Sins of Sinister a new Crossover coming January 2023

[Phoenixx9]

I'll be at New York Comic-Con and will provide you all with real time info. from the panel.

Yes, this would be most appreciated! Please and Thank You!

[JB]

I agree with Sibling...the QC as is needs to be disassembled and reformed entirely. Hopefully after Sinister is eradicated and Suck Fest is done.

Lol Suck Fest 2023.

A reworking of the QC after the twelfth Immortal is what I'm hoping for.

[Huntsman Spider]

There is no debating how useful Sinister is. To be fair, this whole 'Nazi's re really useful thing' is actually ripped from real life. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip. USA did the same thing in the Cold War...

And I happen to think him and Shaw are two of the best written and most fun characters of Immortal, so I love seeing him all the time. Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil (as well as Emma's Lawful Evil) are very much necessary in any story.

But in this Krakoa era I am continuously baffled how we (both X-writers and a large portion of the fandom) seem to just push aside the moral implications of the Mutants' choices, no matter how bad, that would be looked at so differently in any other context. The connection some people have to the Mutants (and likely their history of persecution) seems to transcend their normal morality, distrust of government, opposition to exploiting the masses, and sense of fairness. (Particularly the RR mindwipe, more than anything else. To me, that was straight up villain ****!) Personally, I find this reaction the most fascinating part of the Krakoa era.

Yeah, fair enough, though I'd think the argument from that vantage point would be that human societies/governments have cozied up with despicable individuals and groups for the sake of preserving and expanding their powerbase, both in-universe and in the real world, and within in-universe context, many of those alliances were sanctioned with the intent of striking at and eliminating mutants as an existential threat to that powerbase, so there's hardly anybody in said societies with any real "moral high ground" from which to condemn Krakoa's tactics and strategies for mutants' survival and advancement in the face of a collective human populace still largely hellbent on or otherwise willing to condone their extermination.

Maybe someone should do a poll to see what readers think, because it seems there's quite a few here that are into the idea of a potential coup led by Jean and Cyclops. Frankly, I'm down for it. I'm pro-Krakoa 7 days a week, twice on Wednesday, for everything it stands for. But a lot of the politics of it are indeed icky, and that's super fun.

Cosigned.

[Saithor]

Yeah, fair enough, though I'd think the argument from that vantage point would be that human societies/governments have cozied up with despicable individuals and groups for the sake of preserving and expanding their powerbase, both in-universe and in the real world, and within in-universe context, many of those alliances were sanctioned with the intent of striking at and eliminating mutants as an existential threat to that powerbase, so there's hardly anybody in said societies with any real "moral high ground" from which to condemn Krakoa's tactics and strategies for mutants' survival and advancement in the face of a collective human populace still largely hellbent on or otherwise willing to condone their extermination.

“Collective human populace”. I was going to argue this but I don’t think there’s any point to it anymore. Screw it.

All I’ll say is it’s fun that when the shoe is on the other foot judging the group by actions of an individual or relative minority within it has suddenly become extremely popular. Im not going to be as blunt or accusatory as others have been in defense of some of the things Krakoa has done.

[Ulysian_Thracs]

Yeah, fair enough, though I'd think the argument from that vantage point would be that human societies/governments have cozied up with despicable individuals and groups for the sake of preserving and expanding their powerbase, both in-universe and in the real world, and within in-universe context, many of those alliances were sanctioned with the intent of striking at and eliminating mutants as an existential threat to that powerbase, so there's hardly anybody in said societies with any real "moral high ground" from which to condemn Krakoa's tactics and strategies for mutants' survival and advancement in the face of a collective human populace still largely hellbent on or otherwise willing to condone their extermination.

You are not wrong in pointing this out. Humanity sucks, both in the real world and in Earth-616. But in this narrative the humans are very clearly not supposed to be the good guys. The Mutants are supposed to be the heroes, and instead at best they are as vile as the rest of humanity.

