should they just stop pitting mutants against other teams?

[Metal Sphere]

Folks have largely covered why the why this Mutants vs [Insert Team] thing keeps happening. Marvel has a real problem with this in general, and as someone said the mutants have far too many tools to utilize against any threat thrown at them. Those threats are often impersonal (awesome writeup by the way, this is a critical failing), so pathetic that they're quickly brushed aside by the mutants. The ridiculously long holding pattern Marvel has kept Orchis in makes it feel like they're keeping them ready for Hickman's wrap up to this era. They're a non-threat.

All the other various factions have fared even poorer, as noted earlier in the thread. Tune down the heroes, jack up the power levels of the opposition, and get some meaty personal conflicts with strong emotional cores going between the villains and heroes.

[Krakoa]

where are the real villains in the x-men world?

The fans

[Sutekh]

Folks have largely covered why the why this Mutants vs [Insert Team] thing keeps happening. Marvel has a real problem with this in general, and as someone said the mutants have far too many tools to utilize against any threat thrown at them. Those threats are often impersonal (awesome writeup by the way, this is a critical failing), so pathetic that they're quickly brushed aside by the mutants. The ridiculously long holding pattern Marvel has kept Orchis in makes it feel like they're keeping them ready for Hickman's wrap up to this era. They're a non-threat.

They have devolved into Team Rocket, hyping themselves up each appearance, and accomplishing exactly jack.

When they could have been Xanatos.

[Frobisher]

The problem with mass-produced commercial comics is that they have to keep producing content no matter what, and that means that every possible thing that could happen will eventually happen (including Blue on Blue conflicts), and then it will happen again a few years later with a "2" in the title as nostalgia bait. Imagine all the X-Men Legends issues they'll do in the Krakoa setting 20 years from now when the status quo is back to the Outback era.

[useridgoeshere]

I get why offices like to use the X-Men because they’re popular, interesting characters with a large and loyal fanbase. However, it’s always the same with Mutants as the punching bag who were just hanging out then they’re dragged into someone else’s nonsense. The avengers attacked the X-Men, the inhumans unleashed a death cloud, the f4 invaded and wrongly accused them of kidnapping franklin, now the eternals are launching a false flag war. Always the same.

[king of hybrids]

Over exaggerating much.

Your right. The cosmics would get a pass like the spiders

[Cyclone_Ablaze]

I get why offices like to use the X-Men because they’re popular, interesting characters with a large and loyal fanbase. However, it’s always the same with Mutants as the punching bag who were just hanging out then they’re dragged into someone else’s nonsense. The avengers attacked the X-Men, the inhumans unleashed a death cloud, the f4 invaded and wrongly accused them of kidnapping franklin, now the eternals are launching a false flag war. Always the same.

I can Agree to this. I'm tired of the WHOLE Marvel Universe going after the Mutants.

I Wonder who's Next? Guardians of the Galaxy? The Cosmic Entities? The Midknight Sons? or The Defenders? It's getting pretty annoying..

I will say though, I do enjoy the Mutants Kicking Butt every time they get challenged. :-)

[CoCoBandz]

Your right. The cosmics would get a pass like the spiders

That's more like it.

The spideys are cool.

[BobbysWorld]

There's an older DC comic where Nightwing once correctly figures out that he's in some kind of mentally manipulated dream simulation because the Batman he encounters in it is very vocal with his praise and saying how proud of him he is, and Nightwing's like.....mmmm wait, that doesn't sound right. Makes me laugh because now I'm picturing a new Exiles book where a reality-hopping team of mutants from the 616 Earth wind up in a universe where mutants seemingly have achieved completely peaceful coexistence with the rest of that Earth, and nobody, not humans or Inhumans or Eternals or machines, seem to harbor any ill will, resentments or fears about them.....and the mutants from 616 are immediately like "Mmmm, sounds fake. This is a trap."

