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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Default Is Jason Todd just as problematic as the Punisher.

    Marvel, in recent years has started to change the Punisher, because certain, unsavory elements in society have started to take up his imagery as their calling card. But The Punisher is the only gun wielding vigilante in comics. Jason Todd in a lot of ways is DC’s Punisher. Is he due for some changes to?

  2. #2
    AEColyte Gaius's Avatar
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    Only when the same certain unsavory groups start appropriating iconography associated with Jason, than maybe.

  3. #3
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I mean, like it or not, they have portrayed Jason as being capable of fighting crime and people non-lethally even with guns, so while there are some similarities I don't think it's as glaring.

  4. #4
    Ultimate Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Marvel, in recent years has started to change the Punisher, because certain, unsavory elements in society have started to take up his imagery as their calling card. But The Punisher is the only gun wielding vigilante in comics. Jason Todd in a lot of ways is DC’s Punisher. Is he due for some changes to?
    Jason isn't Dc's Punisher. He doesn't even kill and currently doesn't use guns.

    It'd be difficult for the same groups to appropriate the Red Hood.

    Red Hood was a gun wielding Vigilante whose guns shoots rubber bullets. non lethal rounds aren't something these hate groups want to be associated with.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Marvel, in recent years has started to change the Punisher, because certain, unsavory elements in society have started to take up his imagery as their calling card. But The Punisher is the only gun wielding vigilante in comics. Jason Todd in a lot of ways is DC’s Punisher. Is he due for some changes to?
    I would say that DC's closest equivalent to the Punisher is Wild Dog not Red Hood.

    And has already been changed in sofar that he stopped using guns about a year ago in the main continuity comics. He has also even before only used lethal force pretty rarely, since flashpoint.

    I also don't think that DC will ever really have the same problem with Red Hood, that Marvel has with Punisher, simply because he doesn't have something like Punisher's Skull Symbol.

  6. #6
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    I think Red Hood generally avoids Punisher’s ethos and methods enough to keep him from being a Punisher clone, and it’s Punisher’s ethos that makes him problematic compared to other, more run-of-the-mill action anti-heroes, while Jason’s moral ambiguity also still acknowledges the moral ambiguity of others, unlike Punisher’s ruthlessly black and white POV.

    Punisher has decided “Murderous Violence is the only answer, and should be prosecuted actively against all scum” - he seeks out and hunts down people to kill, and refuses to compromise or restrain himself. Jason’s post-Flashpoint turn to being an anti-heroic protagonist repeatedly shows him willing to restrain himself, make peace with more reasonable foes, and primarily react to enemies rather than seek them out with ruthless, unrelenting campaigns. Jason’s Pre-Flashpoint portrayal had more problematic elements, like him trying to wage a social media campaign of terror against his enemies with murder, but he was immediately portrayed as in the wrong and even counterprodcutive, which something people are often loathe to show with the Punisher.

    I would argue he still has the problematic aspects that regular action anti-heroes have rather than Punisher’s specific problematic issues… and I’d argue that Scott Lobdell was far too quick to try and make Jason friendly with the family again, so we’re missing some great dramatic and philosophical conflict to set that up because Lobdell just wanted a throwback story for Jason, but that’s another matter.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  7. #7
    Fantastic Member Felipe Silveira's Avatar
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    No, and Marvel's problem with the Punisher is that he has no role in the universe, he's there, killing people violently.

  8. #8
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I would say that DC's closest equivalent to the Punisher is Wild Dog not Red Hood.

    And has already been changed in sofar that he stopped using guns about a year ago in the main continuity comics. He has also even before only used lethal force pretty rarely, since flashpoint.

    I also don't think that DC will ever really have the same problem with Red Hood, that Marvel has with Punisher, simply because he doesn't have something like Punisher's Skull Symbol.
    Jason's Red Hood is Kaine Parker's Scarlet Spider.
    This coming from a Spidey fan.

    Heck, Jason's approach of crime is nowadays a lot like Moon Knight's approach. Marc is also known for being a vigilante who kills and has serious issues and conflicts with other characters in the 616. He has more in coming with Marc than with Frank, I dare say.
    This coming from a Moon Knight fan, too.
    Last edited by Zaresh; 08-14-2022 at 02:51 PM.
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  9. #9
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Marvel, in recent years has started to change the Punisher, because certain, unsavory elements in society have started to take up his imagery as their calling card.
    These people are using the Punisher imagery with absolutely no concept of what Punisher really is. They see a cool skull logo and know he kills criminals.

    They're as ignorant of the thing they're stealing from as their politics are ignorant of how society operates.

    They're not comic fans so it's pretty certain they have no idea Jason exists. Even so, they don't need him as their shallow understanding of Punisher covers the point they think they're making.
    Theorising that it could travel within its own timeline, DC stepped into the Crisis accelerator and vanished. DC awoke to find itself trapped in the past, facing mirror images that were not its own, and driven by editorial to change history *for the better* *to be more cohesive* *Silver Age nostalgia* *for the sake of it*. And so DC finds itself leaping from Crisis to Crisis, striving to put right what once went wrong, and hoping each time that the next leap will be to a perfect DC Universe…

  10. #10
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    The reason why people in reality emulate or at least empathize with Punisher is because the common man is affected by the criminal element in some way and they believe Frank's methods are a solution. Frank Castle's stories are also more closer to reality than the Batman mythos especially in America where it's easier for citizens to get as much artillery as Frank can.

    I don't think anyone in real life wants to plan to dress up in a Carnival costume and push women abusers off balconies (based Jason).
    "Cable was right!"

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member K7P5V's Avatar
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    Sad to hear Jason's insignia can't quite cut it among the unsavory elements of society, but I still think it's cool


  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member sifighter's Avatar
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    Not really, because the characters are very different. Even now Marvel is playing it up that Frank Castle was always meant to be the Punisher because as a child he did violent and aggressive acts against criminals. Plus being someone who acts out violently against criminals has always been Frank’s baseline and reason he was created.

    Jason on the other hand is more a character who was created as something else, a new Robin. And through the unfortunate situations of life, died and came back more aggressive until he started reigning it in.

    For me the Punisher will always kill criminals because it’s what he does, whereas there have been plenty of stories I’ve read where Jason doesn’t do that or reframes from doing it or more recently that when he does kill it’s comes with negative consequences.
    "It's fun and it's cool, so that's all that matters. It's what comics are for, Duh."
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    The reason why people in reality emulate or at least empathize with Punisher is because the common man is affected by the criminal element in some way and they believe Frank's methods are a solution. Frank Castle's stories are also more closer to reality than the Batman mythos especially in America where it's easier for citizens to get as much artillery as Frank can.

    I don't think anyone in real life wants to plan to dress up in a Carnival costume and push women abusers off balconies (based Jason).
    True.

    The Punisher might actually be the most realistic ''superhero'' character in that there literally are hundreds, if not thousands, of people in America at any given point who could be the Punisher. People with some amount of training (if not an actual military background) with access to serious communication and a belief that the justice system has failed and that criminals need to be shot dead. The odds of someone meeting all those criteria is far higher than the odds of someone being the protege of a vigilante in a bat-costume, dying, coming back to life, and then becoming a more violent, occasionally lethal, version of said vigilante while wearing a bright red helmet.

  14. #14
    Mighty Member Dipter's Avatar
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    Yes, and they should kill him off. The sooner the better.

  15. #15
    Astonishing Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    The Punisher isn't problematic.

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