MCU Wanda and DC Flash vs One Punch Man

[Captain Morgan]

Certain versions of Flash could just toss him into the speedforce far, far faster than even he could manage to deal with (there are versions of the Flash to which Saitama's best feats are still Way Too Slow™), but I'm not sure if that's an option here - can current Flash pull that off?

Doesn't matter about current if he specified speed stealing Flash. Pretty sure that means Wally. Don't think Barry ever learned that power.

So yeah, speed steal, dimension dumps, or speeding up Wanda for the win, unless Saitama can no sell these esoterics. (Which is conjecture but not outrageous for his character.)

[Sharpandpointies]

I can see the argument about the speed steal being something he could resist.

My issue with Saitama resisting a dimension dump is that it's not what we would consider an esoteric (transmutation, mental assaults, attacks on the soul, whatever non-physical thing we can find that requires something more than just 'is really tough' to bounce).

It's a ring-out. We're not trying to change anything about Saitama, he has just been moved 'somewhere else' from where he cannot return.

While I'm cool with the argument of 'Saitama can continue to improve to shrug off various esoteric attacks, and really quickly' (depending on the attack, the power of the being compared to where his power sits right now, etc - there are things to consider, it's shouldn't be a blanket 'resists everything'), that's rather different from 'Saitama can improve to...what, ignore actually being in a different place'.

That doesn't make sense to me - Wally tosses him in the speedforce faster than Saitama can react, and Saitama says 'No, you can't actually move me into the speedforce because I evolved past being moved somewhere'? That just feels off.

I guess one MIGHT be able to argue he does that in the same way he ignores immensely powerful PK, but then we get into the burden of proof showing he can do that (ie, 'evolve' or whatever we call it) against Wally when Wally is going at his best speed, ie orders and orders of magnitude faster than anything Saitama has achieved, even at his highest level. And do that before Wally moves a million times faster than Saitama has ever moved and tosses him into the speedforce.

Thoughts?

Edit: Just as an aside, Saitama needs to actually carefully observe Garou's technique (the one Garou says he never actually mastered) to go back in time, so....

1. He doesn't seem to have any natural ability to do so or to evolve to 'fix' the situation, so I'm unsure how one might argue he evolves to come back from a dimension dump;
2. He's not going to be able to copy Wally's technique unless people manage to find feats of him instantly evolving to match the speed of someone who is a million+ times faster than himself (ie, so he can actually SEE what Wally does to toss him in the speedforce, assuming he can actually even copy that kind of speedforce trick).

[Captain Morgan]

What makes it strange is Saitama seems to have a weird subconscious safeguard against ring outs. He doesn't shut down Tornado's TK until she tries to space toss him in the comic. And he just so happened to fart at a point that propelled him back towards Garou's gate/Earth. Or the one hit from Boros that launched him out of the atmosphere letting him hit the moon. And he wasn't consciously aware of any of this.

He got punted some distance away by the Gamma Burst, and he and Garou launched themselves to Jupiter... But in both cases he was able to come back eventually. I dunno.

[Sharpandpointies]

My question would be 'how much of that is comedy/author just writing it that way and how much of that is Saitama DOING something subconsciously?'

The fart thing feels like a gag - comic has a fair amount of bathroom/sex gags. Viable feat regarding what it does? Sure - him being propelled at ridiculous speed by breaking wind is dumb, but given his current level of power and what his sneeze does, okay. But the comic states he gets started by 'the flash' of Garou's technique, nothing more, and just loses control of the fart he states he has been holding in for some time. It's not like he just conjured a superpowered fart up out of nowhere to deal with the need to go through a wormhole.

The hit from Boros that made him ram into the moon - unless we're sporting him the ability to fly back then to make sure he hit the moon (and it would have already have needed to be somewhat in-line with his flight path, especially since he literally jumped straight back to where he started without needing to orbit or anything), or to somehow PK the moon into the way, that's just blind luck and the writer wanting to show him taking a hit that sends him to the moon, it doing nothing, and him wrecking the moon when jumping back. It doesn't at all feel like a 'feat against ring-out'.

The PK thing with Tornado, I'll give you that. And I mentioned it, above.

If I had to suspect a source for his safeguard against ring-outs, I would say 'It's the writer.' ^_^

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I guess my argument against being trapped in the Speedforce overlong is, that he'd be able to punch his way out, if he's able to manipulate wormholes physically, no?

[Sharpandpointies]

I guess my argument against being trapped in the Speedforce overlong is, that he'd be able to punch his way out, if he's able to manipulate wormholes physically, no?

