Wrong turns made in storylines for DC Comics

[Nomads1]

Like Jason Todd being beaten to death with a crowbar because of a fan poll (cringe), to the creation of the Red Hood character, which was kind of a neat reinvention of the character.

Personally, I still think Jason Todd being beaten to death with a crowbar was the better part of that story. I never saw a reason for Jason to be brought back.

Peace

Edit: Mind here, I'm not trying to be mean or anything. My point is, Batman endangers minors, putting them to fight crime and homicidal maniacs on a daily basis at his side. Jason's death showed that not everybody was up for that task. Dick was special, and, in his own way, after him, so was Tim. I don't think yet another edgy character was a good trade-off for that amazing cautionary tale.

[Rincewind]

I think one can disagree with an event without agreeing that later writers managed to make lemonade out of it. Like Jason Todd being beaten to death with a crowbar because of a fan poll (cringe), to the creation of the Red Hood character, which was kind of a neat reinvention of the character.

For me, the phrase 'wrong turn' means the story is going down a road that is much worse than came before. The Killing Joke, while crippling Barbara and ending her career as Batgirl, also put her on the story path to processing that and becoming Oracle. I found Barbara Gordon as Oracle to be a much more interesting than Batgirl. So The Killing Joke is a good turn for the character in my view.

I am still unsure of two things from this thread. The first one is how THE KILLING JOKE "hurt" the Joker. The second is why is the Hal Parallax arc (Emerald Twilight?) referred to as a character assassination. As a challenge from another older thread I went and got all the issues beginning from Reign and Return of Superman all the way through the Lantern books and GG Warrior. What he endured was impossible and the progression of the story was natural.

The Rebirth was horrid but it didn't have to be. And they could have used it to comment on mental illness (his mind snapped and the impetus for that was clear and sufficient).

Not sure how Joker was hurt by the Killing Joke. The biggest problem is that writers less talented than Alan Moore kept trying to top the story.

For Hal Jordan, to truly understand how DC assassinated his character you have to look before the Death of Superman story back the relaunch of Green Lantern title in the early 90s. Hal was one of the few active Green Lanterns left. He worked with John Stewart and Guy Gardner to bring back the Guardians and reform the Green Lantern Corp. Hal recruited, trained, and worked with returning and new Lantern. He also had an evolving relationship with the Guardians. Emerald Twilight threw all that out. Hal, who had witnessed entire universes destroyed and many planets die, now couldn't get over the destruction of Coast City. He attacked and killed the Corp he rebuilt and the Lanterns he fought beside. All of this was to remove the Corp and introduce a new GL character. Hal was 100% assassinated.

[williamtheday]

Yes, Moore has the Ron Desantis cleverness, the other writers were Trumps.

[All Star Superman]

I've never gotten over the ugliness of that 1-800 gimmick. It sickened me then and it's still disgusting now. Jason could have been easily written out of the book. His return later (maybe as a devotee of R'as or one of Bruce's other enemies) would have been far better than the nonsense used to justify his return. I did like the Red Hood identity being used, though.

[Stanlos]

For me, the phrase 'wrong turn' means the story is going down a road that is much worse than came before. The Killing Joke, while crippling Barbara and ending her career as Batgirl, also put her on the story path to processing that and becoming Oracle. I found Barbara Gordon as Oracle to be a much more interesting than Batgirl. So The Killing Joke is a good turn for the character in my view.



Not sure how Joker was hurt by the Killing Joke. The biggest problem is that writers less talented than Alan Moore kept trying to top the story.

For Hal Jordan, to truly understand how DC assassinated his character you have to look before the Death of Superman story back the relaunch of Green Lantern title in the early 90s. Hal was one of the few active Green Lanterns left. He worked with John Stewart and Guy Gardner to bring back the Guardians and reform the Green Lantern Corp. Hal recruited, trained, and worked with returning and new Lantern. He also had an evolving relationship with the Guardians. Emerald Twilight threw all that out. Hal, who had witnessed entire universes destroyed and many planets die, now couldn't get over the destruction of Coast City. He attacked and killed the Corp he rebuilt and the Lanterns he fought beside. All of this was to remove the Corp and introduce a new GL character. Hal was 100% assassinated.

Whooooaaaaaaaaa! BEFORE the Reign of Superman stuff? That is a LOT of time! Was this like a Dan DiDio type editorial mad-on for the character?

That said, it sounds like he was doing the usual hero work for which he was known. I know of some of that because I am a League superfan. I was thinking there was some secret knowledge of behind the scenes tampering or something.

[Rincewind]

I think one can disagree with an event without agreeing that later writers managed to make lemonade out of it. Like Jason Todd being beaten to death with a crowbar because of a fan poll (cringe), to the creation of the Red Hood character, which was kind of a neat reinvention of the character.

