Phil Jimenez’s Wonder Woman Was the Amazon’s Most Underrated Run

[caj]

Agree or disagree?

https://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-phi...underrated-dc/

My only issue with that run was the death of Hipollyta. I was really enjoying her in JSA and was shocked and disappointed when she died during Our Worlds At War.

Now, whether that was a Jimenez decision or someone higher up, I don't know.

But the art was spectacular and I enjoyed Donna Troy being in the book.

[Gaius]

Hippolyta's death was a mandate from DC editorial for the OWAW storyline, Jimenez didn't want to do it as he had plans for exploring the mother/daughter relationship in his run. The concession he was able to get was that Hippolyta death happened in WW's book and not the main OWAW/Superman books.

Whether it's the most underrated I guess depends on who you talk to. I'd say WML's is probably more underrated in that I rarely see people actually talk about it beyond the Artemis storyline and Taco Wiz but I'd also say I prefer Jimenez's run over Loebs'.

[Alpha]

William Messner Loebs' is underrated in how well it characterized Diana.

Eric Luke is underrated in how well he built up her villains

Phil Jimenez is underrated in how much he advanced Diana's universe only to have Greg Rucka destroy the greatest contribution which was the sky islands, the most advanced place on earth, that functioned as a place for people to come and share knowledge.

Land of the Lost is a great starting point for a Wonder Woman movie, as long as it isn't the first one of the new series.

Steve Orlando was super underated in every department

[bardkeep]

Agree or disagree?

https://www.cbr.com/wonder-woman-phi...underrated-dc/

My only issue with that run was the death of Hipollyta. I was really enjoying her in JSA and was shocked and disappointed when she died during Our Worlds At War.

Now, whether that was a Jimenez decision or someone higher up, I don't know.

But the art was spectacular and I enjoyed Donna Troy being in the book.

Killing off Hippolyta was very much not Phil Jimenez's choice. He actually had a 12-issue plan that was almost entirely centered on Diana's relationship with Hippolyta and was totally blindsided when editorial told him they were gonna kill her off for a big crossover event. The worst part is that they were going to kill her off in Superman's book - Phil had to fight for his life just to convince editorial to let him kill off Hippolyta in her own series.

I'd half-agree with his run being the most underrated, though. Outside of the fandom, maybe, but I think among fans it's pretty appropriately rated and he's certainly one of her most iconic artists. With modern writers on the main book it's kinda Perez, Rucka, and everyone else, but I think in terms of general popularity Gail Simone and Phil come right after them.

From a plotting and pacing perspective it was definitely messy, and the fact that he loved the character so much honestly worked to his detriment at times. He really wanted to throw in everything but the kitchen sink and stick super closely with continuity, but all of that added a lot of bloat that made it slightly hard to follow at times. Still, he did such a great job with the characters, and I really like how he took some of the questionable choices writers before him made and explored the emotional consequences. Turning John Byrne's choice to toss the Kapatelises in favor of the Sandsmarks into a tragedy for Vanessa was really clever (even though poor Vanessa has just perpetually suffered since then...) and I love that the "Hippolyta was WW2 Wonder Woman" thing became a major source of tension between her and Diana.

I also love that he really emphasized the Wonder-fam, and made their personalities and relationships feel very real and organic. Her being surrounded by women she's tight with is a core element of the character that too many writers forget (even great ones!). And the Donna-Diana relationship was definitely a major highlight, gave me warm fuzzies because it reminded me so much of my relationship with my sister.

Steve Orlando was super underated in every department

I agree, Orlando is really underrated. He clearly knows and adores the character and he writes a great Diana, though I feel like because he was so passionate about it he ran into some of the same issues as Jimenez and tried to cram too much into his very limited time. Would still love to see him do a full, proper run instead of fill-ins.

