Tifa vs Bane

[Muadib]

That would be at least somewhat sensible.

The following is my own opinion, so mileage may vary.

I'm totally not against Bane getting a boost. Getting a BIG boost. Bane's thing is his physicality (yes, he's brilliant, but let's face it, everything always boils down to a fight with him), and having Bruce be able to beat him up (with effort) really takes away from his use as a Batman antagonist.

But I feel there's a right way for this, a way that'll make sense and make it stick. <-- Again, my opinion here.

Bane has always come off as making Batman work because he's so...damn...strong and tough. Consider that Bruce is less-strong and less-tough than Bane, and yet basically beats him all the time, now (Bane makes him work, but Bruce wins). It means Bane is somewhere below A-list in skill - he has a couple of advantages over Bruce due to his power, but Bruce wins...because skill. And maybe speed, which partly comes from his training/skill.

So for Bane to go from 'Below A-list' to 'skilled enough to beat the top people' (I'm not talking about David Cain, who doesn't exist in DC any more due to being dead and a completely different character when he was alive, I'm talking Shiva), that's a huge jump, because BRUCE isn't on the same level as Shiva.

Then Bane would just get beaten by Batman again. Which wouldn't make sense, and just have people shrugging and ignoring his win over Shiva (somewhat rightfully). Having him take a win against Shiva then losing again to Bruce (because let's face it, they're not going to just allow Bane to be 'better than the Bat') is somewhat nonsensical, especially since Shiva has flat-out treated Bruce like garbage in NuDC.

But if Bane somehow trains under some luminary, gets good, seeks out Bruce, and conclusively beats him down after a hard fight showcasing how his skill and speed have improved...that might make sense.

And the top fighters shouldn't just be used as stepladders for other fighters to showcase their skill. Shiva is the top fighter in NuDC - if everyone beats her to show they've improved, what does that make her? Look to how this was handled with Connor Hawke, back in the day - Shiva versus Connor Hawke wasn't 'Connor wins, he's awesome!', it was 'Connor LOSES, but he actually manages to make Shiva work, breaks some of her ribs, all done on a day when Shiva one-shots Nightwing while simultaneously cutting arrows out of the air with her other hand. Shiva gives him mad props for all of this. Clearly, he's fantastically good'.

That was more than enough to cement Connor as one of the top fighters without doing what everyone now would refer to as 'Worfing' Shiva.

As a fighter, Bane is below Batman. As a fighter, Batman is below the top fighters. For me, it's just too much to have Bane just jump to where he can take on the top-tiers.

I feel a good way to showcase Bane would have him improve to the point where Bruce absolutely needs to rely on using various bits of equipment to win a fight with him, where in straight-up hand to hand, Bruce loses a majority because Bane is roughly as skilled as him, roughly as fast as him, but stronger and tougher (this would be a big deal).

Then somehow get DC to acknowledge that this is where Bane officially 'sits' on the ladder of fighters, make it his base presentation and consistent rather than a one-off in a mini-series that gets contradicted by everything before and after that mini-series (which would suck, and not leave Bane-fans very happy).

THEN we start talking about how Bane can work his way up further.

I mean, you're right - poor Bane. There's a reason he and Croc are the saddest people on Rumbles. DC really needs to allow some more people who can push Batman beyond his limits, that he CAN'T just count on beat in a hand-to-hand fight who don't have the excuse of 'metahuman'. Bane would be a great character for that, and yet...nope.

Some excellent points and food for thought.

As for my feelings on the matter, i dont believe that the gap between Shiva and Batman, or anyone in that S-Tier of martial artists in the DCU should be that huge, but thats another discussion and ties into my disagreement with decisions made by DC editorial past and present on the presentation of Shiva, Richard Dragon, and David and Cassandra Cain.

[Sharpandpointies]

Some excellent points and food for thought.

As for my feelings on the matter, i dont believe that the gap between Shiva and Batman, or anyone in that S-Tier of martial artists in the DCU should be that huge, but thats another discussion and ties into my disagreement with decisions made by DC editorial past and present on the presentation of Shiva, Richard Dragon, and David and Cassandra Cain.

That's fair.

I tend to be semi-okay with how things are between the top tiers and Batman (or Original Cain, who I regard as Bruce's functional equal, not his better) for the simple reason that while ALL of them are basically savants at this kind of thing, people like Dragon, Shiva, and Cass have spent their entire lives focusing on this one particular aspect of being (and possibly are more genetically inclined towards this kind of thing to boot, in a comic-booky way), while Bruce and Cain have spent a lot of time learning this...but not nearly as much as Dragon, Shiva, and Cass because they've broadened their focus to all sorts of other things.

Bruce is a polyglot (like, often presented as literally speaking more than a dozen languages), highly skilled forensic scientist, an engineer (in different fields), a classical scientist (in different fields), keeps up to date on the geo-political situation, can drive or fly pretty much anything, tactical knowledge and experience, strategic knowledge and experience, etc, etc. Plus a martial artist. Original Cain isn't quite as broad in skillset, but he knows a lot about a lot of things, can prep well enough to fool Bruce, breaks into the Batcave using 'Solid light systems', etc.

