The Rings Of Power. Wait, come back! It has the Tolkien seal of approval!

[Celgress]

Or orcs. Warcraft did it. I think D&D recently did as well.

This is true. I feel that in 2022 saying any "race" or species is inherently 100% evil (with no expectations under any circumstances) and should be "wiped out" is not only morally wrong (and undoubtedly racist) it is also narratively limiting.

Edit - As a great character once said -

"Only Sith deal in absolutes."

Speaking of the Sith and Jedi, one of the big things modern Jedi got wrong was that if a member fell to the Dark Side the belief was they could never return to the Light Side (both in Canon and in Legends). These individuals were essentially given up on by the Order and often their loved ones by extension. This occurred despite the known fact that individuals rarely did return to the light such as Reven (Legends), Quinlin Vos, Ventress, and most famously of all Vader/Anakin.

[Username taken]

I think this debate is getting obsfucated.

For the LoTR scholars, were the orcs depicted and described as anything other magically created tools of war? If we are going strictly by what Tolkien described then wiping them out (particularly at the time of the Rings of Power) isn't wrong.

Now, clearly some liberties have been taken with the text and that could change (I.e regarding the orcs). Like i said earlier, there are problematic elements to the description of the orcs and there's a possibility the producers might want to side-step that. Aside from that, Galadriel wanting to destroy creatures created from dark magic isnt a problem at all based on what we know currently. At least IMO.

That said, I dont think the producers of the series want us to think Galadriel is some "pristine heroine". Yes, she's quite right in some of her opinions but her headstrong nature and single-mindedness have so far shown her to be quite flawed at this stage of her life.

[thwhtGuardian]

This is true. I feel that in 2022 saying any "race" or species is inherently 100% evil (with no expectations under any circumstances) and should be "wiped out" is not only morally wrong (and undoubtedly racist) it is also narratively limiting.

Edit - As a great character once said -

"Only Sith deal in absolutes."

Speaking of the Sith and Jedi, one of the big things modern Jedi got wrong was that if a member fell to the Dark Side the belief was they could never return to the Light Side (both in Canon and in Legends). These individuals were essentially given up on by the Order and often their loved ones by extension. This occurred despite the known fact that individuals rarely did return to the light such as Reven (Legends), Quinlin Vos, Ventress, and most famously of all Vader/Anakin.

If we're talking real life races or species, yeah 100% we shouldn't be labeling anything or anyone "evil"...but we're talking orcs here, it's pure fantasy and not even based allegorically on any real cultures so the same doesn't go. Is it cool that D&D has made it so you can be a good orc? Yeah, it opens up some fun new angles for game play, but it doesn't mean another story is wrong for not doing the same thing.

[80sbaby]

Orc sex…that’s something never crossed my mind.

Lol really? How did you think Half-Orcs happened

[Username taken]

Lol really? How did you think Half-Orcs happened

Funny enough, I thought the half orc were just made different like the Uruks. Uruk-hai I mean.

Although there are some suggestions that Uruk are half man too but I never thought they were made the "old-fashioned way".

[Frontier]

Yeah, I think Adar feels somehow justified.

But in the midst of his speech, he said he killed Sauron which isn’t true (or at least from our perspective we know it can’t be true). That’s why I’m skeptical of the guy’s words.

IMO, the orcs shouldn’t even be allowed to exist at all. They are mockeries of nature and killing them doesn’t just prevent their chaos, it allows whomever they were before they were converted into monsters to be “free”.

I think Adar probably thinks he did successfully kill Sauron because it doesn't seem like something he would lie about given how much his hatred of Sauron is genuine. Which probably means Sauron will screw him over one last time.

I think this debate is getting obsfucated.

For the LoTR scholars, were the orcs depicted and described as anything other magically created tools of war? If we are going strictly by what Tolkien described then wiping them out (particularly at the time of the Rings of Power) isn't wrong.

Now, clearly some liberties have been taken with the text and that could change (I.e regarding the orcs). Like i said earlier, there are problematic elements to the description of the orcs and there's a possibility the producers might want to side-step that. Aside from that, Galadriel wanting to destroy creatures created from dark magic isnt a problem at all based on what we know currently. At least IMO.

That said, I dont think the producers of the series want us to think Galadriel is some "pristine heroine". Yes, she's quite right in some of her opinions but her headstrong nature and single-mindedness have so far shown her to be quite flawed at this stage of her life.

I definitely don't think they intended for Galadriel talking about torturing/killing Orcs to screw with Adar or make him talk was meant to come out positively even if you just see the Orcs as monsters. I mean, I've wondered if the writers are as aware of Galadriel's flaws or abrasiveness as the audience is, but it feels like they're setting up a major change to her character which will probably start with the destruction caused by Mt. Doom.

