Hickman's Alleged Third Act, Threshold, The Core Theme of HoX/PoX : A Theory

[BobbysWorld]

So tbh, this might be too long for anyone to give a **** and actually slog through, hence why I literally just saved it as a pdf and uploaded it to a publicly viewable PDF file hosting site instead of trying to make it a series of posts, but linking it in case anyone is interested.

It basically just started as a response to the Marauders #5 issue and thread, musing on the ways Orlando was tying it into his 2099 stuff and what was interesting about that to me. But then that sparked a whole bunch of thoughts and ideas about his overall direction and then the idea of Threshold itself, and the fact the X-Offices insist they are still following Hickman's original outline and have been all along, just in a longer, slower way. And then from there I started re-examining Hickman's entire run while considering a different possible interpretation of it and where he might've been going. Pretty much taking a fresh look at the entire damn thing and even changing my own mind (like tbh, I kinda always assumed he was writing Krakoa as a cautionary tale about nationalism too, and that was one of my gripes in specific...I thought that was a tone deaf approach to writing a group usually viewed as an allegory for oppression, but now I'm like hey wait, maybe that WASN'T actually a goal or theme, hmmm)....and anyway....16K later, here we go.

Yes, I'm not kidding, and that's why it might not be worth it, lmao - full disclosure, it DOES get pretty repetitive and circular in parts, but I wrote it all in one sitting and I was just kinda thinking out loud and working things out in my head as I go, because I'm a nerd who really does enjoy analyzing things for fun and exploring and extrapolating themes and ideas and all that. And its long and stream-of-consciousness-y because that's just how I write when I'm not bothering to edit and that's basically the only way I CAN bang out 2K an hour, lol, but it is at least readable, I think, and I don't actually care enough TO go back and spend more time editing it all down or whatever, so....tada! Its here if people are interested in perusing, and if not....lol its cool, I get it. I just figured, hey, I already wrote the damn thing, might as well share....

https://pdfhost.io/v/qVHysh9j9_Hickm..._blah_whatever

[Rift]

Thanks for posting, I was really curious about your thoughts when you mentioned them in the Marauders thread.

Reading it right now. So far...

And that's because in 2099's history.....most of mutantkind just up and fucking vanished at some point in the 2020s, and mutant births among the general global population didn't start happening again with any kind of frequency until well into the second half of the 21st century.

Oh. I think I know where this is going, and I don't like it. Before I finish this, I'm staking my theory now: The Threshold is Krakoa, escaping to the past. Kate left the box out for herself to create a time loop and lead her back to the past, in order to save everyone from the Threshold's fate. OR Krakoa learns from the Threshold and adapts their ways.

I like how you mentioned Hickman's fascination and plans for the Shi'ar. I didn't think of it at much first, but Orlando tying mutant lore into their history is sus. On top of that, we know that the Krakoa era likes to parallel nations or characters, often to foreshadow developments. (Moira &Omega Sentinel copying each other's plot beats; the Great Ring sharing similar character archetypes with the Quiet Council.)

[G-Man27]

I just thought of something, if we are looking at a timeloop here, then the one way to make sure that they save the Thresholders but still fullfill the one's trip to the future that started it all then why not have one of the Marauders make the trip, and who on the Marauders is infamous for traveling through time and has a habit of not being able to go through the Krakoan doors almost as if she didn't belong there, none other than Captain Kate Pryde. Plus the Mysterium box does have her DNA...

[davetvs]

Very interesting. I wouldn't be mad at this outcome at all.

[BobbysWorld]

Thanks for posting, I was really curious about your thoughts when you mentioned them in the Marauders thread.

Reading it right now. So far...


Oh. I think I know where this is going, and I don't like it. Before I finish this, I'm staking my theory now: The Threshold is Krakoa, escaping to the past. Kate left the box out for herself to create a time loop and lead her back to the past, in order to save everyone from the Threshold's fate. OR Krakoa learns from the Threshold and adapts their ways.

I like how you mentioned Hickman's fascination and plans for the Shi'ar. I didn't think of it at much first, but Orlando tying mutant lore into their history is sus. On top of that, we know that the Krakoa era likes to parallel nations or characters, often to foreshadow developments. (Moira &Omega Sentinel copying each other's plot beats; the Great Ring sharing similar character archetypes with the Quiet Council.)