[Gaius]

Killing off Hippolyta was very much not Phil Jimenez's choice. He actually had a 12-issue plan that was almost entirely centered on Diana's relationship with Hippolyta and was totally blindsided when editorial told him they were gonna kill her off for a big crossover event. The worst part is that they were going to kill her off in Superman's book - Phil had to fight for his life just to convince editorial to let him kill off Hippolyta in her own series.

I'd half-agree with his run being the most underrated, though. Outside of the fandom, maybe, but I think among fans it's pretty appropriately rated and he's certainly one of her most iconic artists. With modern writers on the main book it's kinda Perez, Rucka, and everyone else, but I think in terms of general popularity Gail Simone and Phil come right after them.

From a plotting and pacing perspective it was definitely messy, and the fact that he loved the character so much honestly worked to his detriment at times. He really wanted to throw in everything but the kitchen sink and stick super closely with continuity, but all of that added a lot of bloat that made it slightly hard to follow at times. Still, he did such a great job with the characters, and I really like how he took some of the questionable choices writers before him made and explored the emotional consequences. Turning John Byrne's choice to toss the Kapatelises in favor of the Sandsmarks into a tragedy for Vanessa was really clever (even though poor Vanessa has just perpetually suffered since then...) and I love that the "Hippolyta was WW2 Wonder Woman" thing became a major source of tension between her and Diana.

I also love that he really emphasized the Wonder-fam, and made their personalities and relationships feel very real and organic. Her being surrounded by women she's tight with is a core element of the character that too many writers forget (even great ones!). And the Donna-Diana relationship was definitely a major highlight, gave me warm fuzzies because it reminded me so much of my relationship with my sister.

Yeah, much as like the original Vanessa Silver Swan storyline, it's unfortunate it's become the main legacy that future writers want to do with Vanessa and Julia and to lesser results each time.

[HestiasHearth]

The art was super pretty. The writing? Eh. Not so much, but I liked many of the super nerdy premises that Jimenez concocted, like fusing Diana's and Joker's villains into amalgams, and Diana leading an all-superheroine army against an all-supervillainess army led by Circe.

[Dr. Poison]

I totally agree. Phil's run is still my favorite Wonder Woman run of all time. He did a great job of touching various aspects & characters from Diana's history including Cheetah, Dr. Poison, Giganta, Queen Clea, Donna Troy, Cassie Sandsmark, Hippolyta, the JSA, the JLA, Villainy Inc. and many more of Diana's friends & foes. His Circe was the best interpretation of the character ever. Such a boss @$$ b_tch. Plus his A-level art for a few years was the icing on the cake.

[Sebastianne]

I like his ideas but not his execution, especially some dialogues. The use of the wonderfamily is appreciated despite the boring role he gave to Philipus and Artemis. I don't think it's in my top 3 post COIE writers.

[bardkeep]

I totally agree. Phil's run is still my favorite Wonder Woman run of all time. He did a great job of touching various aspects & characters from Diana's history including Cheetah, Dr. Poison, Giganta, Queen Clea, Donna Troy, Cassie Sandsmark, Hippolyta, the JSA, the JLA, Villainy Inc. and many more of Diana's friends & foes. His Circe was the best interpretation of the character ever. Such a boss @$$ b_tch. Plus his A-level art for a few years was the icing on the cake.

Jimenez's Circe is for sure still numero uno. And all of her outfits were bangers.

I like his ideas but not his execution, especially some dialogues. The use of the wonderfamily is appreciated despite the boring role he gave to Philipus and Artemis. I don't think it's in my top 3 post COIE writers.

Yeah, the dialogue was definitely a weak point. Curious to know your top 3 COIE writers, though.

[Dr. Poison]

I like his ideas but not his execution, especially some dialogues. The use of the wonderfamily is appreciated despite the boring role he gave to Philipus and Artemis. I don't think it's in my top 3 post COIE writers.

I can agree that the dialogue could have been better but I believe this was Phil's first major writing gig so I didn't expect perfection.

[Koriand'r]

William Messner Loebs' is underrated in how well it characterized Diana.

