Wrong turns made in storylines for DC Comics

[Thor2014]

Bringing back Barry wasn't necessarily bad, but basically giving him Wally's personality was.

Also does it make sense that nuWally is called Wallace, that's what Raven always called ogWally. That's like having Hal Jordan have the same name as his cousin Airwave. Presumably Hal is short for Harold and Airwave also being named Harold Jordan.

Sad Superman and Evil Superman have both been done way too much over the years.

[Thor2014]

It certainly took Diana down a dangerous road that I don't think she's ever recovered from. And what was worse was how awfully it was followed up on. There was no real redemption for Diana. The evidence never really surfaced that cleared her name completely. So it leaves a stain that many writers since have exploited, making things worse.

Diana didn't need redemption, she did what needed to be done she made a difficult decision. The lasso told her that the truth was that killing max would be the only way to stop him. Plus, ho hum we get the manipulated or evil Superman once again.

[Tzigone]

You're reading a DC Comics book and LOVING it. Then something happens and the story takes a wrong turn that ruins it for you.

Oh, there are so many. Let me make clear first that I'm talking about wrong turns in the sense that they dampened (or sometimes outright killed) my interest. Some of those changes were popular and sold well and were good decisions from a business perspective (either short or long term). As I've said before: what's best for me isn't what's best for DC.

The whole "Young Justice heroes aren't SERIOUS enough, they need to be traumatized/forced into 'growing up' and becoming SERIOUS" debacle.

Yes. And it was weird because most already had some serious things going on, they just weren't 24/7 angst. I will say adding Traya was a problem for me, too. She wasn't the right age, and she wasn't even the same character she used to be (personality wise) so I didn't like that.

Dick and Kory's wedding in the original telling was like that too. The relationship was really well done under Wolfman's pen then as they get closer to the wedding, **** just starts falling apart, you got Mirage sleeping with Dick while disguised as Kory, Kory being mad at Dick over it, Dick being a huge jerk as well, etc, etc. The whole thing's a mess.

The whole thing was a mess, that I agree on - totally ghastly. Though I'd have had them stay broken up the first time they broke up - there were several indications they just weren't compatible in certain regards, despite their feelings.

The ridiculously unbalanced and thematically disconnected conclusion to Infinite Crisis. Pretty much wasted the excellence provided in the year leading up to the mini.

I know others will disagree, but I feel that way about all heroes turning evil in shocking events. I don't think they should become evil (or do evil things "for a good reason") at all - to me the point of superheroes is them being heroes and good triumphing over evil. But if it is to be done, it needs to be shown on-panel, as the transition occurs. Done in three-issue stretch is ridiculous and revealing it as something that happened years ago (and thus contradicting then-characterization and invalidating many events since) is the absolute worst. And we've seen it done in a more personal than profession sense several times (Dick cheating on Kory with Babs, Ollie knowing about Connor, etc.) and it just sucks.

2)The Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman and the death/resurrection of Steve Trevor. I understand killing him off in the first place. Putting aside the whole problem with undoing deaths in comics as a whole, I can accept his being restored. But they couldn't leave it alone killing him a second time and then pulling another Steve Trevor out of their a,,,sleeve just before Crisis close everything off jst to give them a marriage as the universe was being closed down?

Agreed. It was worse than pointless, it was extremely disturbing but they don't act like it's disturbing. And I say that as someone who really likes golden age Steve (silver age Steve, not so much - feel similarly about Lois) and didn't want him dead - he did not need to be brought back and certainly not via the methods used.

1. Making Donna a murder weapon created to fight Diana (fights everything we love about Donna, completely undermined the character).

2. Aging up Jon 5 years. (Robbed the readers of years of potential Super Sons stories, which we were loving, and made him too duplicative of Connor).

3. Making Hawk the villain Extant instead of sticking with the original plan (because it leaked). Ruined Hawk and also felt forced in the story.

I agree with all of those. Now, I care much more about Donna as a Titan than her with the Amazons, muchless her with Diana (I've never felt that relationship particularly important), but that was horrible.

I read a few issues after Jon aged up to try and give it a chance, but no. It made Lois and Clark terrible parents. And then (like Kon), they just shunt him into a slot reminiscent of Clark's silver age teen years, stripping him of all his uniquness. I will say I wanted to see more of Jon without Damian. I enjoyed Supers Sons, but I really felt like Jon was too subsumed in only the Damian relationship, whereas Damian has other peers in his life. I did like seeing the healthy family dynamics Jon, Lois and Clark had, too.