I am still unsure of two things from this thread. The first one is how THE KILLING JOKE "hurt" the Joker. The second is why is the Hal Parallax arc (Emerald Twilight?) referred to as a character assassination. As a challenge from another older thread I went and got all the issues beginning from Reign and Return of Superman all the way through the Lantern books and GG Warrior. What he endured was impossible and the progression of the story was natural.

The Rebirth was horrid but it didn't have to be. And they could have used it to comment on mental illness (his mind snapped and the impetus for that was clear and sufficient).

Whooooaaaaaaaaa! BEFORE the Reign of Superman stuff? That is a LOT of time! Was this like a Dan DiDio type editorial mad-on for the character?

That said, it sounds like he was doing the usual hero work for which he was known. I know of some of that because I am a League superfan. I was thinking there was some secret knowledge of behind the scenes tampering or something.

Basically, after the Death of Superman and Knightfall invigorated sales for Superman and Batman titles, DC editorial wanted to shake up Green Lantern. DC editors including Mike Carlin, Dennis O'Neil, Archie Goodwin, and Kevin Dooley (editor of GL) came up with the storyline to replace Hal with a new GL.

The GL writer at the time refused to go along and left the title. Ron Marz was brought in as the new writer for GL.

On the plus side, Ron Marz and the artist Daryl Banks made the new GL Kyle Rayner a likable character and wrote several years of solid stories with him. This also removed Gerard Jones as the GL writer and ended his run at DC. Considering the problems relating to Jones's later conviction, this is probably the best for the GL title.

[caj]

Basically, after the Death of Superman and Knightfall invigorated sales for Superman and Batman titles, DC editorial wanted to shake up Green Lantern. DC editors including Mike Carlin, Dennis O'Neil, Archie Goodwin, and Kevin Dooley (editor of GL) came up with the storyline to replace Hal with a new GL.

The GL writer at the time refused to go along and left the title. Ron Marz was brought in as the new writer for GL.

On the plus side, Ron Marz and the artist Daryl Banks made the new GL Kyle Rayner a likable character and wrote several years of solid stories with him. This also removed Gerard Jones as the GL writer and ended his run at DC. Considering the problems relating to Jones's later conviction, this is probably the best for the GL title.

I didn't mind Kyle taking over for Hal in GL. I actually liked Kyle and was interested in his story.

It's just the way they got rid of Hal that I could not stomach. I hate it when a hero turns bad - especially if he kills people. That's why I never could get into Injustice. I saw Superman kill Ollie and said 'NO!!!!!!'

[blunt_eastwood]

I didn't mind Kyle taking over for Hal in GL. I actually liked Kyle and was interested in his story.

It's just the way they got rid of Hal that I could not stomach. I hate it when a hero turns bad - especially if he kills people. That's why I never could get into Injustice. I saw Superman kill Ollie and said 'NO!!!!!!'

Did you literally yell out "NO!!!!" like Darth Vader?

[caj]

Did you literally yell out "NO!!!!" like Darth Vader?

LOL. No, I think I just gasped. Seriously, I had a stomach ache for several hours.

[NathanS]

Did you read issue #47 of v3 Green Lantern, because this is what Hal was like RIGHT before Emerald Twilight started in issue #48.



Keep in mind one of the trade paper backs added a page to a Superman book AFTER ET happened to try and make it look like a natural development.

Now let’s talk a bit about both the Guardians, the main theme of GL v3 up to that point and Hal’s actual relationship with Coast City, which actually ties into the theme element.

So let’s start with the Guardians. If you entered at ET or the post Rebirth stuff you're used to the Guardians being and having always been jackass or unemotional bureaucrats at best. This was not always the case. In fact, it was kind of rare. O’Neil’s famed 12-issue Hard traveling Heroes is the first time they get that characterization, and it honestly disappears after those 12 issues till Len Wein’s short run in the mid 80’s. And after him, Englehart goes back to the Guardians as caring kind-hearted people. When the Guardians return in 90 (Yes they left for a bit, long story) there’s a bit of a back-and-forth pull. The writer wanted to go with kind-hearted Guardians, the editor wanted the jackass Guardians. But overall they are presented as understanding and them and Hal having a great deal of respect for one another. They aren’t the sort to throw him on trial for having an emotional episode after a massive amount of death. That had to be forced onto them to make the story work.

So let’s talk theme and the theme of V3 at that point was, moving beyond the past. Each of our three GLs start the series with some part of the past haunting them. Hal’s life has fallen apart, John has the very recent ‘world blowing up’ thing and Guy is stuck in his feeling of inferiority and wanting to be the young hot-shot lantern despite being as old as Hal. There’s an enter damn issue where Guy won’t leave the Tattooed Man alone despite him wanting to just go straight because he’s stuck in the past. He’s a villain and you beat up a villain, Hal used to beat him up so he can beat him up better!

