Wrong turns made in storylines for DC Comics

[Stanlos]

I'm kind of on the side of Pallalax, since I didn't like the universe that had been created after Crisis and I wanted a better timeline. In the end they did Zero Hour the timeline--so there was still a change, just one where Halifax's murders were still all in continuity. This was the worst timeline--because it had all the bad stuff from the previous timeline plus more bad stuff like rebooting the Legion and killing off more of the J.S.A. But it did have Jack Knight as Starman so it wasn't all bad. Just mostly bad.

Wow! I didn't have a deep enough knowledge of dc comics to go as meta as all of that. However I really empathized with Jordan's pain. He was widely heralded as their greatest operative and was distinguished in service and highly decorated. Yet this one time he asks them for something they are harsh and clinical with him and not even forthcoming on Why. I was kind of angry along with him about it. And while I felt he crossed a line I understood the pain and trauma that caused him to snap like that. It is like he had a zillion 9/11s but with a personal connection far beyond such abstracts as patriotism or honor. Even more tragically I think he learned in the end that the Guardians didn't have that kind of power and that made him even more insane (kind of like Circe in War of the Gods and Hecate before time was time).

I think Hal's story prior to his Fear Cockroachification was one of the most epic , compelling and truly heartbreaking character arcs in all of comics. Like truly worthy of discussion and dissection in Humanities 304.

[NathanS]

A lot of is looking at the idea and ignoring the execution... and his story prior to that event. Suddenly the Guardians are being assholes for no reason despite everything written about them before then. And its going down the idea that people suffering become murders.... which THEY JUST DON'T! Suffering a great loss doesn't make you go on a murder spree. That's not how people work. Yes, the story does tell why he “broke”. But we just get generic “mental illness” here. And of course, “crazy” people just kill, right? It may be an accident, but they just are dangerous and should be avoided, right if not treated as a villain just to be stopped right?

BAH

I think Hal's story prior to this out of nowhere "he broke and want CRAZY" was a deeply interesting look at someone trying to deal with their life even as it sometimes falls apart on them. Someone who can't ever fully settle down yet also longs to. Always looking for a place and trying to find where he fits in and never quite doing it. It was great stuff thrown away for a decade for generic "bad guy had something sad happen to them which motivates them, but they are the BAD" dawdle. And it leaves people ignoring ALL that came before because they think this is the only story that matters in the character's history.

[Stanlos]

A lot of is looking at the idea and ignoring the execution... and his story prior to that event. Suddenly the Guardians are being assholes for no reason despite everything written about them before then. And its going down the idea that people suffering become murders.... which THEY JUST DON'T! Suffering a great loss doesn't make you go on a murder spree. That's not how people work. Yes, the story does tell why he “broke”. But we just get generic “mental illness” here. And of course, “crazy” people just kill, right? It may be an accident, but they just are dangerous and should be avoided, right if not treated as a villain just to be stopped right?

BAH

I think Hal's story prior to this out of nowhere "he broke and want CRAZY" was a deeply interesting look at someone trying to deal with their life even as it sometimes falls apart on them. Someone who can't ever fully settle down yet also longs to. Always looking for a place and trying to find where he fits in and never quite doing it. It was great stuff thrown away for a decade for generic "bad guy had something sad happen to them which motivates them, but they are the BAD" dawdle. And it leaves people ignoring ALL that came before because they think this is the only story that matters in the character's history.

I don't know about the generic comment but as one who has experienced such a break due to grief around the death of immediate family I really empathized. That was something I intimately recognized. People around me didn't understand my reaction. Some actually tried to tell me how I was supposed to feel and how long I was to feel a certain way. That just isn't how such things work.

So for me as a reader the story hit hard and was well done. But I can see how knowledge of behind the scenes elements might skew the view if permitted.

[married guy]

Another (IMO) ill conceived story turn involves Aquaman.
The water hand/Lady of the Lake storyline fell flat for me.
Especially considering as it came after Jurgens' run which I quite enjoyed.

[Timothy Hunter]

Another (IMO) ill conceived story turn involves Aquaman.
The water hand/Lady of the Lake storyline fell flat for me.
Especially considering as it came after Jurgens' run which I quite enjoyed.

That Aquaman reboot was shockingly bad for a writer as good as Rick Veitch.

[Timber Wolf-By-Night]

That Aquaman reboot was shockingly bad for a writer as good as Rick Veitch.

I never even read it, but I though "Secret Sea" was an absolutely horrid pun on "secrecy."

Okay, here's a wrong turn I haven't seen brought up yet, and it involves James Robinson's admitted tendency to be an utter snob. Specifically, the bait-and-switch reveal in his Starman series starring Jack Knight that the Starman who had preceded him, Will Payton, wasn't actually Payton at all and never had been Payton in the first place (he was instead an amnesiac Prince Gavin who got the late Will Payton's memories somehow mixed up with his own). James, I don't give a good goddamn who you think is cool or lame. Will Payton was a good and decent man, and that alone was reason enough for him to be respected (and to not piss off his fans) just because you think some even more obscure character was "cooler."