LOL, make sure you don't rage quit when you get to that part because you don't like that outcome, because I'm with you there, if Krakoa being the origin of Threshold were to end up the end of the Hickman run/outline. IMO its key that learning about Threshold and its connection to Krakoa (according to my theory at least) would be a major part, if not central, to Hickman's Third Act, with everything making it seem more and more inevitable that no matter what mutants try, there's no escaping the 'fate' that they'll still end up seeing the departure that leads to Threshold as their only real option to avoiding an all-out war with humanity where one side ends up a clear victor.

But thematically, all of this requires that Threshold be the core of the Third Act, but NOT the ultimate outcome. All of this only works if in the end, no matter how dire things seem, mutants DON'T resign themselves to seeing that outcome as inevitable and accept that there's no other way. They have to keep trying different things and believing there can be other outcomes PAST the point where they're 'supposed to' make the jump back in time, and thus start the time loop that endlessly feeds into itself and seems unavoidable or with no way to escape it.

They have to keep trying and hoping, no matter what history or past lives or precognition tells them.....and refuse to give up anyway....in direct contrast to how Moira stopped believing there could be a different outcome in the very same lifetime that WOULD have had a different outcome, mutantkind winning, the way Omega Sentinel remembers history.....and with that apathy and renewed focus on the very choices that STARTED her cycle with Destiny, the cure....being critical to helping Omega Sentinel alter events so that mutantkind's victory didn't end up assured after all.

If they don't end up seeing Threshold as all but inevitable but STILL choose not to make the jump anyway....it doesn't work, thematically.

The key is they have to break the cycle by refusing to accept that there's nothing outside the cycle, that the cycle is all there will ever be. Because its ONLY giving in to seeing the cycle as 'fate' that all roads lead back to anyway....that actually gives the cycle the power to keep going.

And who knows? Maybe in the end, the resurrection protocols are crucial.....because they let mutants change their own rules (specifically the one about no duplicates)....and complete the jump into the past after all, starting the cycle and preserving history/the timeline....as Krakoans go into the past and create Threshold 'as fate demands'....while its original population stays right where it is in the present day....which, as of the first second AFTER 'Departure Point' when Krakoans first jumped to the past and created both Threshold and the initial time loop......is now officially OUTSIDE of the time loop, completely separate from it and no longer able to influence it or be influenced by it at all. True, uncharted territory. A future that hasn't yet been scripted, seen, or lived through....something brand new.

[BobbysWorld]

Thanks for posting, I was really curious about your thoughts when you mentioned them in the Marauders thread.

I like how you mentioned Hickman's fascination and plans for the Shi'ar. I didn't think of it at much first, but Orlando tying mutant lore into their history is sus.

LOL yeah, as to this....there's also the fact that how often Kate drops the word 'ancestors' to refer to Threshold and pissing readers off because there's no way for modern mutants to be descended from them as far as we can tell.....weeeeeeell, Orlando using that specific word as often as he does, like, makes a LOT more sense if the big plot twist turns out to be Kate going to Threshold and discovering that its inhabitants are actually their DESCENDANTS.

[Wolverine12]

Oh man, I read all of that in one sitting lol. It's a pretty interesting theory and I think it could have some merit to it. I need to go back and re-read Marauders 1-5 now because even though I enjoyed the story a lot that particular title has felt the least connected to the Krakoa era since the new #1, but maybe with this new perspective and a re-read I'd see more of what you're saying. The one sticking point I'm not understanding is if the 3rd act is build up to "go in the past and be safe" or "screw that lets roll the dice one more time" it doesn't really fell like a final act at all, just the next step before whatever the eventual ending is supposed to be. Maybe I missed something, but it's 1 am and I'm tired so cut me some slack if I misread what you were saying lol.

[BobbysWorld]

Maybe I missed something, but it's 1 am and I'm tired so cut me some slack if I misread what you were saying lol.

LOL no, you basically got it. The theory does have some kinks, to be sure, but I think most of them just stem from the fact that if this is the direction, how well it works really depends on execution and hitting the right tone with all the important plot beats. And as far as possible directions for this era go, its more of a gamble than most directions they could take with it, but then I think that's always been true of the entire era. Everything Hickman did was a big swing and carried a lot of risk from the start. So I don't see him as having intended to play it any safer with his ultimate direction and final beats.