To me, it isn't about what Humanity of this world 'deserves' from Mutants. That is obviously nothing. I want to see my heroes actually be heroic and not lower themselves to the level of their enemies. Batman could've killed the Joker every single issue. But he is better than that, and it is what for all his darkness makes him a hero. Mutants are my favorite Marvel heroes over other Teams because they are downtrodden and oppressed and still act like heroes. For me, at least, you take that away and they're just some more superpowered guys and gals in flashy suits showing off their powers. I think in the Krakoan age especially the Mutants lost what made them special, and that is sad to me.

[Huntsman Spider]

“Collective human populace”. I was going to argue this but I don’t think there’s any point to it anymore. Screw it.

All I’ll say is it’s fun that when the shoe is on the other foot judging the group by actions of an individual or relative minority within it has suddenly become extremely popular. Im not going to be as blunt or accusatory as others have been in defense of some of the things Krakoa has done.

You are not wrong in pointing this out. Humanity sucks, both in the real world and in Earth-616. But in this narrative the humans are very clearly not supposed to be the good guys. The Mutants are supposed to be the heroes, and instead at best they are as vile as the rest of humanity.

To me, it isn't about what Humanity of this world 'deserves' from Mutants. That is obviously nothing. I want to see my heroes actually be heroic and not lower themselves to the level of their enemies. Batman could've killed the Joker every single issue. But he is better than that, and it is what for all his darkness makes him a hero. Mutants are my favorite Marvel heroes over other Teams because they are downtrodden and oppressed and still act like heroes. For me, at least, you take that away and they're just some more superpowered guys and gals in flashy suits showing off their powers. I think in the Krakoan age especially the Mutants lost what made them special, and that is sad to me.

Fair points, both of you. As for mine about the "collective human populace" and how mutants have been treated in the past and into the present, the issue for me is that there are people with power, status, and influence in human society who could have used that power, status, and influence to stand up more forcefully for mutants and their right to exist, long before the nation of Krakoa became a necessity for mutants to even survive, rather than simply standing idly by or offering ineffective platitudes or lukewarm sympathy as anti-mutant sentiment otherwise ran utterly unchecked, to the point of explicitly genocidal measures like the "X-Vaccine" from the last X-Men run pre-Hickman/HOXPOX being fast-tracked by the government, with almost no protests in opposition.

To wit, at some point in this whole thing, much like in the real world, it stops being so much about the most vocal and virulent forces spreading the kind of hate and fear that accompanies and rationalizes genocidal violence against a marginalized, demonized, and even criminalized people, and more about the masses who effectively condone what's being done in their name by refusing to stand up against it. Not to mention that mutants, as represented by or aligned with the X-Men, tried the more moral and heroic route for years/decades, to prove to humanity that mutants could be an asset to society instead of being treated as a wholesale threat, and each time, barring a few rare and temporary moments of coming together, they were met with rejection and suspicion that grew more violent and genocidal over time. Eventually, they had to realize they were playing a game that was rigged against them from the start, and to borrow a line from the computer in the movie WarGames: "The only winning move is not to play." That was what Krakoa, for all its ills and all its leadership's moral and ethical failings, represented --- mutants not playing by the rules of a rigged system anymore.

[Devaishwarya]

Excellent post Huntsman S.
Agreed, 100

[JB]

Great post indeed, Huntsman.

[Saithor]

Fair points, both of you. As for mine about the "collective human populace" and how mutants have been treated in the past and into the present, the issue for me is that there are people with power, status, and influence in human society who could have used that power, status, and influence to stand up more forcefully for mutants and their right to exist, long before the nation of Krakoa became a necessity for mutants to even survive, rather than simply standing idly by or offering ineffective platitudes or lukewarm sympathy as anti-mutant sentiment otherwise ran utterly unchecked, to the point of explicitly genocidal measures like the "X-Vaccine" from the last X-Men run pre-Hickman/HOXPOX being fast-tracked by the government, with almost no protests in opposition.

