Wrong turns made in storylines for DC Comics

[king81992]

Is it old? It was a free movie on Prime last month. It was kind of like Conan and XMen mixed together but with no Mamoa and no Halle Berry

I didn't know Beastmaster had a movie. It was old, I think, since the TV show reruns used to air on WB 11 when I was a kid.

[caj]

Is it old? It was a free movie on Prime last month. It was kind of like Conan and XMen mixed together but with no Mamoa and no Halle Berry

If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's from 1982. It stars Marc Singer in the title role.

Not a great movie, but as a teen in the 80s, it was exciting enough. Singer and Tanya Roberts are both great eye candy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beastmaster

[Rincewind]

We would have used established Atlantean history (including both the Golden Age Aquaman and Arion's early days), but also established a lot of new Atlantean history, including a mystic/folkloric reason why there'd been multiple "Aquamen."


kdb

Thanks for the background info. I'm always curious about how the sausage is made.

[Stanlos]

If it's the one I'm thinking of, it's from 1982. It stars Marc Singer in the title role.

Not a great movie, but as a teen in the 80s, it was exciting enough. Singer and Tanya Roberts are both great eye candy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Beastmaster

It was scary! But it had that thing like GAME OF THRONES raven guy where he could look at stuff through birds. Beastman Master could look through cats too

[Stanlos]

I wonder if the wrong turn was not having the Superman, the Wonder Woman, and a Batman be around since early days a la their pubIication record and the others switch out or come and go with new heroes as time goes. Obviously Batman today would not be Bruce Wayne but perhaps a descendant or an admire or trusted ally of the last one. Supes and Wondy could MIA for some extended periods if necessary due to their various commitments and adventures but they always return to Earth to lead and inspire.

I think that would drive home their iconic status as the triumvirate of justice and power and it would naturally allow for new heroes without dissing anyone. Because of his place in history I think Captain Marvel should also be a constant figure

[Tzigone]

Personally, I still think Jason Todd being beaten to death with a crowbar was the better part of that story. I never saw a reason for Jason to be brought back.

Peace

Edit: Mind here, I'm not trying to be mean or anything. My point is, Batman endangers minors, putting them to fight crime and homicidal maniacs on a daily basis at his side. Jason's death showed that not everybody was up for that task. Dick was special, and, in his own way, after him, so was Tim. I don't think yet another edgy character was a good trade-off for that amazing cautionary tale.

And Wally and Roy and so many others, just that one particular one wasn't special...yuck. Worse of all, was that (like you) DC blames Jason for his lack of "specialness" instead of blaming the adult who put him in a costume (and in the post-COIE version, did it for selfish reasons) and encouraged him to fight villains. Ever after, we get all the "bad seed" and "never fit for the job" shit instead of treating like it was - Jason doing a hero's job of trying to save someone, but sometimes a hero loses. And that's even before we get the plotholes and not-great-continuity of the actual story.

I hate it when a hero turns bad - especially if he kills people.

I very much agree. For me the point of superhereos is that the are heroic. And good. Not perfect, but good. But if one musts go bad, it should be built up over time and not just thrown out there for shock value or done to replace a character (which is likely to make the new character disliked). I ought to get upset over the frequent reversals and heroes being allowed back into the fold like nothing happened, but frankly the "going bad" stories are so poorly done (and disliked by me, anyway) that I just can't care. Especially given how originally-villains are welcomed in when they're popular enough characters.

[kcomics]

You're reading a DC Comics book and LOVING it. Then something happens and the story takes a wrong turn that ruins it for you.

What are some examples of wrong turns writers (or book editors) have taken in DC Comics (your opinion only)?

I thought I posted something on this thread, but apparently I didn't.

Things they did right.

