Best and Worst Avengers Run

[EMPulse]

Best - Roger Stern
Also Best - Kurt Busiek

Worst - Mark Gruenwald - cuz i'm a hater.

In regards to Bendis New Avengers - it changed the way the Avengers accepted members. Gone are the days when The Avengers didn't have heroes who injured civilians and sometimes killed, yup you Wolvie. The By-Laws and their official status with the U.N. has been null and void. They're officiating as they are known, costumed vigilantes. It also became a joke, anybody could be an Avenger. Ex: Al Ewing's Mighty Avengers. The higher status and standards for the word "Hero" changed 616.

[Omega Alpha]

Best - Roger Stern
Also Best - Kurt Busiek

Worst - Mark Gruenwald - cuz i'm a hater.

In regards to Bendis New Avengers - it changed the way the Avengers accepted members. Gone are the days when The Avengers didn't have heroes who injured civilians and sometimes killed, yup you Wolvie. The By-Laws and their official status with the U.N. has been null and void. They're officiating as they are known, costumed vigilantes. It also became a joke, anybody could be an Avenger. Ex: Al Ewing's Mighty Avengers. The higher status and standards for the word "Hero" changed 616.

Oh, yeah, good were the days only truly vetted members could be Avengers, stalwarts like Doctor Druid, D-man, Silverclaw, Rage and Triathlon.

We don't need killers like Wolverine, we need good people like Tony Stark, that made billions selling weapons that hurt innocent people, and then used that money to fund the team. Or Moon Knight, he who never hurt a soul in his life, a man of peace and love.

And yeah, If there's no Jarvis and no UN charter, is not Avengers, this is what defines the team, and things should have stayed as they were forever, because change is bad, and besides, they were already the talk of the town and setting sales charts on fire, why not keep things exactly the same way as they were for 40 years?

[Zero Hunter]

Oh, yeah, good were the days only truly vetted members could be Avengers, stalwarts like Doctor Druid, D-man, Silverclaw, Rage and Triathlon.

We don't need killers like Wolverine, we need good people like Tony Stark, that made billions selling weapons that hurt innocent people, and then used that money to fund the team. Or Moon Knight, he who never hurt a soul in his life, a man of peace and love.

And yeah, If there's no Jarvis and no UN charter, is not Avengers, this is what defines the team, and things should have stayed as they were forever, because change is bad, and besides, they were already the talk of the town and setting sales charts on fire, why not keep things exactly the same way as they were for 40 years?

Dude you can defend Bendis all you want but in the end his run was just lazy. A chimp could have gotten the same numbers with all the characters he was handed. He literly could look and see what characters were becoming hot and grab them up. Oh look Daredevil is gaining traction yep time he was an Avenger. Doctor Strange might be getting a movie? Time to put him on my team too. Bendis likes the spotlight and if a character was getting a movie or TV show you can gurentee he was going to write them in if they fit or not just to get a mention hopefully in an article or online somewhere.

[Rincewind]

Oh, yeah, good were the days only truly vetted members could be Avengers, stalwarts like Doctor Druid, D-man, Silverclaw, Rage and Triathlon.

We don't need killers like Wolverine, we need good people like Tony Stark, that made billions selling weapons that hurt innocent people, and then used that money to fund the team. Or Moon Knight, he who never hurt a soul in his life, a man of peace and love.

And yeah, If there's no Jarvis and no UN charter, is not Avengers, this is what defines the team, and things should have stayed as they were forever, because change is bad, and besides, they were already the talk of the town and setting sales charts on fire, why not keep things exactly the same way as they were for 40 years?