Shiva? Cass? Dragon? Sorry, no time to learn most of that, we're practicing fighting. ^_^ Plus Shiva and Dragon have been trained by O-Sensei (who was 150 years old when he 'decided it was time to die'), which might explain why they're the only martial artists in DC who do stuff like 'Fight by echolocation' and 'use Ki to bring people back to life/heal them' (twice now for Shiva). Cass? Part of a eugenics attempt to create the perfect fighter, and went through training that made Bruce's look...well, not EASY but far less intensive, starting when she was 2-3 years old. <-- ridiculous, but it's comics, whaddyado?

I'm pretty happy with there being a fair gap between the 'almost completely focused on hitting stuff' group and the 'I need a really big skillset, but also to be good at hitting stuff' group. Not a 'treat Bruce like utter trash' gap, mind, that's a little much.

But mileage may vary, as you note!

[Cody]

Now if this were Injustice Bane it probably be a bit of a fight since he'd have that super pill juice going through him.

[Rightoya]

How does anyone achieve things in the DCU when it comes to Martial Arts?

A Training MOOOONTAAAAAAGE! (Cue Team America "Montage" single)

Some time training on a mountain would do him good. Maybe under O-sensei, or I-Ching ,or Vandal Savage can give him a few pointers since i see they are giving Vandal a Martial Arts push thru Black Adam's recent defeat of Batman.

Wait, Black Adam needing the help of Vandal Savage just to beat up Batman sounds less like a great martial arts feat of Vandal Savage and more like a total disrespect of Black Adam, is Christoper Priest continuing his tradition of making mythological superheroes look absolutely pathetic like with Thor and especially Wonder Woman or did that happen outside of his series?

[Rightoya]

Now if this were Injustice Bane it probably be a bit of a fight since he'd have that super pill juice going through him.

I think that would just turn it around, Tifa is much stronger than Bane, but not super pill levels strong.

[Captain Morgan]

Wait, Black Adam needing the help of Vandal Savage just to beat up Batman sounds less like a great martial arts feat of Vandal Savage and more like a total disrespect of Black Adam, is Christoper Priest continuing his tradition of making mythological superheroes look absolutely pathetic like with Thor and especially Wonder Woman or did that happen outside of his series?

Quite the opposite. A depowered Adam beat the hell out of Bruce.

[Sharpandpointies]

Quite the opposite. A depowered Adam beat the hell out of Bruce.

...while pulling out a magical martial art that has never existed before in DC but was apparently created by Vandal Savage for other immortals because 'it's so complicated that only an immortal can master it'. That apparently Batman has heard about and gives him the willies when he sees Adam using it.

.....

Apparently complicated = good with a comic book martial art. -_-

Anyway, comics - even DC - have a thing with this sort of crap, so it's somewhat believable in a comic...though it's something that, as I understand, the character has never demonstrated in the past.

[Rightoya]

Quite the opposite. A depowered Adam beat the hell out of Bruce.

WAIT, WHAT? That sounds just crazy, even if it is just to promote the Black Adam movie, because DC has almost never promoted the movies in the comic like that, it is oddly specific, and at the expense of Batman.

...while pulling out a magical martial art that has never existed before in DC but was apparently created by Vandal Savage for other immortals because 'it's so complicated that only an immortal can master it'. That apparently Batman has heard about and gives him the willies when he sees Adam using it.

.....

Apparently complicated = good with a comic book martial art. -_-

Anyway, comics - even DC - have a thing with this sort of crap, so it's somewhat believable in a comic...though it's something that, as I understand, the character has never demonstrated in the past.

Yeah this sounds just crazy without other context, Black Adam has unlike Shazam not even a connection to skill with his empowerments, and his basically only skill feats were nearly all before Flashpoint and were more vague than even Rebirth Wonder Woman's are.

[Alan2099]

WAIT, WHAT? That sounds just crazy, even if it is just to promote the Black Adam movie, because DC has almost never promoted the movies in the comic like that, it is oddly specific, and at the expense of Batman.

Given how often DC abuses or neglects other characters in favor of Batman, I can't be upset that Batman got treated badly once.

[Sharpandpointies]

Yeah this sounds just crazy without other context, Black Adam has unlike Shazam not even a connection to skill with his empowerments, and his basically only skill feats were nearly all before Flashpoint and were more vague than even Rebirth Wonder Woman's are.

The context is 'Bruce baits him into fighting without his powers, and depowered Adam basically beats all hell out of him while Bruce swoons about awesome Teth-Adam's fighting system is and how Bruce, a guy just below the top tier martial artists, is in real trouble here'. It's not a curbstomp or anything, but Adam clearly has the upper hand through the fight.

Which Bruce attributes to his knowledge of whatever weird martial art developed by Vandal Savage that's too complex for non-immortals to master, and of which Adam IS clearly a master, having learned it at some point blahblahwhatever.

Given how often DC abuses or neglects other characters in favor of Batman, I can't be upset that Batman got treated badly once.

I'm not upset about Bruce getting his head booted. I'm just not a huge fan of jobbing in general, and given Adam has never actually been Lady Shiva on Super-Steroids, I figure that's what this is (possibly to give Adam a popularity boost for the upcoming movie).