The Killing Joke as a canon story doesn't really hurt the Joker that much. It could be Joker's true origin, or it could be Joker messing with Batman because he wants to make him have sympathy for someone he probably shouldn't have sympathy for. This is not out of character for the Joker. In that same vain, all of the books based on it could be retconned as misdirects for Batman. Besides, giving the Joker some sort of nebulous past where maybe he wasn't the worst person in the world doesn't really hurt or limit his character. Killing Joke is what made me start to like the Joker, honestly. The idea that there was something else underneath the clown makeup made him less like a cartoon character and more like a person.

Giving Joker a fanboyish Batman obsession that borders on romantic fascination was good, too. If Joker's motivated by predictable things--money, power, fame, recognition, he's going to be more predictable. Making him motivated by other things, such as wanting to give Batman a challenging adventure to show him what an awesome super villain he is, is classic comic book Joker and has the ability to keep the reader guessing, because to Batman, "Joker has no real motives." Writing him like he thinks he's a comic book character without ever actually stating that he thinks that is good, too, because if Joker's acting like there's no consequences for his heinous actions while the other characters are appalled and shocked by his actions, that can make for an entertaining story.

Bringing back obscure characters. I love Duela Dent and the other characters that originated from Earth 3. Making her a character with a nebulous past and really playing up her skills as a con-artist should have been the way to go with her, imo, but I guess DC missed the memo.

Using Elseworlds to tell stories that are interesting but would not fit in main continuity. Wanna see the Joker rehabilitated with Harley Quinn by his side? There's an Elseworlds for that. Wanna see Thomas Wayne as Batman? There's an Elseworlds for that. Wanna see Batman as Sherlock Holmes in Victorian England? Yep, there's also an Elseworlds for that.

Things they did wrong.

Messing up the Joker's character. The Joker should be funny, sometimes scary, and keep the reader guessing. This edgy shock value stuff is to quote a movie with the same quality...really really bad, and it doesn't feel like the Joker. I kind of like it when the Joker is just seriously overpowered and able to mess with everyone's minds. It creates a challenge for the heroes and the character can really stand out as the worst of the worst. The best Joker stories are the ones where he's like something out of a nightmare--The Man Who Laughs, a criminal mastermind who keeps you guessing--that Batman and Robin story, or a fun side character who Batman has to tolerate to solve a pressing mystery that could affect innocents and non-innocents--Batman Europa and the Arkham games.

Reinventing obscure characters just to fit the story. We noticed that you took away Duela's penchant for copying other people and nerfed her power levels, DC! I also noticed that you decided to turn Earth 3 Joker into a villain, which in my opinion takes away from his character. The Earth 3 rogues should all be anti-heroes, just maybe a little weaker than their main Earth counterparts because Owlman and the Crime Syndicate win somehow. Also, giving Owlman a partial rehabilitation arc was not necessary; the guy is a destroyer of universes. You'd think that if anyone deserves to get what's coming to him, it's Thomas Wayne Jr. He's the original "evil Batman."

Inventing brand new characters because they apparently forgot what the older ones are capable of. Okay, the Batman Who Laughs stories had potential, but it was handled kind of poorly. For one thing, Joker could have gotten involved without it being out of character, but for some reason, he opted to poison Batman and sit this one out. I guess this was done to shine a spotlight on Gordon's son, but I'm getting the impression that the writers didn't know what they wanted to do with some of the characters in this story.

Treating Elseworlds like Marvel's "What If" stories. Elseworlds are not just hypothetical stories in the DC multiverse; they're supposed to be alternate worlds that characters can visit, yet I have not seen one crossover event with a well-known Elseworlds story in decades. Elseworlds have so much potential. They could even be used to give readers who are bored with the main series better more quality stories. A lot of readers don't mind the fact that they're not part of main continuity. That gives the writers so much more freedom.

I'd like to find out what happened to Joker's and Harley's children, for one thing.

Overusing certain characters un-creatively and writing them poorly. They did this with the Joker, and I find it awful. That tatted up version that looks like Jared Leto is NOT THE JOKER, DC! We remember what the character looks and acts like, okay? If you need to take a break and use other characters because you're tired of using the Joker, then go on and take a break. We don't mind. Give Riddler or Two-Face some screen time.

