Venom 2022 appreciation thread

[Huntsman Spider]

In fairness Gohan doesn't have any healthy parental figures. His actual parents are dysfunctional to varying degrees and regardless of his change of heart, Piccolo is still the same guy who kidnapped and beat up a 5 year old.

Which granted is somewhat better off than Dylan's situation as he mostly lived with his abusive grandfather before Eddie came in.

As a Dragon Ball Z/Super fan, can't really argue with that.

In agreement with you about the mini-series.
Nice to see an earthbound Eddie handling different types of the criminal element (street-level; big business; foreign countries; etc.):

Priceless. Absolutely priceless.

[Lukmendes]

Well, alignment is a major change.

Yeah, but everyone else remains the same, gets flanderized, and forgotten lol.

Unless you're Tien, then you change sides and get the same treatment as everyone else.

Plus, Piccolo Jr's redemption/atonement arc in DBZ was a thing of pure narrative beauty. Be advised if you disagree on this last point we can't be friends anymore because I'm team Piccolo/Gohan-mentor/mentee all the way, just kidding (about the disagreement part anyway).

Between Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta and Boo, I think Piccolo may have the worst development to change from evil to good.

Saiyan saga has Goku, Kami and Gohan claiming Piccolo is not as evil as before, but that completely contradicts the 23rd tournament where Goku says Piccolo is as evil as ever and Kami definitely acts like Kami is bad enough that he has to be killed, and the way he acts is the same thing as King Piccolo.

And in the context of Saiyan saga itself, Gohan says Piccolo is not that evil, when Piccolo abandoned him to live by himself for six months, and is forcing Gohan to fight to begin with, and then when Gohan said Piccolo is not that bad, Piccolo's immediate response is to say the training will be even rougher.

The fight with the saiyans also has Piccolo acting overall like an ******* even when there's no need for it lol.

I really like saiyan saga, but whenever I re-read it, I can only roll my eyes at how Toriyama says Piccolo changed, and makes 0% effort to show any change until Piccolo sacrifices himself to save Gohan, it's a weird case of the writing telegraphing his change and still feeling sudden and half assed lol.

Vegeta is also another really awkward change, specially his relationship with Bulma, 'cause Bulma having sex with the guy who killed her friends and boyfriend makes sense lol.

I feel like Tien's and Boo's are the only ones that actually work well, though Boo's is a bit too fast with how quickly he agrees to stop killing.

as long as you dont go around saying he is the boy father we cool

Yeah, TFS made people overrate how "fatherly" Piccolo is, when he barely interacts with Gohan after Namek, nor is he that much better than Goku in how Gohan gets treated.

It's only in Super where you can actually make that point, and Super flanderized Goku even more than Toriyama did (Either anime or manga do so) lol.

In fairness Gohan doesn't have any healthy parental figures. His actual parents are dysfunctional to varying degrees and regardless of his change of heart, Piccolo is still the same guy who kidnapped and beat up a 5 year old.

Which granted is somewhat better off than Dylan's situation as he mostly lived with his abusive grandfather before Eddie came in.

To make it slightly worse, Gohan was actually four, English dubs aged him up by an year for some reason.

Don't forget Piccolo abandoned the four year old to live by himself for six months, so yeah lol.

[Celgress]

Yeah, but everyone else remains the same, gets flanderized, and forgotten lol.

Unless you're Tien, then you change sides and get the same treatment as everyone else.



Between Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta and Boo, I think Piccolo may have the worst development to change from evil to good.

Saiyan saga has Goku, Kami and Gohan claiming Piccolo is not as evil as before, but that completely contradicts the 23rd tournament where Goku says Piccolo is as evil as ever and Kami definitely acts like Kami is bad enough that he has to be killed, and the way he acts is the same thing as King Piccolo.

And in the context of Saiyan saga itself, Gohan says Piccolo is not that evil, when Piccolo abandoned him to live by himself for six months, and is forcing Gohan to fight to begin with, and then when Gohan said Piccolo is not that bad, Piccolo's immediate response is to say the training will be even rougher.