Pre-COIE - making Iris West Allen from the future. It wasn't a huge deal, but I preferred her not from the future.

Wonder Woman - making Vanessa Silver Swan again. Never should have happened. It was something horrible that happened to her (she was a victim, not a villain), and she was rescued and then she gets to heal and move on and live her happy life (occasionally showing up in a friendly scene with Diana) - that's what should have happened.

Romance and reincarnation with Hawk and Dove (Hank and Dawn) - nope, yuck. Much better as buddies.

Taking Bart away from Helen, Max and his home town. It's fine to cancel his comic - no need to strip him away from his family and closest friends, though.

Making Ollie cheat on Dinah - I know many love that run. I'm not one of them. He was faithful and in love for so many years, but then "dark and gritty" reared it's head and he's just been locked into the ******* role ever since - he can't stay out of it long. I really liked them in the bronze age. Speaking of the bronze age - making Dinah Dinah's daughter. I know it's popular, but I think it was stupid from the start. By this point they knew characters lasted decades, and Mom-Dinah was locked into the 1940s in her youth so they knew this story would age out of likelihood, then out of possibility.

Devin Grayson on Nightwing.

Duke - I liked him in We ARE Robin and think he filled a role I liked better when he wasn't a meta (or a member of the family), and especially when he wasn't the biological offspring of villain. I really hate how heroes have to have personal connections with the villains all the time now. I was interested in seeing the WaR crew again - first issue killed that with what they did with everyone.

Steph as Robin. Steph being murdered as Robin. Steph abandoning her own identity and being an independent hero to be Batgirl and take orders from Babs (who is also her teacher, IIRC (haven't read much of that Batgirl title) so the "boss" of her in more than one aspect). I strongly preferred her earlier characterization as well. It's like I'd rather her keep being Spoiler and tell all them to go to hell than to take on Batgirl/Robin identity and try to win their approval (regardless if she fails or succeeds) - winning approval from people who treated her like crap is not a victory to me and going from independent to one of Batman or Barbara's soldiers doesn't fly with me, either. And 90s Tim, Cassie, Kon, and Bart to the 2000s version of them.

Taking away my Superboy. They just completely deconstructed the character and put a new one in his place. His home and family discarded. Personality, powers, and DNA changed. Then flatly contradicted his intro by Luthor's retconned involvement (and I mean things in Luthor's own thought bubbles). Retconned relationship dynamics. And I really liked the idea of him discovering himself as an individual, rather than as Superman-in-waiting. You know, him figuring out how to be his own kind of hero, and not being Superman, ever. But instead they sort of doubled-down on the natural heir aspect, which is very much not the future I'd choose for him. I guess technically he's still being more than he was created to be, but it's way less enjoyable. And, as I said, then they slotted him into an old role of silver-age Clark, which was depressing.

Blue Devil - his deal with evil. I guess it's not a wrong turn, so much as an entirely new storyline, but hated it. They had him make a deal - and not for what he'd always wanted more than anything (to be out of the suit), but for fame as an actor...he wasn't an actor and didn't want to be. He was special effects guy who did the stunt work because he knew how to work the suit he created.

Really bad - NTT when all the sudden Deathstroke is a noble guy. What the hell? He was a paid assassin for years! I really do not mind the idea is that Terra is evil. Sure she's a teen, but if we give teenage characters agency to be heroes, then we give them agency to be villains, IMO. I have no problem with the idea that was not groomed or manipulated into being a spy and trying to kill the team. Her being treated as evil is fine with me. Him not being treated as evil is not.

[king81992]

Oh, there are so many. Let me make clear first that I'm talking about wrong turns in the sense that they dampened (or sometimes outright killed) my interest. Some of those changes were popular and sold well and were good decisions from a business perspective (either short or long term). As I've said before: what's best for me isn't what's best for DC.

Yes. And it was weird because most already had some serious things going on, they just weren't 24/7 angst. I will say adding Traya was a problem for me, too. She wasn't the right age, and she wasn't even the same character she used to be (personality wise) so I didn't like that.

The whole thing was a mess, that I agree on - totally ghastly. Though I'd have had them stay broken up the first time they broke up - there were several indications they just weren't compatible in certain regards, despite their feelings.