Hell, the big fight in issue 25 lays it out very clearly, Guy has kept himself artificially young with his ring and thinks that is why he’ll win the fight. He refuses to grow up. He needs to be forced out of the GLC and to find his own way forward and not hang on to the past to progress. Hal needs to stop letting the past control him, first by no longer running from it, and later by changing. He can’t just remake the GLC in his image but needs to learn to embrace people different from him. He needs to learn to be comfortable taking orders as well as giving them.

And then there’s Coast City. See at this point Coast City is not Hal’s Gotham. At best it's his Smallville. He hasn’t lived there for more than a year or two in real-time since 66. Coast City in volume 3 is a place he has grown past. He’s setting up in a new place Montoya Bay in order to start his own business. Hence why in 47 they show his handling of the destruction of Coast City as one of focusing on the people that survived and he can be there, he is moving forward not letting the past drag him back. Like the whole damn series has been about.

But the original version of ET gets thrown out at the last second, as in they had to stop the fucking presses because it wasn’t extreme enough and now Hal is out of nowhere an emotional wreak and his tramua makes him a monologing mass murderer because people dealing with emotional issues are EVIL and must be beaten up. The only reason we got a non-monologing, not-lunatic version of him as Parallax is that a writer looked at how Hal was being wittern from ET on and said “This is all garbage, we’re killing him so you can’t keep hurting him.”

[Proto Man]

Yeah, Emerald Twilight was rushed, out of nowhere, and sucked in a lot of ways. There are some fascinating things to come out of it. I think the concept, design, and name of Parallax as a villain is actually REALLY good. However, the execution of how he became that way isn't believable at all.

[skyvolt2000]

DC editors including Mike Carlin, Dennis O'Neil, Archie Goodwin, and Kevin Dooley (editor of GL) came up with the storyline to replace Hal with a new GL.

The GL writer at the time refused to go along and left the title. Ron Marz was brought in as the new writer for GL.

On the plus side, Ron Marz and the artist Daryl Banks made the new GL Kyle Rayner a likable character and wrote several years of solid stories with him. This also removed Gerard Jones as the GL writer and ended his run at DC. Considering the problems relating to Jones's later conviction, this is probably the best for the GL title.

Meanwhile you had a John Stewart book that sold that also go screwed over by that foursome.

They had 3 GL related books selling and derailed it for something that was NOT needed.

I mean if Hal went nuts over his city-John Stewart should have gone bat crazy a long time ago with his dead wife and a certain planet being blown up. Not to mention almost killing Star Sapphire.

Him going nuts would have made more sense.


NO it did NOT end Jones run at DC. He was doing Green Lantern Mosaic and a few Justice League books.

Guy, John, Justice League, Wonder Man and 3 years of Green Lantern are stuck in trade limbo.

[married guy]

Another one I don't think has been mentioned yet,

Bart being promoted to The Flash.
Badly handled and terribly written.
Thankfully it's been kinda retconned out of history.

[Jackalope89]

Personally, I still think Jason Todd being beaten to death with a crowbar was the better part of that story. I never saw a reason for Jason to be brought back.

Peace

Edit: Mind here, I'm not trying to be mean or anything. My point is, Batman endangers minors, putting them to fight crime and homicidal maniacs on a daily basis at his side. Jason's death showed that not everybody was up for that task. Dick was special, and, in his own way, after him, so was Tim. I don't think yet another edgy character was a good trade-off for that amazing cautionary tale.

Except, Jason was only edgy near the end of his run as Robin. Otherwise, he wasn't a "dark Robin", unless you count his tragic background. But then, Dick, Bruce, and a ton of others have just as or even moreso tragic backstories. But even in his "edgy" ending, Jason still went out a hero, trying to protect the woman that sold him out to the Joker from the blast.
The "edginess", for the most part (outside the last 2 arcs or so) was only added after his death. So Dick and Tim being "special" is BS. Jason was given a rotten chance and handled by a writer that hated the very idea of Robin in the first place (he even suggested giving Jason AIDS).

And the "Batman endangers minors" thing again. These are comics. Where even the "grounded, unpowered" heroes have ridiculous feats.

[krazijoe]

I didn't mind Kyle taking over for Hal in GL. I actually liked Kyle and was interested in his story.

It's just the way they got rid of Hal that I could not stomach. I hate it when a hero turns bad - especially if he kills people. That's why I never could get into Injustice. I saw Superman kill Ollie and said 'NO!!!!!!'

I liked Hal going bad, it kinda made sense. Well, not the whole Parallax thing, the whole Coast City thing. I think Parallax was dumb but Coast City was smart. But what Do I know, i express opinions on the internet...