Hulk - walking monster that has caused widespread destruction, formerly hunted by the army and law enforcement
Hawkeye - accomplice to a Soviet agent, attacked Iron Man multiple times
Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver - used to belong to THE BROTHERHOOD OF EVIL MUTANTS, SW went crazy multiple times, QS had several heel turn. Both welcomed back to the team.
Wonder Man - Convicted embezzler, worked for an ex nazi to get powers. Tried to kill the team first time they met.
Swordsman - mercenary, worked for an ex nazi, infiltrated the team to betray them to an ex nazi.
Mantis - Swordsman's prostitute girlfriend
Moondragon - so many issues
Starfox - powers are the definition of date rape
Black Knight - has a magic sword that turns him into a bloodthirsty killer
Sersi, Gilgamesh - All Eternals have centuries of violence and killing
Namor - flooded New York, killing innocent men, women, and children. Accepted as a hero after fighting Hitler. He's basically underwater Stalin
Moon Knight - former mercenary, routinely kills as a superhero, also batshit crazy
Mockingbird and Black Widow - former spies who have no problem killing people
USAgent - had several 'oopsies' while fighting, resulting in multiple deaths

And this is all before the 90s.

The idea that there was a high bar to Avengers membership has made many times. But the actual history of the team doesn't support that.

[Steroid]

Dude you can defend Bendis all you want but in the end his run was just lazy. A chimp could have gotten the same numbers with all the characters he was handed. He literly could look and see what characters were becoming hot and grab them up. Oh look Daredevil is gaining traction yep time he was an Avenger. Doctor Strange might be getting a movie? Time to put him on my team too. Bendis likes the spotlight and if a character was getting a movie or TV show you can gurentee he was going to write them in if they fit or not just to get a mention hopefully in an article or online somewhere.

It's pretty weird that people want to act like Bendis did something revolutionary with the franchise when he took the easiest approach to guaranteed sales at the time. There's a reason why most long time Avengers fans view his run with disdain. The book just wasn't good and instead of adding to the mythos he decided to blow it up with glee. Who needs something like Under Siege, Kang Dynasty or Ultron Unlimited when we can have the Avengers sitting around eating pizza and struggling against the Hand for nearly a decade?

[Omega Alpha]

Dude you can defend Bendis all you want but in the end his run was just lazy. A chimp could have gotten the same numbers with all the characters he was handed. He literly could look and see what characters were becoming hot and grab them up. Oh look Daredevil is gaining traction yep time he was an Avenger. Doctor Strange might be getting a movie? Time to put him on my team too. Bendis likes the spotlight and if a character was getting a movie or TV show you can gurentee he was going to write them in if they fit or not just to get a mention hopefully in an article or online somewhere.

Pretty hard to debate if you're deliberately lying or exaggerating, but here we go:

a) He was the one that suggested they add Wolverine and Spider-Man in the first place. That's a Columbus' Egg right there;
b) Luke Cage, Sentry, Spider-Woman were NOT getting movie deals at all. In fact, without Bendis' writing, there is no Marvel' Netflix at all, and still none of these characters are close to appear in a movie;
c) Also, Dr. Strange got a movie nearly 10 YEARS after his run, and he joined the team before the MCU even started. Back then, even an Avengers movie seemed like a pipe dream, and there were not even Thor and Cap. America movies confirmed (they only were, alongside Avengers, after the success of Iron Man);
d) You're also pretending not to know before coming to Avengers, Bendis wrote one of, if not the most celebrated DD run of all time (certainly the most acclaimed since Miller)- but yeah, he only added DD because of "traction", not because he wrote the character for 5 years to great success;
e) It's one thing to attract interest, other to keep it for 8 YEARS, including in books that don't have Spider-Man and Wolverine (hell considering the sales begun to decline after Siege, not even Bendis could do it for all that time). Again, Dark Avengers outsold NA when it was on, and Might Avengers had close enough numbers;
f) Even with all the hype and popularity for Endgame/Infinity War and the MCU, Avengers now is not remotely as popular as it was back in his (and Hickman's) day, even though all the characters in it are more popular than ever and worldwide icons. If a chimp could do it, perhaps Marvel should hire him, because the people writing Avengers in the last 7 years or so couldn't.

It's pretty weird that people want to act like Bendis did something revolutionary with the franchise when he took the easiest approach to guaranteed sales at the time. There's a reason why most long time Avengers fans view his run with disdain. The book just wasn't good and instead of adding to the mythos he decided to blow it up with glee. Who needs something like Under Siege, Kang Dynasty or Ultron Unlimited when we can have the Avengers sitting around eating pizza and struggling against the Hand for nearly a decade?