I think the biggest variable in how well this works is whether or not the Third Act does an adequate job building up the sense of futility characters feel about finding another option aside from fight or flight. Like, it wouldn't actually even BE a question between 'do we go' or 'do we stick it out and roll the dice'....it'd look more like the only options are 'do we go' or 'do we stay and fight either to die or else win but at the cost of tons of human lives for a victory most of us never even wanted cuz we DON'T want humanity wiped out, we just don't want to be wiped out either.'

The Third Act would have to really sell the idea that Threshold isn't a preferred outcome for anyone - that's the point. It just seems more and more like the best or most bearable outcome out of a selection of outcomes that all suck....but that the characters are convinced are the ONLY possibilities. They've become so used to basing their actions and choices in this era on information from different timelines, past lives, precognition....because at least the paths laid out by those DO follow a script. It gives them a sense of control over their destinies: they know exactly what lies behind each door or at the end of each road, thus allowing them to make an informed choice from among the options they have actual information about. Only....they're not realizing how much control they're giving up every time they do this.

By narrowing their vision JUST to the outcomes they can see and map out and know EXACTLY what taking that path will get them....they've confined themselves to considering JUST those paths. They've accepted the idea that anything outside of these specific paths and their known quantities....carries too much risk. There are no guarantees with any other route, and mutants are so damn USED to losing, things always getting worse in ways they never foresee, they're so ready to view Moira's statement of 'mutants always lose' as an empirical truth rather than just her summation of nine lifetimes....specifically because it plays into their confirmation bias and validates the fear that they've always been nursing already, that there IS no real longterm future for them....

They've started operating off the base assumption that all their futures are bad to some degree. So rather than risk the unknown and be caught offguard, always surprised by how things end up taking a turn for the worse, they've started saying: 'well if things are always going to suck anyway, I'd rather they suck in a way I can see coming and plan for, that way I can minimize expectations, maximize how much enjoyment/positive stuff I can get out of life BEFORE things suck again, and maybe figure out a way to recover a little quicker before the next round of suck.'

They've resigned themselves to always settling for the best of bad options, as long as that lets them plan ahead to SOME degree, make SOME improvements without derailing that future course too much, gives them SOME comfort that by steering themselves down select paths, they can go forward with eyes wide open, alert to dangers coming their way instead of charging ahead blindly and maybe running into something even worse.....but by the same token, they've stopped letting themselves take a chance on trying for an outcome that's better than settling. Not if it means having to let go of the wheel or take the risk that comes from opening a door WITHOUT knowing what's behind it.

By only picking between known outcomes, they've shut themselves off from any number of potential positive outcomes, that they don't believe really exist anyway. And this is literally the only thing that's keeping them trapped in self-defeating loops where they always end up in the same place because they've convinced themselves there's only three roads even worth considering out of an infinite number. And one of them looks slightly better than the others, so they keep picking it even knowing where it leads while telling themselves maybe this time will be different and we'll find some way to break the cycle and end up somewhere else instead of here....

With the whole reason this never works being....when the cycle only exists because you keep choosing between three equally circular paths, the only way to EVER break the cycle is to stop acting like there are only three freaking paths! LOL. By holding on to something like the Threshold path as an option to fall back on if they don't find a better way before they reach the point where they'd have to commit to that path....because they're trying to play it safe and hang on to some kind of guarantee....they block themselves from ever considering the unknown alternatives. Because considering the unknown alternatives FORCES them to let go of the fall back option.

When you view the unknown as inherently dangerous, you'll keep defaulting to the known....which means you were never actually considering the unknown in the first place. Not if you knew you'd never actually rate it better than the outcome you're keeping to fall back on. You quite literally can not play it safe AND take a risk at the same time. These are two contrary priorities that cancel each other out. There's no way to do both at the same time, you HAVE to pick one. Even if you don't consciously mean to, every choice you make will inevitably be one or the other, never both. Leaps of faith, by their very nature, HAVE to be made blindly, or they're literally not leaps of faith.

