Wrong turns made in storylines for DC Comics

[Nomads1]

Do people have beef with Zero Hour?

I can only speak for myself, of course, but I don't. Was it perfect? Far from it. It was an event that followed the same basic points of COIE in an attempt of course correcting many of the continuity problems that COIE caused, however, it ended up causing its own problems, ignored a couple of problems that they couldn't get out of, and not all of its course corrections stuck (very few did, actually). As a story, however, I find it enjoyable enough (especially since I didn't have much of a problem with Hal's turning to the dark side, and his motivation did make sense for that mindset of the character).

Peace

[Stanlos]

Do people have beef with Zero Hour?

My beef with it is that WW did very little other than float, hold Metron, and kick someone twice.

[Agent Z]

My beef with it is that WW did very little other than float, hold Metron, and kick someone twice.

And yet, it's better than how most of these events use her.

[ultradav]

Do people have beef with Zero Hour?

The only good ideas to come out of ZH IMO were the ten year sliding timeline and Jack Knight Starman. The zero issues were also a great idea and some of the crossovers were well done.

But as for the main event: it was poorly thought out all around. It didn't really "fix" Hawkman as it intended. It almost irreparably damaged the JSA and gave them the worst possible send off for the company's first super team. Just garbage how they were treated in that event, and also indicative of DC's poor planning when they had just been brought back a couple years prior. They should have just stayed in limbo fighting Ragnarok, at least that send off story was done with respect. Three characters are slaughtered in the blink of an eye. It even ends with Jay Garrick, arguably the most respected of them, just giving up and ripping off his emblem. Thank goodness other writers ignored some of this and Jay and Alan stuck around until finally the JSA was brought back with respect. Then it also irreparably damaged the Legion and it hasn't recovered since. Rebooting the entire timeline was such a waste, though it did lead to a good ten year run of the reboot, it was a drastic step that wasn't necessary. Like the JSA, those characters got a really hastily done finale that didn't respect the characters, although they at least had that finale in their own book.

Not to mention it further compounded the characterization issues with Hal as Parallax and Hawk as Monarch / Extant. On top of all this it's just poorly written by Jurgens. Outside of Superman and Booster Gold I've never enjoyed his work. Even in Superman he was one of the weaker writers of the four titles but gained fame because he happened to write the "death" issue. If it was well written some of the above could be forgiven, but it was bad bad writing. So yes I guess you could say I have beef lol

[ultradav]

Can't think of anything else but the Titans Franchise going in the crapper in the 90's.

Everything else doesn't really bother me.

They fell victim to "shock of the month" writing, probably due to a change in editorial at the time. It became about trying to top itself and introduce change after change after shocking change. It got a bit old.

[ultradav]

You can say that, but I don't see why someone else would have that role when it is already being occupied by a popular character. I would argue that Batman, Superman, Aquaman, and Wonder Woman have never been replaced in earnest. Jay was replaced because he was out of publication for a while. The audience had completely shifted by that point and most of it probably didn't know about him or remember him, so someone decided to put new spin on it for then current audiences. I would say his situation and Dick's are not apples to apples. Dick has consistently remained one of DC's most popular and visible characters since he arrived.

You'd be surprised - if you look at some of the old letter columns from the early days of Barry there are people saying they'll never accept the new guy and wanting Jay back. Ultimately they got their wish in a way.

[ultradav]

I know most won't agree with this but Raven should have died at the end of the Trigon story in the first arc of the Baxter series New Teen Titans. Every writer since has struggled to find anything interesting to do with her character besides rehashing the "my father is the devil and I might go evil myself" storyline.

I personally quite liked "white" Raven, it seemed like her character was finally allowed to move forward beyond Trigon and experience emotions for the first time. That could have been interesting but it didn't last very long until they brought Trigon back yet again.

[Aahz]

Making Barbara Gordon Batgirl again.

1: Cassie and Stephanie were fine Batgirls.

2: I understand the way Barbara was crippled was problematic and this was seen as correcting that, but it was corrected decades earlier with Oracle. IMO Oracle is the superior character and a more important character to the larger DCU.

I think that had more to do with Barbara still being the best know Batgirl out side of Comics, and likely being the one that sells the most merch...

[Rincewind]

Do people have beef with Zero Hour?

1. It swapped villains halfway through
2. The Justice Society was wiped out because editor Mike Carlin didn't like the team
3. It didn't actually resolve any of the convoluted history like Hawkman

Some good titles came out of it, but so did some bad titles.

[caj]

The only good ideas to come out of ZH IMO were the ten year sliding timeline and Jack Knight Starman. The zero issues were also a great idea and some of the crossovers were well done.

But as for the main event: it was poorly thought out all around. It didn't really "fix" Hawkman as it intended. It almost irreparably damaged the JSA and gave them the worst possible send off for the company's first super team. Just garbage how they were treated in that event, and also indicative of DC's poor planning when they had just been brought back a couple years prior. They should have just stayed in limbo fighting Ragnarok, at least that send off story was done with respect. Three characters are slaughtered in the blink of an eye. It even ends with Jay Garrick, arguably the most respected of them, just giving up and ripping off his emblem. Thank goodness other writers ignored some of this and Jay and Alan stuck around until finally the JSA was brought back with respect. Then it also irreparably damaged the Legion and it hasn't recovered since. Rebooting the entire timeline was such a waste, though it did lead to a good ten year run of the reboot, it was a drastic step that wasn't necessary. Like the JSA, those characters got a really hastily done finale that didn't respect the characters, although they at least had that finale in their own book.