I know others will disagree, but I feel that way about all heroes turning evil in shocking events. I don't think they should become evil (or do evil things "for a good reason") at all - to me the point of superheroes is them being heroes and good triumphing over evil. But if it is to be done, it needs to be shown on-panel, as the transition occurs. Done in three-issue stretch is ridiculous and revealing it as something that happened years ago (and thus contradicting then-characterization and invalidating many events since) is the absolute worst. And we've seen it done in a more personal than profession sense several times (Dick cheating on Kory with Babs, Ollie knowing about Connor, etc.) and it just sucks.

Agreed. It was worse than pointless, it was extremely disturbing but they don't act like it's disturbing. And I say that as someone who really likes golden age Steve (silver age Steve, not so much - feel similarly about Lois) and didn't want him dead - he did not need to be brought back and certainly not via the methods used.

I agree with all of those. Now, I care much more about Donna as a Titan than her with the Amazons, muchless her with Diana (I've never felt that relationship particularly important), but that was horrible.

I read a few issues after Jon aged up to try and give it a chance, but no. It made Lois and Clark terrible parents. And then (like Kon), they just shunt him into a slot reminiscent of Clark's silver age teen years, stripping him of all his uniquness. I will say I wanted to see more of Jon without Damian. I enjoyed Supers Sons, but I really felt like Jon was too subsumed in only the Damian relationship, whereas Damian has other peers in his life. I did like seeing the healthy family dynamics Jon, Lois and Clark had, too.

Pre-COIE - making Iris West Allen from the future. It wasn't a huge deal, but I preferred her not from the future.

Wonder Woman - making Vanessa Silver Swan again. Never should have happened. It was something horrible that happened to her (she was a victim, not a villain), and she was rescued and then she gets to heal and move on and live her happy life (occasionally showing up in a friendly scene with Diana) - that's what should have happened.

Romance and reincarnation with Hawk and Dove (Hank and Dawn) - nope, yuck. Much better as buddies.

Taking Bart away from Helen, Max and his home town. It's fine to cancel his comic - no need to strip him away from his family and closest friends, though.

Making Ollie cheat on Dinah - I know many love that run. I'm not one of them. He was faithful and in love for so many years, but then "dark and gritty" reared it's head and he's just been locked into the ******* role ever since - he can't stay out of it long. I really liked them in the bronze age. Speaking of the bronze age - making Dinah Dinah's daughter. I know it's popular, but I think it was stupid from the start. By this point they knew characters lasted decades, and Mom-Dinah was locked into the 1940s in her youth so they knew this story would age out of likelihood, then out of possibility.

Devin Grayson on Nightwing.

Duke - I liked him in We ARE Robin and think he filled a role I liked better when he wasn't a meta (or a member of the family), and especially when he wasn't the biological offspring of villain. I really hate how heroes have to have personal connections with the villains all the time now. I was interested in seeing the WaR crew again - first issue killed that with what they did with everyone.

Steph as Robin. Steph being murdered as Robin. Steph abandoning her own identity and being an independent hero to be Batgirl and take orders from Babs (who is also her teacher, IIRC (haven't read much of that Batgirl title) so the "boss" of her in more than one aspect). I strongly preferred her earlier characterization as well. It's like I'd rather her keep being Spoiler and tell all them to go to hell than to take on Batgirl/Robin identity and try to win their approval (regardless if she fails or succeeds) - winning approval from people who treated her like crap is not a victory to me and going from independent to one of Batman or Barbara's soldiers doesn't fly with me, either. And 90s Tim, Cassie, Kon, and Bart to the 2000s version of them.

Taking away my Superboy. They just completely deconstructed the character and put a new one in his place. His home and family discarded. Personality, powers, and DNA changed. Then flatly contradicted his intro by Luthor's retconned involvement (and I mean things in Luthor's own thought bubbles). Retconned relationship dynamics. And I really liked the idea of him discovering himself as an individual, rather than as Superman-in-waiting. You know, him figuring out how to be his own kind of hero, and not being Superman, ever. But instead they sort of doubled-down on the natural heir aspect, which is very much not the future I'd choose for him. I guess technically he's still being more than he was created to be, but it's way less enjoyable. And, as I said, then they slotted him into an old role of silver-age Clark, which was depressing.

Blue Devil - his deal with evil. I guess it's not a wrong turn, so much as an entirely new storyline, but hated it. They had him make a deal - and not for what he'd always wanted more than anything (to be out of the suit), but for fame as an actor...he wasn't an actor and didn't want to be. He was special effects guy who did the stunt work because he knew how to work the suit he created.