[marhawkman]

I thought I posted something on this thread, but apparently I didn't.

Things they did right.

The Killing Joke as a canon story doesn't really hurt the Joker that much. It could be Joker's true origin, or it could be Joker messing with Batman because he wants to make him have sympathy for someone he probably shouldn't have sympathy for. This is not out of character for the Joker. In that same vain, all of the books based on it could be retconned as misdirects for Batman. Besides, giving the Joker some sort of nebulous past where maybe he wasn't the worst person in the world doesn't really hurt or limit his character. Killing Joke is what made me start to like the Joker, honestly. The idea that there was something else underneath the clown makeup made him less like a cartoon character and more like a person.

Giving Joker a fanboyish Batman obsession that borders on romantic fascination was good, too. If Joker's motivated by predictable things--money, power, fame, recognition, he's going to be more predictable. Making him motivated by other things, such as wanting to give Batman a challenging adventure to show him what an awesome super villain he is, is classic comic book Joker and has the ability to keep the reader guessing, because to Batman, "Joker has no real motives." Writing him like he thinks he's a comic book character without ever actually stating that he thinks that is good, too, because if Joker's acting like there's no consequences for his heinous actions while the other characters are appalled and shocked by his actions, that can make for an entertaining story.

Bringing back obscure characters. I love Duela Dent and the other characters that originated from Earth 3. Making her a character with a nebulous past and really playing up her skills as a con-artist should have been the way to go with her, imo, but I guess DC missed the memo.

Using Elseworlds to tell stories that are interesting but would not fit in main continuity. Wanna see the Joker rehabilitated with Harley Quinn by his side? There's an Elseworlds for that. Wanna see Thomas Wayne as Batman? There's an Elseworlds for that. Wanna see Batman as Sherlock Holmes in Victorian England? Yep, there's also an Elseworlds for that.

Things they did wrong.

Messing up the Joker's character. The Joker should be funny, sometimes scary, and keep the reader guessing. This edgy shock value stuff is to quote a movie with the same quality...really really bad, and it doesn't feel like the Joker. I kind of like it when the Joker is just seriously overpowered and able to mess with everyone's minds. It creates a challenge for the heroes and the character can really stand out as the worst of the worst. The best Joker stories are the ones where he's like something out of a nightmare--The Man Who Laughs, a criminal mastermind who keeps you guessing--that Batman and Robin story, or a fun side character who Batman has to tolerate to solve a pressing mystery that could affect innocents and non-innocents--Batman Europa and the Arkham games.

Reinventing obscure characters just to fit the story. We noticed that you took away Duela's penchant for copying other people and nerfed her power levels, DC! I also noticed that you decided to turn Earth 3 Joker into a villain, which in my opinion takes away from his character. The Earth 3 rogues should all be anti-heroes, just maybe a little weaker than their main Earth counterparts because Owlman and the Crime Syndicate win somehow. Also, giving Owlman a partial rehabilitation arc was not necessary; the guy is a destroyer of universes. You'd think that if anyone deserves to get what's coming to him, it's Thomas Wayne Jr. He's the original "evil Batman."

Inventing brand new characters because they apparently forgot what the older ones are capable of. Okay, the Batman Who Laughs stories had potential, but it was handled kind of poorly. For one thing, Joker could have gotten involved without it being out of character, but for some reason, he opted to poison Batman and sit this one out. I guess this was done to shine a spotlight on Gordon's son, but I'm getting the impression that the writers didn't know what they wanted to do with some of the characters in this story.

Treating Elseworlds like Marvel's "What If" stories. Elseworlds are not just hypothetical stories in the DC multiverse; they're supposed to be alternate worlds that characters can visit, yet I have not seen one crossover event with a well-known Elseworlds story in decades. Elseworlds have so much potential. They could even be used to give readers who are bored with the main series better more quality stories. A lot of readers don't mind the fact that they're not part of main continuity. That gives the writers so much more freedom.