The fight with the saiyans also has Piccolo acting overall like an ******* even when there's no need for it lol.

I really like saiyan saga, but whenever I re-read it, I can only roll my eyes at how Toriyama says Piccolo changed, and makes 0% effort to show any change until Piccolo sacrifices himself to save Gohan, it's a weird case of the writing telegraphing his change and still feeling sudden and half assed lol.

Vegeta is also another really awkward change, specially his relationship with Bulma, 'cause Bulma having sex with the guy who killed her friends and boyfriend makes sense lol.

I feel like Tien's and Boo's are the only ones that actually work well, though Boo's is a bit too fast with how quickly he agrees to stop killing.



Yeah, TFS made people overrate how "fatherly" Piccolo is, when he barely interacts with Gohan after Namek, nor is he that much better than Goku in how Gohan gets treated.

It's only in Super where you can actually make that point, and Super flanderized Goku even more than Toriyama did (Either anime or manga do so) lol....

Well, I warned you. We aren't friends anymore, sorry.

Just kidding, while I disagree vehemently with your stance about Piccolo anyhow (I never did like Vegeta's redemption and how quickly everyone accepted him because, IMHO, both made zero sense), I won't let it bother me. Plus, this is not the thread for such a back and forth. This thread is to show our love for Venom.

[Lukmendes]

Well, I warned you. We aren't friends anymore, sorry.

Just kidding, while I disagree vehemently with your stance about Piccolo anyhow (I never did like Vegeta's redemption and how quickly everyone accepted him because, IMHO, both made zero sense), I won't let it bother me.

Vegeta had characters accepting him but still not liking him, everyone was annoyed at him for existing, Krillin for example, didn't trust him and thought that the androids would be a good idea to keep him, and Piccolo, in check.

The only ones who were actually okay with him were Goku, Gohan, and Goku is a dumbass and Gohan has Stockholm Syndrome, and the Bulma thing makes no fucking sense for everyone involded, was just Toriyama's lazy way to make a saiyan baby.

It tells you something when Trunks himself was disgusted at Vegeta that everyone else was annoyed at Vegeta, but yeah, still awkward.

Piccolo at the same time had characters being okay with him even if done awkwardly, Tien in particular has a line where he says he forgot Piccolo was evil, like, yeah, the guy killed Chiaotzu, almost killed him, and Tien forgot he was evil lol.

Plus, this is not the thread for such a back and forth. This thread is to show our love for Venom.

Venom's own change of side was awkward too, since he was just a petty villain who was butthurt because he was revealed to have made a fake interview about Sin Eater, and while he liked to talk about "protecting the innocent", he was very okay with killing innoncents who were gonna be an inconvenience later on, so classic villain being hypocrite lol.

Someone like that can change, but Venom himself still felt awkward to do so, and Carnage blatantly was made so this change of sides is more acceptable, though, at least Carnage's own story still has him being an ******* since he tried to attack Spidey as soon as Carnage was "killed", it's still jarring to see someone who killed innocents without a care being changed into an anti-hero while the story ignores how much he used to be a complete psychopath, a similar problem I see with Piccolo lol.

[Mantis-Ray]

Vegeta had characters accepting him but still not liking him, everyone was annoyed at him for existing, Krillin for example, didn't trust him and thought that the androids would be a good idea to keep him, and Piccolo, in check.

The only ones who were actually okay with him were Goku, Gohan, and Goku is a dumbass and Gohan has Stockholm Syndrome, and the Bulma thing makes no fucking sense for everyone involded, was just Toriyama's lazy way to make a saiyan baby.

It tells you something when Trunks himself was disgusted at Vegeta that everyone else was annoyed at Vegeta, but yeah, still awkward.

Piccolo at the same time had characters being okay with him even if done awkwardly, Tien in particular has a line where he says he forgot Piccolo was evil, like, yeah, the guy killed Chiaotzu, almost killed him, and Tien forgot he was evil lol.