[Grunty]

There's an older DC comic where Nightwing once correctly figures out that he's in some kind of mentally manipulated dream simulation because the Batman he encounters in it is very vocal with his praise and saying how proud of him he is, and Nightwing's like.....mmmm wait, that doesn't sound right. Makes me laugh because now I'm picturing a new Exiles book where a reality-hopping team of mutants from the 616 Earth wind up in a universe where mutants seemingly have achieved completely peaceful coexistence with the rest of that Earth, and nobody, not humans or Inhumans or Eternals or machines, seem to harbor any ill will, resentments or fears about them.....and the mutants from 616 are immediately like "Mmmm, sounds fake. This is a trap."

And then it turns into a comedy story where they constantly try to figure out what the catch is and are utterly confused because there is none. Everything is geniune, but in an understandable hard earned way and they can't figure out why it is so compared to their universe.

Finaly, even when they helped the world and finished their mission, they still believe it was all fake or there was something dark beneath it all.

[ARkadelphia]

I can Agree to this. I'm tired of the WHOLE Marvel Universe going after the Mutants.

I Wonder who's Next? Guardians of the Galaxy? The Cosmic Entities? The Midknight Sons? or The Defenders? It's getting pretty annoying..

I will say though, I do enjoy the Mutants Kicking Butt every time they get challenged. :-)

Ewing just did that

[BobbysWorld]

And then it turns into a comedy story where they constantly try to figure out what the catch is and are utterly confused because there is none. Everything is geniune, but in an understandable hard earned way and they can't figure out why it is so compared to their universe.

Finaly, even when they helped the world and finished their mission, they still believe it was all fake or there was something dark beneath it all.

Nah, the punchline is everything's resolved in some way that DOESN'T require invalidating the fears and expectations a marginalized group have as a direct result of their own lived experiences being oppressed or discriminated against. On account of how biases born of self-preservation and biases born of bigotry are NOT interchangeable and should not be treated as such by tone deaf narratives where the people historically trying to survive by punching UP are called out as being 'no different' from the people who initiated violence and aggression while punching DOWN and creating situations the targeted people had no choice but to react to, in ways shaped by their limited options due to being a historically disenfranchised people.

Y'know, where that history that's the entire basis for WHY mutants assume the worst about how they'll be viewed, is acknowledged in-story and treated with respect and dignity even when the mutant characters do find themselves in a situation that's genuinely better, thus allowing them the grace to shift their perceptions and assumptions over time just like it was years of discrimination and targeted attacks that shaped their initial negative expectations and assumptions. And they're not blamed or vilified for defaulting to assuming the worst (because experience with that being the way things normally go has at times made that caution and cynicism a crucial necessity, in the interests of self-preservation)......because the humans of this other reality, even if they're in no way responsible for the mutants' past experiences and have never done anything bad to them, are able to recognize that these mutants' histories are still formative for them and being understanding while said mutants adjust to this new paradigm shift is more important than making this all about themselves and how 'they don't deserve these mutants' distrust or suspicion.'

After all, I tend to assume that any human society that is ACTUALLY enlightened and aware enough to coexist peacefully with mutants, would have the compassion to understand that while it may not be fair to be viewed negatively based on what OTHER people did, its not fair that these mutants had to go through the experiences that created that negativity in the first place. And if they actually want peace and harmony with these mutants because they have nothing but good intentions towards them and are GENUINELY interested in their well-being and not just superficially making gestures or speeches about 'how much we care, no really, we totally do'....then as long as the mutants' wariness and distrust ONLY manifests as suspicion or wariness, and doesn't take the form of actual violence towards these peaceful humans as a kind of preemptive strike......surely they can put up with some negativity during the initial 'getting to know you' periods, since their obvious empathy would have them able to understand its born of fear and trauma.