To wit, at some point in this whole thing, much like in the real world, it stops being so much about the most vocal and virulent forces spreading the kind of hate and fear that accompanies and rationalizes genocidal violence against a marginalized, demonized, and even criminalized people, and more about the masses who effectively condone what's being done in their name by refusing to stand up against it. Not to mention that mutants, as represented by or aligned with the X-Men, tried the more moral and heroic route for years/decades, to prove to humanity that mutants could be an asset to society instead of being treated as a wholesale threat, and each time, barring a few rare and temporary moments of coming together, they were met with rejection and suspicion that grew more violent and genocidal over time. Eventually, they had to realize they were playing a game that was rigged against them from the start, and to borrow a line from the computer in the movie WarGames: "The only winning move is not to play." That was what Krakoa, for all its ills and all its leadership's moral and ethical failings, represented --- mutants not playing by the rules of a rigged system anymore.

And that’s on Marvel for forcing that dilemma, unless we want to argue the same regression occurs in real life. And no, the rise of the far right is not analogous to marvel humans, this is entirely on the creative team and corporate at Marvel instead. They are the one who decided mutants never have any important human ally’s. That non-mutant superheroes either constantly fight mutants or don’t help them because the writers and editors choose they rather would have conflict than cooperation. And the reason is simple, because the X-men aren’t allowed to have a natural conclusion. They are a franchise, so they are not allowed a conclusion. So the race war is eternal. And frankly I find that messaging fucking repugnant, that there is no hope for a minority of everyone earning equal rights, that you cannot hope to ever get any part of the majority on your side, that things never improve, they instead still get worse, that the only solution is to willingly self-segregate yourselves and treat the rest of the world with fear. The X-men can’t become accepted by humans not because the human race is at its heart a hateful people who at best will just let other people get killed for no reason, they’ll never be accepted because Marvel comics wants your money. People want to reach and invent watsonian answers for what’s ultimately a doylist issue. Honestly the X-men should never have become a franchise comic property to begin with because the moment they did it ensured you would never see an end to the central conflict because Marvel cannot imagine them selling anywhere near as well without it.

That’s why I hate that attitude, and as a fan of more than just the X-men, I hate when it gets used as a weapon against any other marvel property.

[FluffyCyclopsRLZ]

That was what Krakoa, for all its ills and all its leadership's moral and ethical failings, represented --- mutants not playing by the rules of a rigged system anymore.

Kinda surprised/disappointed no one's joked about Marvel currently publishing stories in which they're trying to guilt-trip X-Fans into buying moar books starring characters who got away with screwing over mutantkind but are now being presented as those silly muties' saviors/bffs. Funny stuff.

Oh well. Anyway. Down with the Krakoan Supreme Cou... no, wait, the Supreme Everyth... I mean, the Council.

[Alpha]

And the reason is simple, because the X-men aren’t allowed to have a natural conclusion. They are a franchise, so they are not allowed a conclusion. So the race war is eternal. And frankly I find that messaging fucking repugnant, that there is no hope for a minority of everyone earning equal rights, that you cannot hope to ever get any part of the majority on your side, that things never improve, they instead still get worse, that the only solution is to willingly self-segregate yourselves and treat the rest of the world with fear.

That's because the only minority group that they should represent is the disabled community

[Huntsman Spider]

And that’s on Marvel for forcing that dilemma, unless we want to argue the same regression occurs in real life. And no, the rise of the far right is not analogous to marvel humans, this is entirely on the creative team and corporate at Marvel instead. They are the one who decided mutants never have any important human ally’s. That non-mutant superheroes either constantly fight mutants or don’t help them because the writers and editors choose they rather would have conflict than cooperation. And the reason is simple, because the X-men aren’t allowed to have a natural conclusion. They are a franchise, so they are not allowed a conclusion. So the race war is eternal. And frankly I find that messaging fucking repugnant, that there is no hope for a minority of everyone earning equal rights, that you cannot hope to ever get any part of the majority on your side, that things never improve, they instead still get worse, that the only solution is to willingly self-segregate yourselves and treat the rest of the world with fear. The X-men can’t become accepted by humans not because the human race is at its heart a hateful people who at best will just let other people get killed for no reason, they’ll never be accepted because Marvel comics wants your money. People want to reach and invent watsonian answers for what’s ultimately a doylist issue. Honestly the X-men should never have become a franchise comic property to begin with because the moment they did it ensured you would never see an end to the central conflict because Marvel cannot imagine them selling anywhere near as well without it.