All of which is to say.....the Third Act wouldn't be "go in the past and be safe" or "screw that let's roll the dice one more time" - because the characters in this era aren't even actually allowing themselves to consider the latter an option at all. The Third Act is them trying to decide between three paths only: stay and fight humanity and kill, stay and fight humanity and die, or go into the past where they don't have to die or kill anyone at all. They might THINK they're open to other options, but as long as they intend to still choose the Threshold path if they don't find a path that GUARANTEES a better outcome, they're always going to choose the Threshold path once they reach do or die time. And all the paths that come with guarantees will likely have been mapped by then, so they're not GOING to find a better guarantee. So as long as they're insisting that the path they choose HAS to come with a guarantee....there was never really a choice to be made at all, and Threshold remains an inevitability.

And that's why them choosing to stay anyway, even when they have no idea what comes after that and are going forward blind with no guarantee....that's why that's the end goal of the era IMO. I mean, I do think the ending will still have more of a resolution than that. After the point they were supposed to leave for Threshold passes, I think we'll still reach AN ending to the looming conflict they were trying to escape. Some new opportunity presents itself AFTER they'd passed up their last chance to take the out it offered....and there's no way they could have known about this opportunity because no version of them to go through the time loop has any idea what comes after that point. Its literally off the map they've been using. There's no window into that point because its past the point they usually shut the door on this time period and leave. So even if this last minute diffuser ends up being a deus ex machina plot-wise, it won't be one in SPIRIT....because the whole point is that this opportunity COULD only be discovered by choosing to go off the map and hope for better than it could ever offer.

Thus, because of whatever happens after they make the choice to stay, things will be pulled back from the brink just in the nick of time. Tensions will still exist, so will Krakoa, there's no magic fix and stories officially considered to be AFTER this era will tackle human/mutant tensions just as much as any before. They'll still have the various mutant nations or factions trying to deal with these and confront the problems that come with them, they'll have a spectrum of story possibilities that's not that different from what they had before....

But what makes it actually different and marks it as an endpoint to this era is that it leaves mutants on the first page of a brand new story that's finally broken free of the cycle Hickman centered this era around. And to that end, it kinda requires that things be left open-ended and there's no clear indication of what comes next. That'll be totally up to whatever writers the X-Offices staff PAST this point, and because that'll be unrelated to the Hickman era and outline, there's absolutely ZERO way of even guessing what that might look like.

And therein lies the theme. We're not supposed to be able to have any idea what's next, and neither are mutants. But the only way to reach that point is for them to choose to tear up the script and risk everything, because they hope for better than the options they know don't actually give them a future they truly want.

Facts, data and empirical proofs can carry you far....

But in the end, sometimes dreaming will actually get you further.

[Ulysian_Thracs]

So tbh, this might be too long for anyone to give a **** and actually slog through, hence why I literally just saved it as a pdf and uploaded it to a publicly viewable PDF file hosting site instead of trying to make it a series of posts, but linking it in case anyone is interested.

It basically just started as a response to the Marauders #5 issue and thread, musing on the ways Orlando was tying it into his 2099 stuff and what was interesting about that to me. But then that sparked a whole bunch of thoughts and ideas about his overall direction and then the idea of Threshold itself, and the fact the X-Offices insist they are still following Hickman's original outline and have been all along, just in a longer, slower way. And then from there I started re-examining Hickman's entire run while considering a different possible interpretation of it and where he might've been going. Pretty much taking a fresh look at the entire damn thing and even changing my own mind (like tbh, I kinda always assumed he was writing Krakoa as a cautionary tale about nationalism too, and that was one of my gripes in specific...I thought that was a tone deaf approach to writing a group usually viewed as an allegory for oppression, but now I'm like hey wait, maybe that WASN'T actually a goal or theme, hmmm)....and anyway....16K later, here we go.