Not to mention it further compounded the characterization issues with Hal as Parallax and Hawk as Monarch / Extant. On top of all this it's just poorly written by Jurgens. Outside of Superman and Booster Gold I've never enjoyed his work. Even in Superman he was one of the weaker writers of the four titles but gained fame because he happened to write the "death" issue. If it was well written some of the above could be forgiven, but it was bad bad writing. So yes I guess you could say I have beef lol

Agree. Great post - you summed it up brilliantly IMO.

[Kaijudo]

Do people have beef with Zero Hour?

My only real issue with Zero Hour is that it ruined Hawk and Dove, which was (and remains) one of the best books DC was doing at the time. It flies under the radar so much as far as "best of the 90s" lists go, but it was truly wonder and still holds up today. That said, I also love Captain Atom so even if they'd stuck with their original plan it would've been a no-win for me.

Yeah, some members of the JSA were written off, which sucked, but those characters have benefited from (mostly) well-written characters taking up their mantles in one form or another. The Hawkman mythos was already screwed up so what's one more nail in that coffin? And I dug the new series that came out of it...Starman is an all-time favorite, I have a soft spot for Primal Force, and even Manhunter and Fate have their charm, in retrospect.

[ultradav]

My only real issue with Zero Hour is that it ruined Hawk and Dove, which was (and remains) one of the best books DC was doing at the time. It flies under the radar so much as far as "best of the 90s" lists go, but it was truly wonder and still holds up today. That said, I also love Captain Atom so even if they'd stuck with their original plan it would've been a no-win for me.

Yeah, some members of the JSA were written off, which sucked, but those characters have benefited from (mostly) well-written characters taking up their mantles in one form or another. The Hawkman mythos was already screwed up so what's one more nail in that coffin? And I dug the new series that came out of it...Starman is an all-time favorite, I have a soft spot for Primal Force, and even Manhunter and Fate have their charm, in retrospect.

Hawk & Dove is truly one of the most underrated series of that time. It was IMO the only time anyone ever "got" the characters (before or since). Dove in particular went from being portrayed as a wishy washy stereotype of "peace" whose sole job was telling Hawk to calm down - to a character with teeth, humor, effectiveness, but still unique in her approach in contrast to Hawk. So yes imagine the disappointment when Armageddon 2001 ruined both characters for a long time. Dove in particular was slaughtered without even getting the chance to defend herself, to advance the character development of the male hero (in a way that made no sense for Hank) - it was "women in refrigerators" before that was a term. However, since they've been back, it has reverted to the previous issue of no one really knowing how to write Dove to be more than just a wet blanket for Hawk. There have been a handful of good war vs peace stories but mostly it's been a wash with those characters ever since.

[Kaijudo]

Hawk & Dove is truly one of the most underrated series of that time. It was IMO the only time anyone ever "got" the characters (before or since). Dove in particular went from being portrayed as a wishy washy stereotype of "peace" whose sole job was telling Hawk to calm down - to a character with teeth, humor, effectiveness, but still unique in her approach in contrast to Hawk. So yes imagine the disappointment when Armageddon 2001 ruined both characters for a long time. Dove in particular was slaughtered without even getting the chance to defend herself, to advance the character development of the male hero (in a way that made no sense for Hank) - it was "women in refrigerators" before that was a term. However, since they've been back, it has reverted to the previous issue of no one really knowing how to write Dove to be more than just a wet blanket for Hawk. There have been a handful of good war vs peace stories but mostly it's been a wash with those characters ever since.

All of this. And not to get political on the board, but it feels like this is the perfect time to bring them back in a big way, given how divided things are now (with the right creative team, of course).

[Triniking1234]

Do people have beef with Zero Hour?

I read it recently cuz someone mentioned it in the Dark Crisis thread.

Shit's horrible. A 5 week event series where a bunch of shit was happening in tie-ins in-between releases.
Most of the JSA gets killed off.
Jurgens killed 3 Flashes for some reason.
Then he kills Waverider and replaces him with Waverider.
Cosmic Boy is the Time Trapper.

I remember reading CoIE for the 1st time and it wasn't that bad.

[ultradav]

All of this. And not to get political on the board, but it feels like this is the perfect time to bring them back in a big way, given how divided things are now (with the right creative team, of course).

You're right - it would need the best writer. But it has potential -- a conservative and liberal duo who have serious disagreements but are forced to work together for the greater good. Potentially lots of great storytelling there in the right nuanced hands. Like the Kesel series, it would have to show that sometimes Dove was right sometimes Hawk was right, they weren't perfect but they complimented one another. But that kind of story has the potential to go south if they're just turned into stereotypes in the wrong hands.

One thing though that was good about the Kesel series is they removed the concept from the Vietnam politically dated idea of war v peace and used order v chaos. It opened up storytelling possibilities somewhat.