Really bad - NTT when all the sudden Deathstroke is a noble guy. What the hell? He was a paid assassin for years! I really do not mind the idea is that Terra is evil. Sure she's a teen, but if we give teenage characters agency to be heroes, then we give them agency to be villains, IMO. I have no problem with the idea that was not groomed or manipulated into being a spy and trying to kill the team. Her being treated as evil is fine with me. Him not being treated as evil is not.

Outside of Deathstroke's fanbase and certain writers, most people have issues with the whole Deathstroke is 'misunderstood and noble' nonsense. It was especially jarring under Wolfman, who wrote a Deathstroke with zero redeeming qualities and did an abrupt 180. At times, it felt like Deathstroke was his second self insert.

As for Terra, I'm 50/50 on the whole 'she should be evil' angle. I would take a semi redeemed/antihero/anti villain Terra over Harley, Black Adam and Deathstroke.

[MakeNightwingGreatAgain]

1. Seeley/King's Grayson series was doing excellent at taking Dick into a new direction and making him more of a solo hero! His build up with Helena was going fantastic and it truely was a masterpiece for a while despite its flaws. However, it started to go downhill real fast once they started to return Dick back to the Batfam status quo and the entire book was torpedoed by the new writers when they completely most of the development Dick had made thus far and his relationship with Helena was effectively pushed aside again for a forced Babs reference.

2. Kyle Higgins N52 Nightwing of course is infamous for being derailed due to all the Batfamily crossovers. It started to get ridiculous.

3. I always tell people to skip the last three issues of Tomasi's Nightwing run for the simple fact that DC had Tomasi nix all the solo development Dick had as a character and had him push Nightwing back to the Batfam to get him ready to take over the Batman mantle.

4. NTT is also infamous for going downhill in quality right around Titans Hunt.

[Refrax5]

Bringing back Barry wasn't necessarily bad, but basically giving him Wally's personality was.

Also does it make sense that nuWally is called Wallace, that's what Raven always called ogWally. That's like having Hal Jordan have the same name as his cousin Airwave. Presumably Hal is short for Harold and Airwave also being named Harold Jordan.

Sad Superman and Evil Superman have both been done way too much over the years.

Comments about "giving Barry Wally's personality" never ever make sense to me. It feels like a very superficial criticism where Barry being depicted as having a sense of humor is somehow giving him Wally's personality. Both characters had a sense of humor, but it was rarely a defining trait of either outside of media adaptations. It's never even been the same sense of humor. Barry being an upbeat, dorky guy and Wally being more brash and sardonic has always remained intact. Wally doesn't exactly have a monopoly on being "funny," especially since he usually wasn't especially funny outside of the cartoons.

[Refrax5]

I agree Barry being replaced needed to happen at the time. That's the whole reason what happened happened and it ended up working. But needing to be replaced by 1985 I think had little bearing anymore on potential worth to the character over two decades later. Enough time had passed that he could be approached with fresh eyes. And despite some mistakes made along the way I think time has proven that there was indeed still worth to the character of Barry Allen beyond being some guy who heroically died decades ago and is the only one who has to stay that way.

Absolutely agree. I feel like Wally's arc with being in his shadow and growing into his own role had been complete for a while and they were clearly struggling with where to take the character after that. Leaving one of the most important characters in comics dead forever when none of his peers had to always seemed a bit odd and unfair.

I also was never enamored with the way Barry died in COIE, which I know is sacrilegious. But he had suffered so much in the final years of his series and was finally given a happy ending, only to immediately have it cruelly ripped away so he could be tortured and die an agonizing death, desperately pleading for help....it just felt like a very ugly thing to do.

[Tzigone]

Absolutely agree. I feel like Wally's arc with being in his shadow and growing into his own role had been complete for a while and they were clearly struggling with where to take the character after that. Leaving one of the most important characters in comics dead forever when none of his peers had to always seemed a bit odd and unfair.

On the one hand, I agree (Barry's my favorite Flash). On the other, I wonder if there's a problem with character always having to have an "arc", to be going somewhere instead of just having good characters and good adventures in the moment. I'm not says no arcs ever, just not so much needing to have one in every issue.

Comments about "giving Barry Wally's personality" never ever make sense to me. It feels like a very superficial criticism where Barry being depicted as having a sense of humor is somehow giving him Wally's personality. Both characters had a sense of humor, but it was rarely a defining trait of either outside of media adaptations. It's never even been the same sense of humor. Barry being an upbeat, dorky guy and Wally being more brash and sardonic has always remained intact. Wally doesn't exactly have a monopoly on being "funny," especially since he usually wasn't especially funny outside of the cartoons.