Again, it's hard to debate with people who deliberately exaggerate or lie, but here we go:

During his run, the Avengers fought: the entire US government, a Skrull Invasion, Ultron, Loki, Dr. Doom, Kang, Morgana Le Fey (granted, that was Norman's team, but still), etc, and that's just from the top of my head.

It also ended the idea the Avengers were a team of squares doing the government's bidding sitting in a mansion (might be unfair, but trust me, that's how they were seen; there's a reason the likes of X-men, Spider-Man, FF, Ghost Rider, had their rights sold, but not them, and sales reflected that). It also subverted the mythos by showing the team that was not untouchable, and not just from supervillains, but could from the government or even the population.

It also added a lot of characters that became fully a part of the team as much as anyone, Luke Cage and Spider-Man specially.

Hulk - walking monster that has caused widespread destruction, formerly hunted by the army and law enforcement
Hawkeye - accomplice to a Soviet agent, attacked Iron Man multiple times
Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver - used to belong to THE BROTHERHOOD OF EVIL MUTANTS, SW went crazy multiple times, QS had several heel turn. Both welcomed back to the team.
Wonder Man - Convicted embezzler, worked for an ex nazi to get powers. Tried to kill the team first time they met.
Swordsman - mercenary, worked for an ex nazi, infiltrated the team to betray them to an ex nazi.
Mantis - Swordsman's prostitute girlfriend
Moondragon - so many issues
Starfox - powers are the definition of date rape
Black Knight - has a magic sword that turns him into a bloodthirsty killer
Sersi, Gilgamesh - All Eternals have centuries of violence and killing
Namor - flooded New York, killing innocent men, women, and children. Accepted as a hero after fighting Hitler. He's basically underwater Stalin
Moon Knight - former mercenary, routinely kills as a superhero, also batshit crazy
Mockingbird and Black Widow - former spies who have no problem killing people
USAgent - had several 'oopsies' while fighting, resulting in multiple deaths

And this is all before the 90s.

The idea that there was a high bar to Avengers membership has made many times. But the actual history of the team doesn't support that.

Yep.

I certainly didn't think I would ever be defending Bendis that much, because his run, even back in the day, clearly had many flaws, but the vitriol from some of the "back in my day, even nostalgia was so much better " is ridiculous.

Reminds me of Star Wars fanboys losing their minds with Rian Johnson because he dared try something different and move the franchise forward rather than get stuck in the same non-sense that has few appeal to the non-initiated, while they wanted more of the nostalgia fanwank, "it's all about Skywalkers" non-sense that JJ Abrahms offered. The result is that he was brought back in the 9th episode to deliver again, with a predictable disaster as result.

[Steroid]

Pretty hard to debate if you're deliberately lying or exaggerating, but here we go:

a) He was the one that suggested they add Wolverine and Spider-Man in the first place. That's a Columbus' Egg right there;
b) Luke Cage, Sentry, Spider-Woman were NOT getting movie deals at all. In fact, without Bendis' writing, there is no Marvel' Netflix at all, and still none of these characters are close to appear in a movie;
c) Also, Dr. Strange got a movie nearly 10 YEARS after his run, and he joined the team before the MCU even started. Back then, even an Avengers movie seemed like a pipe dream, and there were not even Thor and Cap. America movies confirmed (they only were, alongside Avengers, after the success of Iron Man);
d) You're also pretending not to know before coming to Avengers, Bendis wrote one of, if not the most celebrated DD run of all time (certainly the most acclaimed since Miller)- but yeah, he only added DD because of "traction", not because he wrote the character for 5 years to great success;
e) It's one thing to attract interest, other to keep it for 8 YEARS, including in books that don't have Spider-Man and Wolverine (hell considering the sales begun to decline after Siege, not even Bendis could do it for all that time). Again, Dark Avengers outsold NA when it was on, and Might Avengers had close enough numbers;
f) Even with all the hype and popularity for Endgame/Infinity War and the MCU, Avengers now is not remotely as popular as it was back in his (and Hickman's) day, even though all the characters in it are more popular than ever and worldwide icons. If a chimp could do it, perhaps Marvel should hire him, because the people writing Avengers in the last 7 years or so couldn't.



