Wrong turns made in storylines for DC Comics

[caj]

I'm of the opposite opinion. Barry's death was up there with Dick Grayson becoming Nightwing as two of the pillars of showing that things at DC moved forward. Between GL: Rebirth and Flash: Rebirth it was like DC was retreating and deciding its best days were in the past.

I agree.

No offense to Barry fans - I loved the character too and grew up with him. But I was reading the Flash a few years before COIE and it just wasn't working anymore. Flash is an iconic DC hero and needed something new. Wally was the perfect Flash after Barry. And it worked!!!!!!!!!!

Barry died a hero's death. And like Earth 2 Superman & Lois (plus Alex Luthor & Superboy Prime), deserved to stay right where Marv Wolfman left them.

[blunt_eastwood]

I agree.

No offense to Barry fans - I loved the character too and grew up with him. But I was reading the Flash a few years before COIE and it just wasn't working anymore. Flash is an iconic DC hero and needed something new. Wally was the perfect Flash after Barry. And it worked!!!!!!!!!!

Barry died a hero's death. And like Earth 2 Superman & Lois (plus Alex Luthor & Superboy Prime), deserved to stay right where Marv Wolfman left them.

I also agree and would add Jason Todd's death as another pillar of moving things forward.

And separately I have no problem with the way E2 Superman and the others returned in Infinite Crisis and I know that may be a controversial opinion.

[Sacred Knight]

I agree Barry being replaced needed to happen at the time. That's the whole reason what happened happened and it ended up working. But needing to be replaced by 1985 I think had little bearing anymore on potential worth to the character over two decades later. Enough time had passed that he could be approached with fresh eyes. And despite some mistakes made along the way I think time has proven that there was indeed still worth to the character of Barry Allen beyond being some guy who heroically died decades ago and is the only one who has to stay that way.

[Jim Kelly]

The only reason THE FLASH stopped progressing was because they made Cary Bates stop progressing. They wanted Bates to kill time until the Crisis when they were going to kill off the Flash. I completely believe that Bates could have done more stuff with Barry if they had let him.

THE FLASH was always a strong title for them. It maintained its run without pause--from 1959 through 1985. It was a dependable title. Only Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman had a comparable record--and even Batman and Wonder Woman went through rough patches during their runs, where THE FLASH hardly ever had the same troubles.

There was a time when the publisher would look at the staying power of a title and see that this was one they had to stand behind, because of its track record. Being on the racks for twenty-five years meant something.

After Crisis, Cary Bates was given CAPTAIN ATOM and that was one of the best titles they had at the time. What he did for Captain Atom, he could have done for Barry Allen. I've never seen Captain Atom handled as well as when Bates wrote the character.

[Timber Wolf-By-Night]

Bringing back Barry Allen went wrong when they took the "what Hal Jordan fans have been saying about how they'd bring Hal back while also completing destroying Kyle Raynor in the process" route to bring him back.

What made GL: Rebirth good was that it refused to vilify, delegitimize, job, or retcon Kyle's origins or even existence in order to make him worthless or the product of the forces of evil, let alone kill him.

Whereas Flash: Rebirth took the Flash Family, and their respect for Barry, and said, "Screw these guys. We're going to turn Barry into a giant amongst all speedsters, and all other speedsters' accomplishments, including those who actually preceded him and that jerk who some say actually surpassed him, and make them forever subservient to him. And afterwards, the fans will have no choice but to accept Barry or Nothing."

[caj]

bringing back barry allen went wrong when they took the "what hal jordan fans have been saying about how they'd bring hal back while also completing destroying kyle raynor in the process" route to bring him back.

What made gl: Rebirth good was that it refused to vilify, delegitimize, job, or retcon kyle's origins or even existence in order to make him worthless or the product of the forces of evil, let alone kill him.

Whereas flash: Rebirth took the flash family, and their respect for barry, and said, "screw these guys. We're going to turn barry into a giant amongst all speedsters, and all other speedsters' accomplishments, including those who actually preceded him and that jerk who some say actually surpassed him, and make them forever subservient to him. And afterwards, the fans will have no choice but to accept barry or nothing."

this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ so much this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[Nomads1]

I'm of the opposite opinion. Barry's death was up there with Dick Grayson becoming Nightwing as two of the pillars of showing that things at DC moved forward. Between GL: Rebirth and Flash: Rebirth it was like DC was retreating and deciding its best days were in the past.

I agree. And I was also a huge Barry fan and hated, at first, what they did to replace him with Wally. But it was needed. As was Kara Zor-El's death, clearing the slate for a sole survivor of Krypton Superman, as it should have always been. DC wanted to modernize their approach, and explore new ground, and I think that was a good way to go. He never should have been brought back. Hal shouldn't have been brought back. Jason Todd shouldn't have been broght back. Heck, I'll even argue that Ollie shouldn't have been brought back, although Conner was not making as much success as Wally and Kyle were, so you at least have a good arguement there. IMHO, Clark, Bruce and Diana are the only ones that should have the get out of death free card (Dick too).