I can see that being a valid argument to at least attempt. Certainly he has TIME once he's in the Speedforce - it's a ring-out, not a 10-count.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

I suppose it depends too on whether or not Wally doing something like yeeting him to the heat death of the Universe would ring Wally out as well.

If he can only chuck him into it and hope the Speedforce handles the rest? I feel like, based on Saitama's particular kit, that goes poorly.

Unless I'm missing something somewhere that prevents Saitama from matching speed of an opponent, which, after being chucked into the Speedforce, would mean the Speedforce itself, is his opponent.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

As an aside, I'm not the biggest fan of this.

Saitama worked better as Strong Dude Who is Too Strong™. H/P Doomstama is kinda boring.

[Nik Hasta]

I guess my argument against being trapped in the Speedforce overlong is, that he'd be able to punch his way out, if he's able to manipulate wormholes physically, no?

He did punch into a psychic plane that one time, I feel like I could believe him punching out of the Speedforce.

Don't know if I'd go far enough to make that argument in a Rumbles context but there's not no precedent for it.

[Captain Morgan]

Saitama went from being a bad character for rumbles because the upper limits to his powers were unestablished, to being bad for rumbles because what even his powers are anymore isn't established. Yaaaay Sentry.

My question would be 'how much of that is comedy/author just writing it that way and how much of that is Saitama DOING something subconsciously?'

The fart thing feels like a gag - comic has a fair amount of bathroom/sex gags. Viable feat regarding what it does? Sure - him being propelled at ridiculous speed by breaking wind is dumb, but given his current level of power and what his sneeze does, okay. But the comic states he gets started by 'the flash' of Garou's technique, nothing more, and just loses control of the fart he states he has been holding in for some time. It's not like he just conjured a superpowered fart up out of nowhere to deal with the need to go through a wormhole.

The hit from Boros that made him ram into the moon - unless we're sporting him the ability to fly back then to make sure he hit the moon (and it would have already have needed to be somewhat in-line with his flight path, especially since he literally jumped straight back to where he started without needing to orbit or anything), or to somehow PK the moon into the way, that's just blind luck and the writer wanting to show him taking a hit that sends him to the moon, it doing nothing, and him wrecking the moon when jumping back. It doesn't at all feel like a 'feat against ring-out'.

The PK thing with Tornado, I'll give you that. And I mentioned it, above.

If I had to suspect a source for his safeguard against ring-outs, I would say 'It's the writer.' ^_^

He also exerted subatomic control subconsciously by watching 30 seconds of Tai Chi poses. And for all he bemoans exploding monsters by accident with one punch, he also regularly knocks out normal humans instead of killing them. Or how he shattered that astroid so that the city was wrecked but no one died. One of the motifs of the story is that Saitama seems to be in a lot more control of his outcomes than his internal monologue would suggest.

[Sharpandpointies]

Due to the problem with your first point (before quoting me), I'm finding it hard to make an answer for the second point (after quoting me). ^_^

I'm going to probably leave it there, without further feats coming up. Regardless, it seems like a bit of an uphill battle for Wally if Saitama can A - come back from dimension dumping (seems likely, though not 100%) and B - shrug off the speed steal (seems even more likely). I would thing the best possible result for Wally would be to Speedforce dump Saitama, get Wanda 'up to speed', and then hope they can both take out Saitama when he returns.

Barring that, odds seem poor (and not saying they look all that great even with that idea).

[Slade1]

I suppose it depends too on whether or not Wally doing something like yeeting him to the heat death of the Universe would ring Wally out as well.

If he can only chuck him into it and hope the Speedforce handles the rest? I feel like, based on Saitama's particular kit, that goes poorly.

Unless I'm missing something somewhere that prevents Saitama from matching speed of an opponent, which, after being chucked into the Speedforce, would mean the Speedforce itself, is his opponent.

Since there are two opponents here, if Wally literally grabbed Saitama and took him to the end of time, he would ring himself out but Wanda wouldn't. That would give the duo the win.

[Captain Morgan]

Since there are two opponents here, if Wally literally grabbed Saitama and took him to the end of time, he would ring himself out but Wanda wouldn't. That would give the duo the win.

Assuming Saitama doesn't remember he can travel through time, of course.

[Slade1]

Assuming Saitama doesn't remember he can travel through time, of course.

Not if he gets thrown into the big bang.

[Nik Hasta]

Assuming Saitama doesn't remember he can travel through time, of course.

Canonically, he doesn't.