I don't think he got Wally's personality. Unfortunately, I don't think he got Barry's personality, either, and as someone who is a big fan of old-school Barry, that's unfortunate.

My next contribution - I actually think the New Gods would have worked better if it could have been a close-ended story. I know it would deprive DC of reusing the characters/IP over and over, but I think it would have been good.

[Refrax5]

On the one hand, I agree (Barry's my favorite Flash). On the other, I wonder if there's a problem with character always having to have an "arc", to be going somewhere instead of just having good characters and good adventures in the moment. I'm not says no arcs ever, just not so much needing to have one in every issue.

I don't think he got Wally's personality. Unfortunately, I don't think he got Barry's personality, either, and as someone who is a big fan of old-school Barry, that's unfortunate.

My next contribution - I actually think the New Gods would have worked better if it could have been a close-ended story. I know it would deprive DC of reusing the characters/IP over and over, but I think it would have been good.

I didn't think it was that far off. It was a modernization, but (outside of Johns' grim take early on), but he was still the same kind-hearted, optimistic nerd he always was (in my opinion).

[Tzigone]

I didn't think it was that far off. It was a modernization, but (outside of Johns' grim take early on), but he was still the same kind-hearted, optimistic nerd he always was (in my opinion).

I never thought of old-school Barry as a nerd (not really that relevant to modern characterization, I guess). He liked comics - but they weren't nerdy back then, but mainstream. He had a scientist job, but that doesn't make one a nerd. He was confident in speaking to others, socially popular enough (judging from college friends), always well put together and stylish (in the early days, admittedly, before styles became more casual). I actually really like that about early Barry and Iris (which is all down to the artwork, I admit). I mean, comparing him to Bruce Wayne at the time, I'd say he was far more dapper/stylish looking.

[hitokiri_]

I'm still waiting for JLA s.e.x. featuring Ralph dibny and Beatriz dacosta.

[Stanlos]

Diana didn't need redemption, she did what needed to be done she made a difficult decision. The lasso told her that the truth was that killing max would be the only way to stop him. Plus, ho hum we get the manipulated or evil Superman once again.

But that conversation was the real meat of the story. The assurance that he would get to resolve it was key to Greg's decision to pursue the storyline. Unfortunately DiDio did DiDidiot things leaving both the writer and the character high and dry.

To say nothing of readers missing out on the potential of Greg's run. It should have continued as planned with Dodsons art. But oh well.

[Stanlos]

Outside the squandering of Rucka's run another derpy moment was the way they pooped on New Krypton. That "conclusion" came out of nowhere and redefined "weak".

Another one was the criminal betrayal of INFINITE CRISIS's stellar thematic buildup, most especially with the Trinity. Instead of seeing the impact of the Trinity reunited with each of them leading one of the three major tasks in the conclusion we had Batman and Superman doing that but WW just being wallpaper except at the end to further Geoff Johns forced and silly "me no h8man" storyline. Bats should have dealt with Brother Eye, Supes should have dealt with Superboy Prime, and WW should have dealt with the villan riot and Doomsday. 3 objectives, 3 leads.

But nope.

Lastly each time these "writers" do the rape schtick.

[Refrax5]

I never thought of old-school Barry as a nerd (not really that relevant to modern characterization, I guess). He liked comics - but they weren't nerdy back then, but mainstream. He had a scientist job, but that doesn't make one a nerd. He was confident in speaking to others, socially popular enough (judging from college friends), always well put together and stylish (in the early days, admittedly, before styles became more casual). I actually really like that about early Barry and Iris (which is all down to the artwork, I admit). I mean, comparing him to Bruce Wayne at the time, I'd say he was far more dapper/stylish looking.

Maybe so, but I think an adult man being into comics had more of a stigma back then than now. I think someone can have nerdy interests and still have friends and be somewhat confident in yourself. I don't think any of that stuff is exclusive unlss the person is a total stereotype. Modern Barry also has college friends and goes on dates and so forth.

If we're going for Barry as being portrayed as shy and awkward, that's the way Mark Waid wrote him post-Crisis. Honestly, new 52 Barry doesn't seem all that different from the New Frontier version of the character, who I thought was pretty classic.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I don't think he got Wally's personality. Unfortunately, I don't think he got Barry's personality, either, and as someone who is a big fan of old-school Barry, that's unfortunate.

That's a very good point. It's been almost 15 years since his returns and the only comics I felt like Barry was actually Barry were Final Crisis, the first arc of Jeremy Adams run and Voidsong.