Venom's own change of side was awkward too, since he was just a petty villain who was butthurt because he was revealed to have made a fake interview about Sin Eater, and while he liked to talk about "protecting the innocent", he was very okay with killing innoncents who were gonna be an inconvenience later on, so classic villain being hypocrite lol.

Someone like that can change, but Venom himself still felt awkward to do so, and Carnage blatantly was made so this change of sides is more acceptable, though, at least Carnage's own story still has him being an ******* since he tried to attack Spidey as soon as Carnage was "killed", it's still jarring to see someone who killed innocents without a care being changed into an anti-hero while the story ignores how much he used to be a complete psychopath, a similar problem I see with Piccolo lol.

In fairness most villain turns don't really make that much sense and usually a require a degree of bullshitting to make them more sympathetic.

Harley Quinn is a pretty emblematic case as her redemption turn requires basically holding Joker responsible for every bad thing she did while Harles hides behind the defense of being a battered girlfriend to avoid responsibility.

[Lukmendes]

In fairness most villain turns don't really make that much sense and usually a require a degree of bullshitting to make them more sympathetic.

If a writer bothers with even that much, X-Men's Krakoan era have the "redeemed" villains still acting the same way, but the good guys are okay with that for some reason.

Harley Quinn is a pretty emblematic case as her redemption turn requires basically holding Joker responsible for every bad thing she did while Harles hides behind the defense of being a battered girlfriend to avoid responsibility.

Or Poison Ivy needing everyone to pretend she wasn't a terrorist who has killed people before, but "Poison Ivy never killed!" is a thing somehow from what I've been told lol.

But yeah, stuff like that makes it clear villains weren't supposed to change sides, and Eddy is yet another example, his motivations also make it sound like he wasn't really meant to be someone who sticks around.

[Mantis-Ray]

If a writer bothers with even that much, X-Men's Krakoan era have the "redeemed" villains still acting the same way, but the good guys are okay with that for some reason.



Or Poison Ivy needing everyone to pretend she wasn't a terrorist who has killed people before, but "Poison Ivy never killed!" is a thing somehow from what I've been told lol.

But yeah, stuff like that makes it clear villains weren't supposed to change sides, and Eddy is yet another example, his motivations also make it sound like he wasn't really meant to be someone who sticks around.

In X-Men's case its an instance of realpolitik. Xavier managed to successfully unite the majority of Mutants into one nation under the common goal of survival and so he managed to convince the villains and heroes to enter a long-term alliance. But obviously its not like everyone just automatically gets along with each other, the alliance only works as long as everyone plays ball and every villain is on a precarious position. Sinister is only brought in because they need his clone science tech and everyone makes it clear they despise his guts.

Ivy though is a bizarre case of the author retconning the whole thing cause he got horribly harassed by Ivy stans. King was getting death threats and **** so he he retconned Ivy killing people and wrote the "everyone loves Ivy" arc so Ivy fans can get the Hell off his back. Which is a really sad and fucked up thing.

I still theorize that the stans who harassed King were actually Harley-stans who got pissed because Ivy being a killer messes with their fantasy of Ivy being a saint because they regard Ivy as nothing more than a prize-wife for Harley so she can have the bestest most perfect life that "she deserves"

Eddie is a pretty fun case cause he goes back and forth on this. He was a villain, then a brutal anti-hero, back into a villain, is a sort of hero as Anti-Venom though he's batshit insane there, is a villain then a hero-ish as Toxin, and finally after getting Venom back he's seriously striving to be a decent man.

[Lukmendes]

In X-Men's case its an instance of realpolitik. Xavier managed to successfully unite the majority of Mutants into one nation under the common goal of survival and so he managed to convince the villains and heroes to enter a long-term alliance. But obviously its not like everyone just automatically gets along with each other, the alliance only works as long as everyone plays ball and every villain is on a precarious position. Sinister is only brought in because they need his clone science tech and everyone makes it clear they despise his guts.

The problem is that the villains are still evil and they get away with it, Selene was actually killing people in Captain America comics at the time, and it was being ignored lol.