[Rincewind]

I'll add the Kurt Busiek run on Aquaman.

Aquaman disappears and is replaced by a younger man with the same name, powers, and appearance. The new Arthur Curry investigates his origins. He discovers that the original Aquaman was mutated into an underwater Cronenberg who later dies. New Arthur does the exact same stuff as old Arthur including becoming king of Atlantis.

After new Arthur makes a few other appearances, he disappears never to be referred to again. Original Aquaman later comes back to life. The End.

I understand Busiek was going for an underwater fantasy epic. But the whole thing just comes off as a complete narrative cul-de-sac.

[Stanlos]

Another (IMO) ill conceived story turn involves Aquaman.
The water hand/Lady of the Lake storyline fell flat for me.
Especially considering as it came after Jurgens' run which I quite enjoyed.

Jurgens AQUAMAN was quietly the best Aquaman has ever been. Jurgens didn't bother with any try hard BS or approach it like there was something to prove. Instead he used and highlighted the stuff that makes Aquaman AQUAMAN and no one has been able to touch that.

I still don't know what the Lady In The Lake was about. It seemed like that was forgotten

[Kurt Busiek]

I'll add the Kurt Busiek run on Aquaman.

Aquaman disappears and is replaced by a younger man with the same name, powers, and appearance. The new Arthur Curry investigates his origins. He discovers that the original Aquaman was mutated into an underwater Cronenberg who later dies. New Arthur does the exact same stuff as old Arthur including becoming king of Atlantis.

After new Arthur makes a few other appearances, he disappears never to be referred to again. Original Aquaman later comes back to life. The End.

I understand Busiek was going for an underwater fantasy epic. But the whole thing just comes off as a complete narrative cul-de-sac.

I only wrote the first ten issues of that run.

I didn't kill Orin or have young Arthur become king, and never intended to.

Had I stayed on the book, Orin would have eventually been cured and returned to his throne, and Arthur would have been a young adventurer finding his place in the world and, when needed, serving as Orin's agent. We'd have been able to tell King stories and Young Hero stories, just varying who was the lead.

Young Arthur was named Arthur Curry at DC request -- I suggested calling him Rex -- and was in a variation of the classic costume at DC's request too. Although I agreed with that, because we were told that as long as our Aquaman was in orange and green, Paul Norris got a creator cut.

Had I stayed, we'd have varied young Arthur's powers, too -- we got as far as hinting that he could see through the eyes of nearby fish, and that would have led to him being able to have fish act as an extension of his senses, but he wouldn't have been able to talk to them, and he wouldn't command them. He'd have had a rapport with them, not authority over them.

Aside from DC asking specifically for a new Aquaman, I felt like Orin had changed from the original in ways that made him less and less connected to the surface world that I wanted to, without scrapping Orin, have an Aquaman who had strong connections to the surface world, and who hadn't reached the "married his great love/king of a vast empire" stage, so we could see him develop and grow in his adventures. So we'd have Orin, essentially, as "What if Thor was the rules of (underwater) Asgard," and Arthur as "Young Thor figuring out this whole hero thing, but not fated to become king."

And a bunch of other stuff I'll save to do elsewhere.

kdb

[Stanlos]

Wow!!!!! That does sound epic! It reminds me of BEASTMASTER a bit but underwater. Were you going to pull from any of Atlantis' history with Atlan and all of that?

[married guy]

That Aquaman reboot was shockingly bad for a writer as good as Rick Veitch.

Right??
When I saw he was attached to the new Aquaman book I thought it was going to be awesome. I was SO disappointed with what we were given.

[king81992]

Wow!!!!! That does sound epic! It reminds me of BEASTMASTER a bit but underwater. Were you going to pull from any of Atlantis' history with Atlan and all of that?

Its been a while since I heard anyone bring up Beastmaster.

[Kurt Busiek]

Wow!!!!! That does sound epic! It reminds me of BEASTMASTER a bit but underwater. Were you going to pull from any of Atlantis' history with Atlan and all of that?

We would have used established Atlantean history (including both the Golden Age Aquaman and Arion's early days), but also established a lot of new Atlantean history, including a mystic/folkloric reason why there'd been multiple "Aquamen."


kdb

[Stanlos]

Its been a while since I heard anyone bring up Beastmaster.

Is it old? It was a free movie on Prime last month. It was kind of like Conan and XMen mixed together but with no Mamoa and no Halle Berry

[Stanlos]

We would have used established Atlantean history (including both the Golden Age Aquaman and Arion's early days), but also established a lot of new Atlantean history, including a mystic/folkloric reason why there'd been multiple "Aquamen."


kdb

Wow! I hope the ELSEWORLDS imprint returns for exploration of cool concepts such as this.