Again, it's hard to debate with people who deliberately exaggerate or lie, but here we go:

During his run, the Avengers fought: the entire US government, a Skrull Invasion, Ultron, Loki, Dr. Doom, Kang, Morgana Le Fey (granted, that was Norman's team, but still), etc, and that's just from the top of my head.

It also ended the idea the Avengers were a team of squares doing the government's bidding sitting in a mansion (might be unfair, but trust me, that's how they were seen; there's a reason the likes of X-men, Spider-Man, FF, Ghost Rider, had their rights sold, but not them, and sales reflected that). It also subverted the mythos by showing the team that was not untouchable, and not just from supervillains, but could from the government or even the population.

It also added a lot of characters that became fully a part of the team as much as anyone, Luke Cage and Spider-Man specially.



Yep.

I certainly didn't think I would ever be defending Bendis that much, because his run, even back in the day, clearly had many flaws, but the vitriol from some of the "back in my day, even nostalgia was so much better " is ridiculous.

Reminds me of Star Wars fanboys losing their minds with Rian Johnson because he dared try something different and move the franchise forward rather than get stuck in the same non-sense that has few appeal to the non-initiated, while they wanted more of the nostalgia fanwank, "it's all about Skywalkers" non-sense that JJ Abrahms offered. The result is that he was brought back in the 9th episode to deliver again, with a predictable disaster as result.

My opinion on Bendis stories aren't a lie so you can really miss me with that IMO none of Bendis' Avengers stories can touch any of the Avengers I mentioned. Furthermore I haven't seen your list for best and worst runs so all you've done in this thread is criticized others choices. If we are deliberately exaggerating or lying then you are deliberately trolling or is that Ike Perlmutter's fault?

[Omega Alpha]

My opinion on Bendis stories aren't a lie so you can really miss me with that IMO none of Bendis' Avengers stories can touch any of the Avengers I mentioned. Furthermore I haven't seen your list for best and worst runs so all you've done in this thread is criticized others choices. If we are deliberately exaggerating or lying then you are deliberately trolling or is that Ike Perlmutter's fault?

If you think Bendis' stories are bad, that's your opinion and your right to think that way. If you claim they didn't do anything but sit on the couch eating pizza and fighting the Hand, you're exaggerating. If you're saying he only added Dr. Strange or Luke Cage because of movies, you're lying.

Also, good point about my lists, I ended up forgetting with all the discussion.

Avengers:
Best- Hickman (2nd Busiek, 3rd Stern, 4th Bendis) Worst- Aaron

Hulk
Best- PAD (Ewing a close second) Worst- Aaron (I'm starting to see a pattern, although to be fair, there's a lot of runs I haven't read)

Thor
Best: Simonson Worst: I'd say Aaron (yes,again) but the God butcher story is one of the best, and I haven't read all that much from Thor, so I'll abstain.

Black Panther
Best: Priest Worst- Hudlin

Captain America
Best: Brubaker was brilliant, but to be honest, the only I really followed from start to finish.

Spider-Man
Best: Hard to beat the Stan and Ditko/Romita Sr. issues, though my favorite story is probably Kraven's Last Hunt.
Worst: While that might be unfair to him considering he actually wrote good stuff, JMS wrote both Sins Past and OMD (Howard Mackie's run is suppose to be worse, but I haven't read it), the latter of which so disastrous I could never follow the book anymore.

[Steroid]

If you think Bendis' stories are bad, that's your opinion and your right to think that way. If you claim they didn't do anything but sit on the couch eating pizza and fighting the Hand, you're exaggerating. If you're saying he only added Dr. Strange or Luke Cage because of movies, you're lying.

Also, good point about my lists, I ended up forgetting with all the discussion.