That’s why I hate that attitude, and as a fan of more than just the X-men, I hate when it gets used as a weapon against any other marvel property.

Repugnant as it might be, that's the world Marvel Comics has crafted, at least with regard to mutants' place in it. You are right in the sense that maybe Marvel shouldn't have escalated the human-mutant conflict to the extremes that it's reached, or they should have done more to show a greater balance between humans or nonmutant superheroes that show solidarity with mutants vs. at best turning a blind eye and a deaf ear or at worst actively advocating for attempting genocide against mutants. Sadly, this is what Marvel as a business and creative entity has left us with when it comes to the mutants and their treatment by the world at large, and as an allegory for the real world, in which the forces of virulent hate and bigotry seem ascendant, not necessarily because of the actions of the worst, so much as the inaction of many of the rest, it is terrible and unfortunate, though not necessarily inaccurate.

That's because the only minority group that they should represent is the disabled community

Superpowers as an allegory for disability? Could be interesting, insofar as mutants in the Marvel Universe and disabled people in real life making the point that their unique abilities are integral parts of who they are and shouldn't be "cured" or erased to make them fit in with everyone else. That could work; even if the minority metaphor itself hasn't ever been perfect, the point still holds that demonizing, vilifying, and even criminalizing those who are different from the so-called "mainstream" of society leads nowhere good, for the marginalized or for society as a whole.

Kinda surprised/disappointed no one's joked about Marvel currently publishing stories in which they're trying to guilt-trip X-Fans into buying moar books starring characters who got away with screwing over mutantkind but are now being presented as those silly muties' saviors/bffs. Funny stuff.

Oh well. Anyway. Down with the Krakoan Supreme Cou... no, wait, the Supreme Everyth... I mean, the Council.

Yeah, I'm all for Krakoa, but at this point, the Quiet Council is not and has not been exactly acting for the better interests or greater good of mutants as a whole.

[FluffyCyclopsRLZ]

Yeah, I'm all for Krakoa, but at this point, the Quiet Council is not and has not been exactly acting for the better interests or greater good of mutants as a whole.

That, and the villainous representation is utterly bonkers. Yeah, yeah, I get it, rule of drama, planting seeds for future storyline and all that, but it makes approximately zero sense in-verse. Sinister, Mystique and Shaw are three of the most selfish, mistrusted mutants on the island. Doesn't matter which side of the fence, folks just don't trust these jerks and with good reason. Most mutant folks don't know much about Destiny, but since she's such a Mystique stan, the vast majority of them would be totally fine with her being summarily executed along with her lover. And yet these four are still around being part of the high level political process because Games of freakin' Thrones, yo.

[Huntsman Spider]

That, and the villainous representation is utterly bonkers. Yeah, yeah, I get it, rule of drama, planting seeds for future storyline and all that, but it makes approximately zero sense in-verse. Sinister, Mystique and Shaw are three of the most selfish, mistrusted mutants on the island. Doesn't matter which side of the fence, folks just don't trust these jerks and with good reason. Most mutant folks don't know much about Destiny, but since she's such a Mystique stan, the vast majority of them would be totally fine with her being summarily executed along with her lover. And yet these four are still around being part of the high level political process because Games of freakin' Thrones, yo.

Mystique occasionally gets a sympathetic angle, yeah, but Sinister and Shaw are both utterly self-serving scum with no regard for anything or anyone else outside their own ambitions or greed, and as such, they should never have been trusted with the kind of power they've since enjoyed through the Quiet Council. Shaw even twice went and bargained with the enemies of mutantkind for his own survival and advancement since joining Krakoa, so yeah, next time he dies --- preferably after getting discovered for the snake he is and always will be --- put him in the back of the resurrection line.

[Rift]

Actually, speaking of Sinister on the Council, the new Marauders issue gave me something to chew on.

spoilers:

If Cerebra's biometric scans can work with Cerebro backups or something, they won't need Sinister. They'll have every bit of DNA he has and more. If things work out that way, the only obstacles they have are Sinister's Moira clones, and the fact that his own duplicates probably litter the island like cockroaches.

end of spoilers