Eric Luke is underrated in how well he built up her villains

Phil Jimenez is underrated in how much he advanced Diana's universe only to have Greg Rucka destroy the greatest contribution which was the sky islands, the most advanced place on earth, that functioned as a place for people to come and share knowledge.

Land of the Lost is a great starting point for a Wonder Woman movie, as long as it isn't the first one of the new series.

Steve Orlando was super underated in every department

I didn't like that part though. The island itself was perfect and beautiful but Themyscira is for women. The men and aliens destroyed the concept and made it too open, accessible and potentially vulnerable.

[Sebastianne]

Yeah, the dialogue was definitely a weak point. Curious to know your top 3 COIE writers, though.

It's hard to say even for me, George Perez is hands down my favorite writer. I deeply love his run, and even if it's not perfect, it's perfect for me.
Then without any apparent order, Messner Loebs is the one I read the most times, I really like the way he writes and the situations he put Diana in, my only criticism is the little use of the characters established by Perez, even so I love Juliana Sazia, The White Magician, Donna Milton and Ares Buchanan, Diana lost in space and thank you very much for Artemis.
I also like Greg Rucka a lot, but some story arcs, the start of his run, Medusa and all the conflict with the gods. I also really liked how he built the 25 issues of Rebirth even though I'm not a fan of his Year One.
Gail Simone seems fantastic to me, especially how she builds the stories, although her endings are always rushed, she always gave me the feeling that she is not interested in ending her stories with the forcefulness with which she begins and develops them.
I also really like the run of Erik Luke and Steve Orlando. And Cloonrad are among my favorites too.
Now I'm gathering strength to reread G Willow Wilson and Byrne's run.

[caj]

It's hard to say even for me, George Perez is hands down my favorite writer. I deeply love his run, and even if it's not perfect, it's perfect for me.
Then without any apparent order, Messner Loebs is the one I read the most times, I really like the way he writes and the situations he put Diana in, my only criticism is the little use of the characters established by Perez, even so I love Juliana Sazia, The White Magician, Donna Milton and Ares Buchanan, Diana lost in space and thank you very much for Artemis.
I also like Greg Rucka a lot, but some story arcs, the start of his run, Medusa and all the conflict with the gods. I also really liked how he built the 25 issues of Rebirth even though I'm not a fan of his Year One.
Gail Simone seems fantastic to me, especially how she builds the stories, although her endings are always rushed, she always gave me the feeling that she is not interested in ending her stories with the forcefulness with which she begins and develops them.
I also really like the run of Erik Luke and Steve Orlando. And Cloonrad are among my favorites too.
Now I'm gathering strength to reread G Willow Wilson and Byrne's run.

If nothing else, you have provided me with an excellent rundown on WW post COIE history. Thanks so much!!! I really appreciate it.

[WonderScott]

Jimenez’s run was particularly great for all the Wonder elements he used and how he used them within different elements of the broader DCU. He produced a lot of fun, memorable stories and poignant moments: Gods of Gotham, The Witch and the Warrior, getting a version of Villainy Inc back together, a day in the life with Lois Lane, Hippolyta’s death in OWAW, a Wonder Woman versus Superman throw down, beating Darkseid with her soul.

He accomplished more than others and did it during an ugly time. September 11 had happened (IIRC he had to change part of his Wonder Woman and Superman story because of it), online interaction was increasing and these very message boards saw a lot of sexual orientation discrimination and queer discrimination being posted at him (some overt and some thinly-veiled - I was here at the time), and who knows if or how much editorial was messing with him and his plans.

I try not to take the context of the times out of a creative’s run. That’s not to absolve anything heinous (it could also be to celebrate something forward-thinking), but it helps understand the run.

[bat22]

I didn't like that part though. The island itself was perfect and beautiful but Themyscira is for women. The men and aliens destroyed the concept and made it too open, accessible and potentially vulnerable.

But what if those men and male aliens identified as female? Rhetorical question. Don't answer.