their relationship when they were 15.

[Alan2099]

I'd say the toxicity is more at root with Marvel editorial than the fans. They're the ones saying no heroes have happy endings, they're the ones writing mean-spirited stories that take jabs at fan favourite characters, something not just limited to Mary Jane either.

The fans aren't toxic, the fans are the customers, and the customer is always right.

Marvel have tried writing off MJ several times, and it's never stuck. She's too entrenched in the lore.

Of course the person complaining about everything thinks everybody but him is toxic.

[TinkerSpider]

In those rare cases, their relationship as married adults is not the same as their relationship when they were 15.

Relationship? No. But no relationship is ever static, it doesn't matter how old you are when you met. People are human, people grow and change, and sometimes you grow with the person and sometimes you don't.

But depth of feeling, which is what is actually being argued? Yes. I have a family friend who has been married for over twenty years to their high school sweetheart and they still feel just as in love as they did then. They knew they were going to get married when they were fifteen and they did at twenty-two.

In fact, part of the reason why IMO 616 Peter and MJ are such a lasting couple is because they HAVE grown with each other on the page, from MJ staying with Peter after Gwen's death to MJ revealing she knew Peter's secret and them becoming close confidantes to everything they went through during the married years.

[Lee]

Saying that two 15 year olds are "practically married" is a weird take. I think it's a harmful sentiment that shouldn't be encouraged.

[Matt Rat]

Saying that two 15 year olds are "practically married" is a weird take. I think it's a harmful sentiment that shouldn't be encouraged.

You can't speak for those cases, rare or otherwise, on what is and isn't 'encourageble' to them.