Peace

[NathanS]

I agree. And I was also a huge Barry fan and hated, at first, what they did to replace him with Wally. But it was needed. As was Kara Zor-El's death, clearing the slate for a sole survivor of Krypton Superman, as it should have always been. DC wanted to modernize their approach, and explore new ground, and I think that was a good way to go. He never should have been brought back. Hal shouldn't have been brought back. Jason Todd shouldn't have been broght back. Heck, I'll even argue that Ollie shouldn't have been brought back, although Conner was not making as much success as Wally and Kyle were, so you at least have a good arguement there. IMHO, Clark, Bruce and Diana are the only ones that should have the get out of death free card (Dick too).

Peace

I would argue you either commit to everyone being on the line, or you don't no Trinity special privlages.

[Nomads1]

I would argue you either commit to everyone being on the line, or you don't no Trinity special privlages.

You have to remember that, in the end of the day, this is a business, and, even though I've always personally prefered second and third tier characters, there are some characters that are more irreplaceable than others. Hence, the privilage. It's that ol' adage, "all are equal in the eyes of the law (or of the fanbase), but some are more equal than others."
That's the way I see it, though.

Peace

Edit: Just to trace a parallel, while the golden age heroes such as GL, Flash, Atom and others disappeared after the war and eventually came back as different people in the silver age, Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman and Robin (Dick) continued on without pause.

[KC]

I'll die on the hill that bringing back Barry Allen was not only a good idea, it was overdue. He still had fans and there's this revolving door of death but no, only he has to stay dead. It was bullcrap. And as I'd pointed out earlier, very little of COIE mattered 10 years after the event was over. It only became relevant again in 2005, and that was a complete deconstruction of it in the first place. Only his death was forced to stick from an event that no one remembered once Kara Zor-El was brought back a year earlier in 2004. His cameo in Infinite Crisis should have been his full-fledged return.

All that said no, Wally didn't deserve to fall into irrelevance for a while in order to accommodate bringing him back. But that was due to wrongheaded creative decisions that didn't have to be made. Could've easily had Wally just go on vacation for a couple months, let Barry find his footing, then have both act as their own versions of the Flash in their corresponding title and city. Flash isn't Superman, its on a lesser scale more like GLs. Fans accept two in one world.

I completely agree. The death of Barry worked to give Wally a foothold as the Flash but by the time Barry came back, that foothold was established and Barry was still a good character that had plenty of fans that was still worthy of new stories.

Barry was the Flash for 29 years in real-time and was more than just his death in COIE.

[Jim Kelly]

I think characters are often mishandled and set up to fail, in order to justify a change in direction by the Powers That Be.

There was a period where the Wally West Flash was at the top of the heap, but loyalties shifted and the Flash books went through a lot of weird changes. That in turn gave them a good excuse to do the Rebirth thing. Wally wasn't the first character to go through this and he wouldn't be the last.

[KC]

It will be an unpopular opinion here, but replacing Barry with Wally on the Flash was A wrong turn in my opinion that killed any interest I had in reading the Flash.

[Thor2014]

Agreed. Bringing back Barry and the original multiverse are stupid ideas that destroy any weight that COIE had. Plus it makes it difficult to have any kind of legacy.

And yes the New 52 was the worst thing I've ever seen. Do it as a separate universe like Ultimate Marvel or a separate imprint like Black Label or Earth One.

From a business perspective that would be a stupid move in making it a secondary line that would just be ignored in favor of the main line. Just look at the Earth One books,they made little to no impact on DC Fandom and largely ignored.

An earth for golden age. One for silver age one 1985-2011 and one for the current continuity. That's why I never read the Ultimate Universe, only had interest in the "real continuity."

If anything the pre-Flashpoint dcu should've continued as an alternative world while the main continuity restarts. It's what happened in the silver age, Hal and bary weren't introduced as an alternate line of comics. No more half-@ss reboots, go all-in or don't bother at all.

The biggest wrong turn might be Byrne's Wimperman. Depowered him so much and made him more human than Kryptonian. Had the Kent's living so he was basically a man child who would run home to the farm whenever things went wrong. Superman having to wear an oxygen mask in space was insulting to the character. Crying Superman became an all too familiar of a sight.

[NathanS]

... In the silver age they used Superman crying on the covers ALL THE FUCKING TIME because it boosted sales! Superman has always been open with his emotions.

[Thor2014]

... In the silver age they used Superman crying on the covers ALL THE FUCKING TIME because it boosted sales! Superman has always been open with his emotions.

Still don't agree with it.