Yes, I'm not kidding, and that's why it might not be worth it, lmao - full disclosure, it DOES get pretty repetitive and circular in parts, but I wrote it all in one sitting and I was just kinda thinking out loud and working things out in my head as I go, because I'm a nerd who really does enjoy analyzing things for fun and exploring and extrapolating themes and ideas and all that. And its long and stream-of-consciousness-y because that's just how I write when I'm not bothering to edit and that's basically the only way I CAN bang out 2K an hour, lol, but it is at least readable, I think, and I don't actually care enough TO go back and spend more time editing it all down or whatever, so....tada! Its here if people are interested in perusing, and if not....lol its cool, I get it. I just figured, hey, I already wrote the damn thing, might as well share....

https://pdfhost.io/v/qVHysh9j9_Hickm..._blah_whatever

Spectacular insights! Much more deeply thought out and researched than any of my prognostications, but I've also always believed the intention was (and probably still is) a very hard reset at the end of Krakoa era. It just always seems too close to a Happy Ending for mutants, and the stories don’t get better after a Happy Ending, they get worse or they stop entirely.
I know I disagree with you and others on this point, but I think something fundamental is taken away from the X-Men in general and the mutants in particular by the Krakoa era. Not just Resurrection, but I guess the sin qua non of mutants (at least to me) has always been them rising against their persecution to be better humans than the humans of the Marvel Universe and better heroes than even the Avengers. The persecution and their reaction to it is what set them apart from all the other superhero teams that are celebrated, and made them better than the Avengers. They don’t kill, they don’t destroy cities, they try to save the people trying to hurt them…

And from a personal standpoint, reading X-Men comics and connecting with the characters being persecuted despite their powers and desire to make the world better gave me an insight and created some empathy in a way reading a history textbook never could.

To me, in this Krakoa era the mutants (as a whole) become something of a (only slightly) more interesting version of the Inhumans. They care almost entirely about themselves, are isolationist except when looking to expand their power and economic might, and care little about how their actions affect humans. And I think after the QC voted to try to kill the Celestial no matter how many humans died that mutants as a whole no longer have that quality or are even really the good guys. I’m not saying they are the bad guys per se, but they’ve lost the qualities that separated them from all the other groups of superhumans. Maybe that sets up a civil war as some people guess…

PS- My current prediction is that a Moira clone will be used to reset the timeline, but the 'Black Box' project Chuckles has Forge working on is like an airplane's black box, though probably with that mutant named Black Box?, where he (and ONLY him, because Xavier is just that kinda guy) gets access to the same knowledge Moira has so they can do better next time. Just my crystal ballin...

[Omega Alpha]

Spectacular insights! Much more deeply thought out and researched than any of my prognostications, but I've also always believed the intention was (and probably still is) a very hard reset at the end of Krakoa era. It just always seems too close to a Happy Ending for mutants, and the stories don’t get better after a Happy Ending, they get worse or they stop entirely.
I know I disagree with you and others on this point, but I think something fundamental is taken away from the X-Men in general and the mutants in particular by the Krakoa era. Not just Resurrection, but I guess the sin qua non of mutants (at least to me) has always been them rising against their persecution to be better humans than the humans of the Marvel Universe and better heroes than even the Avengers. The persecution and their reaction to it is what set them apart from all the other superhero teams that are celebrated, and made them better than the Avengers. They don’t kill, they don’t destroy cities, they try to save the people trying to hurt them…

And from a personal standpoint, reading X-Men comics and connecting with the characters being persecuted despite their powers and desire to make the world better gave me an insight and created some empathy in a way reading a history textbook never could.

To me, in this Krakoa era the mutants (as a whole) become something of a (only slightly) more interesting version of the Inhumans. They care almost entirely about themselves, are isolationist except when looking to expand their power and economic might, and care little about how their actions affect humans. And I think after the QC voted to try to kill the Celestial no matter how many humans died that mutants as a whole no longer have that quality or are even really the good guys. I’m not saying they are the bad guys per se, but they’ve lost the qualities that separated them from all the other groups of superhumans. Maybe that sets up a civil war as some people guess…

PS- My current prediction is that a Moira clone will be used to reset the timeline, but the 'Black Box' project Chuckles has Forge working on is like an airplane's black box, though probably with that mutant named Black Box?, where he (and ONLY him, because Xavier is just that kinda guy) gets access to the same knowledge Moira has so they can do better next time. Just my crystal ballin...

Just in the last issue of X-men alone, the X-men saved the world from an extinction level event, while also dealing with another extinction level event, and while addressing the press at an anti-mutant rally. But, sure, it's just an Inhuman clone civilization that only cares about themselves...