Krakoa has a bunch of disgustingly evil people that they're okay with it, and while Sinister makes some sense (Even though putting him as one of the rules of Krakoa is really dumb), characters like Mystique, Apocalypse, Selene, Cassandra Nova, not as much lol.

Ivy though is a bizarre case of the author retconning the whole thing cause he got horribly harassed by Ivy stans. King was getting death threats and **** so he he retconned Ivy killing people and wrote the "everyone loves Ivy" arc so Ivy fans can get the Hell off his back. Which is a really sad and fucked up thing.

If true it's not like what Tom King did was much better, the story pretends that brainwashing the entire planet into being her puppets is as a thing she can get away with because, she had good intentions... Yeah, it's not like the road to hell is paved by good intentions or anythin'...

I still theorize that the stans who harassed King were actually Harley-stans who got pissed because Ivy being a killer messes with their fantasy of Ivy being a saint because they regard Ivy as nothing more than a prize-wife for Harley so she can have the bestest most perfect life that "she deserves"

If your theory is right then I have even less reasons to respect shipping mentality, and I already don't respect it lol.

Eddie is a pretty fun case cause he goes back and forth on this. He was a villain, then a brutal anti-hero, back into a villain, is a sort of hero as Anti-Venom though he's batshit insane there, is a villain then a hero-ish as Toxin, and finally after getting Venom back he's seriously striving to be a decent man.

Yeah, he has his own issues with this, and while him changing sides like you mentioned are just writers making him change sides because they prefer one over the other, it does make some sense of an evil man like him to relapse while trying to do better.

I still have my issues with it though, but at least he was treated like a pest for a while until others became more okay with him.

I don't really like the stuff Cates did though, he retconned away the cancer as not being a thing ever because the symbiote gave him fake memories of relatives who got cancer, which's ridiculous and makes Eddie into a poor lil' victim of the symbiote, instead of, y'know, a bad person and a bad symbiote teaming up because they're both assholes.

You could even make a point that the symbiote and Eddie being together back then brought each other's worst traits since they enable each other, and that kinda gets ruined with Eddie only being a victim lol.

At least later issues have Eddie thinking that he's not just a victim and he may have fucked up with the symbiote:



(Venom#14 vol 4).

And while this tie-in issue wasn't written by Cates, later on after Cates returns, Eddie does consider the possibility:





(Venom#16 vol 4).

So at least after a while Cates was willing to at least mention that Eddie isn't just the symbiote's victim, but, the dumb retcon about the symbiote altering his memories and making his body have cancer are still there lol.

I also didn't like the retcon of Eddie's father being the abusive kind who beats up Eddie, that's just generic, Venom: Lethal Protector said that Eddie's father just, ignored Eddie's existence, and I find that more interesting, parental abuse have way more ways to happen than just violence.

[K7P5V]

^^^Sounds interesting. Wasn't it later revealed that Deadpool was the one who corrupted the symbiote on Battleworld during Secret Wars '84?

Or has that been understandably retconned?!?

[Lukmendes]

^^^Sounds interesting. Wasn't it later revealed that Deadpool was the one who corrupted the symbiote on Battleworld during Secret Wars '84?

Or has that been understandably retconned?!?

Cates doesn't consider it canon, but apparently other people do, which apparently caused twitter arguments between him and others creators who do consider it canon lol.

Discussions about whether or not it's canon actually gets a joke mention in Absolute Carnage:



(Absolute Carnage vs Deadpool#2).

[Mantis-Ray]

I agree with Cates there, while the inserting Deadpool in past event stories are fun they shouldn't actually be canon or treated seriously.

Like I fee Wade being the first host not Peter and that it was his insanity that turned the symbiote itself mad trivializes a lot of things about the characters.

[Lukmendes]

I agree with Cates there, while the inserting Deadpool in past event stories are fun they shouldn't actually be canon or treated seriously.

Like I fee Wade being the first host not Peter and that it was his insanity that turned the symbiote itself mad trivializes a lot of things about the characters.