Course, this all stems from the fact that this completely hypothetical story I pitched here is one I'm pitching as being ABOUT the mutant characters and their histories and how it informs new experiences even in a changed culture. And thus while it could be argued it does these hypothetical human characters a disservice, some imbalance is literally inevitable when talking about stories that are BORN of pre-existing imbalances and attempting to course correct. And thus, making the story MORE about how unfair this is to the poor AU humans who never did anything to deserve the *checks notes* mistrust they're treated with, and how this is the REAL travesty, as opposed to the mutant characters who probably did at least something to deserve the *checks notes* outright oppression their wariness is born of.....mmmm, that'd probably be a pretty big misfire that missed the entire point of a narrative initially aimed at addressing imbalanced dynamics, and instead twisted the narrative to just lean further into the already existing imbalance by continuing to uphold the comfort of the human characters as the higher priority even in this completely hypothetical alternate universe that supposedly has achieved full, peaceful coexistence. (But only so long as the humans of that universe get to remain perfectly comfortable and prioritized at all times and never have to make any adjustments to accommodate marginalized mutants being uplifted to an equivalent level of comfort and prioritization, of course).

Don't get me wrong, I'm well aware there'd be far more of an audience lining up to read the comedy you're describing, I'm just personally attached to this other take because of Reasons.

[BobbysWorld]

I'm just saying, the line about even when they helped the world and finished their mission, they still believe it was all fake or there was something dark beneath it all is kinda funny to me, because the thing so many posters overlook when talking about how this era has abandoned the dream of peaceful coexistence and is a betrayal of key X-Men tropes......is that unless you take it for granted that every single mutant who has ever done wrong by humans conveniently dies off a few hours before Peaceful Coexistence Achieved Day finally dawns.....peaceful coexistence with mutants INCLUDES both the less savory mutants AND many humans who have historically acted with bigotry towards mutants.

The part that makes this funny to me is that like......over and over, the 'peaceful coexistence' the Krakoan era has achieved even just between historically opposed MUTANTS....is constantly derided by critics of the era, both for how unrealistic it is, and how it does a disservice to all humans harmed by these mutants (meanwhile, I've yet to see any posters raise the issue of how actually addressing the things humans HAVE done to innocent mutants should play out....ahh, two-way streets....how rarely they're actually viewed as going both ways).

And what did we commonly hear tossed about for at least the entire first year of the Krakoan era? 'There's likely brainwashing or something dark beneath it all.'

I'm just saying......there's something worth examining in being dismissive about mutants assuming the worst of humans and refusing to believe that peaceful coexistence between them and people they've always viewed as enemies, has actually been achieved somewhere.

While at the same time........there's been no lack of posters assuming the worst of the entire Krakoan experiment and refusing to believe that peaceful coexistence between mutants who have historically viewed each other as enemies has actually been achieved.

WHILE AT THE EXACT SAME TIME......still touting how the big flaw with the Krakoan era is that it has mutants turning their backs on the dream of peaceful coexistence with humans, which is still totally achievable.....despite those very same people refusing to accept even mutants with shared self-interests and common goals could ever actually agree to coexist peacefully.

Its like......the math falls apart somewhere in here, I'm pretty sure.

Anyway, I remain entertained that so many people are critical of Krakoans on the basis their very society-as-it-exists somehow stands in the way of ever actually achieving peace between two hostile groups......when if you think about it, the Krakoan society-as-it-exists is not only proof that most Krakoans - the good AND the bad - CAN find a way to coexist peacefully with former enemies, even if there's still bad blood between them.......its also an argument that the X-Men, rather than turning their back on the dream, have literally taken a massive step towards making that dream actually ACHIEVABLE.....by first achieving a peaceful coexistence among mutants (almost a test case for how viable historic enemies living in harmony actually is as a concept), while simultaneously making humanity safer from mutant threats by PEACEFULLY giving most mutant threats reasons NOT to make aggressive actions towards humanity.

That's one of the things I really like about the Krakoan era, or at least its potential (I'll be first in line to acknowledge its not doing nearly enough with this particular angle or concept, IMO)......things like 'oh, mutants shouldn't self-segregate or isolate, even for their own protection, it undermines the foundational principles of the X-books and the dream of peaceful coexistence'.....those are very, VERY easy talking points to throw around when you're taking it for granted that any real progress on peaceful co-existence is a distant dream unlikely to ever actually be realized within the comics.

But when you breakdown the reality of what peaceful co-existence actually ENTAILS, and the steps needed to ACTUALLY approach it, if you're not just hand-waving the concept into existence without doing any actual work to build a foundation for that culture shift......