Anyone saying the X-men were more attuned to the world or whatever living in the mansion is deluding themselves- they had so much Shi'ar technology that might as well be a spaceship or alien civilization, there was not a single human living there for eons, while in Krakoa there are, the mansion was a secret for most of it's existence, and X-men rarely graduate to do anything other than be superheroes in X-men and X-related teams. In fact, in Krakoa they are MORE connected to the world than they were before, nothing less, and that's undeniable once you actually read the stories.

And if you want mutants to be better than humans, then essentially you want mutant supremacy, exactly what you're accusing Krakoa of doing, and saying the likes of Magneto and Exodus were right all along. Mutants are people just like any other, good and bad, capable of great heroism and horrible things. If you didn't understand that, maybe X-men aren't for you.

[Ulysian_Thracs]

Just in the last issue of X-men alone, the X-men saved the world from an extinction level event, while also dealing with another extinction level event, and while addressing the press at an anti-mutant rally. But, sure, it's just an Inhuman clone civilization that only cares about themselves...

Anyone saying the X-men were more attuned to the world or whatever living in the mansion is deluding themselves- they had so much Shi'ar technology that might as well be a spaceship or alien civilization, there was not a single human living there for eons, while in Krakoa there are, the mansion was a secret for most of it's existence, and X-men rarely graduate to do anything other than be superheroes in X-men and X-related teams. In fact, in Krakoa they are MORE connected to the world than they were before, nothing less, and that's undeniable once you actually read the stories.

And if you want mutants to be better than humans, then essentially you want mutant supremacy, exactly what you're accusing Krakoa of doing, and saying the likes of Magneto and Exodus were right all along. Mutants are people just like any other, good and bad, capable of great heroism and horrible things. If you didn't understand that, maybe X-men aren't for you.

You read it your way and I'll read it mine. But talking down to random people on comic book boards really isn't effective at getting them to consider your points. Just an FYI for your real life, where stuff like that kinda matters...

EDIT: This is a real problem with these boards. I'm just here to discuss comics and hopefully learn more about the series I like. i don't want to get into personal arguments with people or get treated like crap by people who think they know more than me (whether they do or not). I want to hear different people's takes because comics seem to be the most subtextual medium for story telling. There is so little dialogue or written exposition (normally) that everyone puts themselves into a lot of what they see on the page. But to come at people like, 'If you didn't read it my way then xman isnt for you' is BS. You're far from the only one one here who talks down to people like that, just the most recent to jump down my throat because you disagree with my opinion.000.jpg

[Omega Alpha]

Look, I apologize if I've offended,but it's pretty clear the more I debate here that the more people complain about some things, the less they are likely to actually be reading the stories they're criticizing, and that is getting on my nerves.

If you see the X-Men living in a billionaire's mansion full of alien technology without a human in sight and that's caring about other people rather than just mutants and fighting for integration, while the X-Men saving the world from extinction while they also fight yet another extinction threat and address the press in an anti-mutant rally is being Inhumans-like, it's a free country, but I don't know what to tell you.

[davetvs]

This theory seems more plausible after Marauders #6.

[Drexelhand]

Wait, the new 2099 stuff is set in the original Earth-928 timeline and not in the new Earth-2099 one? The wiki says it's the new one, plus at the end of Peter David's Spider-Man 2099 run, they shifted to the year 2100 and Miguel got sent to the past where he is now. So... I don't see how it can be the original 2099 Timeline and not the new one.

[BobbysWorld]

Wait, the new 2099 stuff is set in the original Earth-928 timeline and not in the new Earth-2099 one? The wiki says it's the new one, plus at the end of Peter David's Spider-Man 2099 run, they shifted to the year 2100 and Miguel got sent to the past where he is now. So... I don't see how it can be the original 2099 Timeline and not the new one.

Honestly, I'm not sure about how the timelines are officially being labeled, all I know is the current 2099 stuff is being treated as though its directly in the future of this current 616 timeline. Orlando did an Ask Me Anything thread on twitter right before the start of his 2099 stuff, and when people asked about the living/dead status of various 2099 characters, he specified that all his stuff was picking up directly from the end of the last 2099 stories, springing out of the stuff with the Phalanx and Doom and the Savage Land, and all those previous events. So characters who died in the earlier 2099 stories were still dead in these new ones, etc. So again, I can't speak to how they're labeling timelines or periods, but it seems there's definitely been an effort to treat all pre-existing 2099 stories as though they're part of the same universe as the current 2099 stories.