Yeah the whole idea of Deadpool's Secret Wars being canon is silly as is, but implying that him using the symbiote for only like, a minute, damaged the symbiote's mind that much is just bad, considering that it being rejected by Spidey, and then bonding with someone as crazy as Eddie would screw over the symbiote's mind.

Ironically enough, Cates removings Deadpool's Secret Wars is "compensated" by Knull's existence, the way he's used to explains why the symbiotes are weak to fire and sonics are just bad, instead of those two being specific weak points caused by the symbiotes' biology, it's actually caused by a dumb, ancient memory of when Knull created the symbiotes, with the sonics reminding them of the hammer, and fire reminding them of the fire from the forge... Just, why lol.

[Huntsman Spider]

Yeah the whole idea of Deadpool's Secret Wars being canon is silly as is, but implying that him using the symbiote for only like, a minute, damaged the symbiote's mind that much is just bad, considering that it being rejected by Spidey, and then bonding with someone as crazy as Eddie would screw over the symbiote's mind.

Ironically enough, Cates removings Deadpool's Secret Wars is "compensated" by Knull's existence, the way he's used to explains why the symbiotes are weak to fire and sonics are just bad, instead of those two being specific weak points caused by the symbiotes' biology, it's actually caused by a dumb, ancient memory of when Knull created the symbiotes, with the sonics reminding them of the hammer, and fire reminding them of the fire from the forge... Just, why lol.

Technically, that was just the memory of the first symbiote, All-Black the Necrosword, embedded in the genetic memory of the collective symbiote hive, which in retrospect would explain how and why the Necrosword could empower a formerly mere mortal into a literal God-Butcher, as well as the corrosive effects on that mortal's sanity.

[Lukmendes]

Technically, that was just the memory of the first symbiote, All-Black the Necrosword, embedded in the genetic memory of the collective symbiote hive,

It still shouldn't affect every symbiote ever, specially the ones who aren't part of the hivemind and were born not connected with it, plus Knull doesn't even mention a hive mind and just says "the weaker of my creations carry the scars of their progenitor's birth inside of them", doesn't say it's related to a hive mind.

Nor should symbiotes collectively have PTSD over that, it's just silly.

It gets worse when Knull says that back then, when he was making symbiotes, he said he wasn't that good yet, that by itself could be used to explain why the usual symbiote weak points are there, but the symbiote dragons lack 'em once Knull improved, but Cates just had to say it was some ancient PTSD lol.

I'd be more okay with it if Knull overall didn't feel as suffocating about what he was doing with symbiotes, or if he was an interesting character, but he wasn't either one, and he certainly looks worse when compared with TOBA in Immortal Hulk, since they both retcon stuff related to these characters by being the cosmic force behind them, but Knull is behind everything symbiote while TOBA is the explanation of the more supernatural angle Gamma radiation has, it felt like it expanded Gamma radiation stuff while Knull actively suffocated the symbiotes.

which in retrospect would explain how and why the Necrosword could empower a formerly mere mortal into a literal God-Butcher, as well as the corrosive effects on that mortal's sanity.

I don't know that much about Necrosword so I can't comment on how well the retcon works with Thor's stuff, I just find it silly that Knull is behind the usual symbiote weakness in such a goofy way.

[Mantis-Ray]

Thinking about Venomverse, this dumb line from Gwenpool where she basically calls Eddie the generic guy of the Venoms

She specifically refers to him as "sort of a plain Jane" and "the boring friend who gets invited to the party out of pity"

Really Gwen, you're gonna go there? Its not plain, the right term is classic, the perfect mix of sleekness and simplicity in design. Everyone else though looks fucking ridiculous.

I mean Rocket Raccoon Venom, its a stupid as Hell composite character like something Jason Aaron would come up with



Or X-23 and Old Man Logan Venoms. Do you have any idea how redundant a concept that is? The symbiote already has claws and regen factor, the Wolverine's add nothing to the mix. And thats ignoring how flat-out hideous Logan Venom is.



And of course Gwen herself is one to talk, she looks like an idiot.