Avengers:
Best- Hickman (2nd Busiek, 3rd Stern, 4th Bendis) Worst- Aaron

Hulk
Best- PAD (Ewing a close second) Worst- Aaron (I'm starting to see a pattern, although to be fair, there's a lot of runs I haven't read)

Thor
Best: Simonson Worst: I'd say Aaron (yes,again) but the God butcher story is one of the best, and I haven't read all that much from Thor, so I'll abstain.

Black Panther
Best: Priest Worst- Hudlin

Captain America
Best: Brubaker was brilliant, but to be honest, the only I really followed from start to finish.

Spider-Man
Best: Hard to beat the Stan and Ditko/Romita Sr. issues, though my favorite story is probably Kraven's Last Hunt.
Worst: While that might be unfair to him considering he actually wrote good stuff, JMS wrote both Sins Past and OMD (Howard Mackie's run is suppose to be worse, but I haven't read it), the latter of which so disastrous I could never follow the book anymore.

I actually agree with most of your choices though I can't really put the blame of OMD on JMS. That was pretty much Quesada but I definitely hold him accountable for Sins Past.

[Cassy0110]

Which Avengers solo/team run is your favorite or horrible bad?

1) Avengers
Best: Kurt Busiek's Avengers run
Worst: Mark Waid's All New All Different Avengers run

2) Iron Man

3) Thor
WORST:Jason Aaron's Thor run

4) Captain America
BEST:Ed Brubaker's Captain America
WORST:Coates's Captain run

5) Black Widow
BEST: Kelly's Black Widow run


6) Hulk
BEST: Greg Pak's Incredible Hulk run
WORST:Donny's Hulk run

7) Hawkeye
BEST: Kurt Busiek's Thunderbots run
WORST: Kelly Thompson's Hawkeye/WCA run

8) Spider-Man
BEST: Dan Slott's Spider Man

9) Black Panther

10) Carol Danvers
BEST: Brian Reed's Ms. Marvel run
WORST: Kelly Sue DeConnick's Captain Marvel run

These are so far I could write down my favourite but, What about your own based on this list.

Agree with everything!

[Triniking1234]

I'm just gonna say Lee/Kirby initial take was bad and I'm glad Roy Thomas came along and fixed that ****.

God bless Black Panther and The Vision.

[Nomads1]

I'm just gonna say Lee/Kirby initial take was bad and I'm glad Roy Thomas came along and fixed that ****.

God bless Black Panther and The Vision.

IMHO, Stan Lee was a fantastic marketing man, but he was a really poor writer. It's widely known that the artists (such as Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko) were the true creative drive in those early days. Thomas, on the other hand, was a great writer. While I enjoyed the early issues of the book, I hated Cap's Kooky Quartet, and started to like the title again when Hank and Jan came back, but I actually only began to LOVE Avengers when Thomas picked up the title.

Peace

[Dreaded Porcupine]

Avengers
Best- Stern, Busiek, Englehart
Worst- Bendis, Aaron

Iron Man
Best- Michelinie
Worst- Bendis

Hulk
Best- Ewing

Thor
Best- Simonson
Worst- Aaron

Cap
Best- Gruenwald

[maryjane]

best Avengers run :
1) Harras / Epting
2) Stern / Buscema
3) Busiek / Perez
4 ) Byrne / Byrne (West Coast Avengers)

for the single characters, I'll not do it, everyone is an Avengers and it will take too much space

[Solid Snake]

1) Avengers
Best: Kurt Busiek & George Perez / Roy Thomas / Roger Stern
Worst: Mark Waid / Jason Aaron

2) Iron Man
Best: David Michelinie & Bob Layton / Dennis O'Neil / Matt Fraction
Worst: Dan Slott / Brian Michael Bendis

3) Thor
Best: Jack Kirby & Stan Lee / Walter Simonson

4) Captain America
Best: Nick Spencer Roger Stern & John Byrne
Worst: Ta-Nehisi Coates

5) Black Widow
Best: Kelly Thompson & Elena Casagrande

6) Hulk
Best: Al Ewing & Joe Bennett

7) Hawkeye
Best: Matt Fraction & David Aja

8) Spider-Man
Best: Stan Lee, Steve Ditko & John Romita

9) Black Panther
Best: Christopher Priest