Reaching that reality, from ANY angle, requires navigating some very, very messy roads.

And I don't like Krakoa or the current status quo of mutantkind because I view it as an ideal paradise, an actual utopia that's perfectly realized as is and should exist statically for the rest of Marvel's publishing existence.....

I like it as something NEW, a shift in approach from a people tired of doing the same thing over and over to the same results, and wondering....what if we tried a different angle, one that we can imagine resulting in actual CHANGE to our day-to-day existence and quality of life, instead of martyring ourselves and committing to JUST the hardest, most solitary road forward, simply because that's what we've always done and its what we're used to..

Of course it has problems! But at least they're NEW problems, requiring NEW approaches and NEW solutions.

But the key thing for me is.....I've yet to see any proof that this current road mutants are on, X-Men included, is ACTUALLY any further away from the realization of an future where there's peaceful co-existence between humans and mutants......than the old, familiar road that always led from mass mutant gravesites to the mansion, and back again.

Again, like I said....considering the SHARP drop-off in mutant aggression at humanity's overall expense....AND Krakoa's proof-of-concept example of peaceful co-existence between former enemies who've at least committed to giving it a shot, working together side-by-side in pursuit of common shared interests, rather than wasting time, energy and resources working AGAINST each other in pursuit of solitary interests.....

I maintain that rather than being a definitive end to any possibility of peaceful human/mutant co-existence.....this is the first ACTUAL step the comics have ever made towards that endgoal being treated as a destination that could actually, viably be REACHED, rather than used as a nice soundbite that Marvel talks up but treats as a social mirage that makes for a pretty ideological picture but keeps wafting further and further into the distance every time a story veers too near it.

Now, getting from here to there? Still messy as ****, crossing that ground in between. But that doesn't mean the current version of messy-ground-to-cover is inherently better or worse than what came before.....but at least its a different kind of messy. And all its mess is hanging out right at the top of the stories instead of eternally hiding under the surface of stories, its presence felt but never actually acknowledged or addressed.

[BobbysWorld]

Anyway, obviously got a bit off-course with that particular conversation tangent, so to redirect back to the thread topic, with LULZ.....clearly the only path forward to giving united mutantdom a viable enemy that DOESN'T pit the franchise and its fans against other Marvel fans in a self-defeating tournament of attrition....

Is to have mutants take the vanguard position in a new Marvel vs DC universal crossover, and aim Marvel's merry mutants at DC characters while allowing fans of Marvel's other franchises to safely consolidate behind X-Fans and enjoy watching our fervor be pitted against a completely separate group for a change. Nary an 'Avengers are cops!' joke in sight because we're too busy yelling about whether or not Wayne Enterprises offers free health insurance for henchmen level thugs hospitalized with traumatic brain injuries by the Batfamily.

Imagine! Actual Marvel fandom solidarity!

[dragon1440]

the fact that Jean had to play fancy comm girl again just highlight that the A and E are pathetic power wise

any of the time manipulation mutants can just cancel this whole show:

- Magik or Tempus can just time travel back to warn everyone

- Tempo , Sway , fabian cortez, and Synch can just form a time freeze circuit around these "hex"

This is not even taking into account the Xorn brothers. It is just so cringe when you have to make Ora Serrata power of existence erasure not working just to move plot. Please stop. Bc you are just driving ppl away from comics into manga, by ignoring continuity your guys established. Sure you can make some macguffin hacks , but we dont buy it.

There's a difference between criticism and out right bad talking. This to me comes across as bad talking not critiscm. It's the tone of word choice that makes me feel that. Plus the title of the thread is very misleading or I would not have checked it. Two simple things. 1-Just because you don't enjoy it doesn't mean others don't. I personally am really liking it so far. And yes your more then welcome to critiscm but they way you go about it here comes across as complaining not critiscm. 2-If you don't like it go read something else. It's pretty simple really. Maybe you meant it as criticism but to me all the above makes it read more like. I don't like it so no one should like it.