I'd like to find out what happened to Joker's and Harley's children, for one thing.

Overusing certain characters un-creatively and writing them poorly. They did this with the Joker, and I find it awful. That tatted up version that looks like Jared Leto is NOT THE JOKER, DC! We remember what the character looks and acts like, okay? If you need to take a break and use other characters because you're tired of using the Joker, then go on and take a break. We don't mind. Give Riddler or Two-Face some screen time.

Yeah, it's weird seeing a fictional universe... being written by people who seemingly don't know the setting... that they're writing. :/

[kcomics]

Yeah, it's weird seeing a fictional universe... being written by people who seemingly don't know the setting... that they're writing. :/

DC has a lot of different kinds of fans to please at this point. They have people who like specific characters and don't want them mistreated, as far as storytelling quality goes, and they have younger fans who are unaware of how good the stories can be when they hit all of the right notes. Plus, I guess there's also nostalgia bias, so I can't say I'm being completely objective, and DC has the right to write whatever they want, of course, but I know what I like--good stories with reliable characterization for the characters who are supposed to appear in the stories.

[married guy]

OK, ANOTHER horrible wrong turn that springs to mind...

The turn of Raven and Changeling to the Dark Side (#100 onwards).
I'm a big Marv Wolfman fan, he's a lovely bloke. But by this time he was really limping to the finish line.

[Jim Kelly]

What I liked about BATMAN: THE KILLING JOKE were all the call-outs to Batman comics of the past. Whether this was Brian Bolland's idea or Alan Moore's, I don't know. But it made me feel that the comic was acknowledging all iterations of Batman as valid.



On page 11, you've got the Jerry Robinson Joker card, Sheldon Moldoff's portrait of the Batman Family (from BATMAN ANNUAL No. 2), all the items in the Bat-Cave like the giant penny, dinosaur and Whirly-Bat, and various artists' depictions of Joker.



On page 13, I love the domestic home life of Jim and Barbara--even it that will be blown away on the next page. It feels like the 1960s. It's a nice classic six panel grid. Panel 5's newspaper has the image of Batman from DETECTIVE COMICS 27, as well as the Dick Sprang version of the Joker (is this suggesting that the Joker was somehow in "The Case of the Chemical Syndicate"?).



And page 35 has the Dark Knight show up in the Batmobile of 1950--the design of Dick Sprang! And Batman himself appears as an early Bob Kane design.

[marhawkman]

DC has a lot of different kinds of fans to please at this point. They have people who like specific characters and don't want them mistreated, as far as storytelling quality goes, and they have younger fans who are unaware of how good the stories can be when they hit all of the right notes. Plus, I guess there's also nostalgia bias, so I can't say I'm being completely objective, and DC has the right to write whatever they want, of course, but I know what I like--good stories with reliable characterization for the characters who are supposed to appear in the stories.

Well, it's rare to get something good out of ignoring continuity though. More so when it just confuses fans...

[ultradav]

OK, ANOTHER horrible wrong turn that springs to mind...

The turn of Raven and Changeling to the Dark Side (#100 onwards).
I'm a big Marv Wolfman fan, he's a lovely bloke. But by this time he was really limping to the finish line.

Titans was just off the rails in that era. They just kept trying to shock and create big moments over and over again, it was way too extra.

[caj]

Killing off Lyrissa Mallor in L.E.G.I.O.N '91.

She was a likeable fascinating character. Maybe the most likeable character in the book. I know from Legion of Super Heroes that Lydea Mallor was supposed to be Talok's greatest champion but they did too good of a job writing Lyrissa as a character. I wanted more from her. Never cared for Lydea.

[Dog of Thunder]

Titans was just off the rails in that era. They just kept trying to shock and create big moments over and over again, it was way too extra.

I'm surprised no one has brought up Technis yet