And maybe furthered if all the foreshadowing about Halbrand being Sauron is accurate. Because it would be one thing that she totally screwed up with the key and lead to a bunch of people dying, but that she admitted she was attracted to Sauron ?

[Scott Taylor]

Only the Sith deal in absolutes is an absolute statement, Obi Wan you gronk!

I actually enjoy the way the series is dealing with its morality, and appreciated the speech by Adar. You can tell that it was more than just perspective, it was dedication and belief on his part of his own world view. He talks of peace, having a land of their own. Its totally true that the orcs were originally made to be slaves, and thats the way the old school (Galadriel) views them. But what happens over tons of years if the orcs are still around but the master isn't? This show is doing a nice job exploring that and other morality struggles of its characters.

As far as allegories, I can certainly see why Tolkein hated them with regard to people interpreting his work. His concepts are applicable, not allegorical.

[Indian Ink]

If the orcs lack free agency in thought and action, then ironically I don't think they can be evil. They're just humanoid shaped rabid dogs (directed by an evil force) that need to be put down and wiped from existence.

If the above is true, then Galadriel is manifesting a great amount of evil sadism. How well would we regard anyone who took glee in killing dogs with rabies? One should take to the task with unpleasant thoroughness, but no joy in it's completion.

Now perhaps Adar himself has free will of a type, but Galadriel still comes across as being a nasty piece of work. Why make him suffer? Adar seems just as much victim as villain.

[Username taken]

I think Adar probably thinks he did successfully kill Sauron because it doesn't seem like something he would lie about given how much his hatred of Sauron is genuine. Which probably means Sauron will screw him over one last time.

I definitely don't think they intended for Galadriel talking about torturing/killing Orcs to screw with Adar or make him talk was meant to come out positively even if you just see the Orcs as monsters. I mean, I've wondered if the writers are as aware of Galadriel's flaws or abrasiveness as the audience is, but it feels like they're setting up a major change to her character which will probably start with the destruction caused by Mt. Doom.

And maybe furthered if all the foreshadowing about Halbrand being Sauron is accurate. Because it would be one thing that she totally screwed up with the key and lead to a bunch of people dying, but that she admitted she was attracted to Sauron ?

Galadriel being attracted to Sauron will be hilariously ironic.

Galadriel looking at the smoke coming towards and not moving was a "at that moment, she knew she f..cked up".

[Scott Taylor]

If the orcs lack free agency in thought and action, then ironically I don't think they can be evil. They're just humanoid shaped rabid dogs (directed by an evil force) that need to be put down and wiped from existence.

If the above is true, then Galadriel is manifesting a great amount of evil sadism. How well would we regard anyone who took glee in killing dogs with rabies? One should take to the task with unpleasant thoroughness, but no joy in it's completion.

Now perhaps Adar himself has free will of a type, but Galadriel still comes across as being a nasty piece of work. Why make him suffer? Adar seems just as much victim as villain.

Orcs like that would just be machines like SkyNet. Anyone shed a tear over Arnold being sadistic and "killing" all those sentient machines in the Terminator movies?

At any rate, I do think Galadriel is on an arc to become the more introspective person she was much later. But its hard to really love most of the Tolkein elves, they are pretty snooty and superior, always have been.

[daBronzeBomma]

Thoughts on #RingsOfPower s1e6 "Udun". Spoilers follow ...
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

1. Now THAT'S a payoff!

What an episode! Totally worth the previous five episodes of incremental buildups! I fully understand and accept that this won't (and can't) be the caliber of every ROP episode, but I remember this sort of feeling after the seasonal penultimate episodes of #GameOfThrones. "Udun" strikes me as the most direct counterpart to GOT's "Baelor", where the true stakes of the show are suddenly laid bare.

At least if my hunch is correct. And that hunch would be ...

2. We just witnessed the literal creation of Mordor and Mount Doom, didn't we?

The Orcs doing all that tunneling wasn't just to attack one village of Men: it was create a direct route for the fast-rushing waters of the secret dam (unleashed by the key) to ignite the sleeping volcano.

3. Galadriel vs Adar is the Good Vs Evil matchup I didn't know I was waiting for.

Their horseback race was visually stunning. And their later confrontation in the prison house gave me "Dark Knight interrogation scene" vibes. Hope this isn't the last tango we see these two dance.

4. Did we get implied confirmation that Arondir and Bronwyn are Theo's parents?

Clearly those two adults are in love and we still haven't seen Theo's ears from under his hair.

Also the notion that each time a human and an elf have gotten together is resulted in tragedy makes me think that Theo may still take a trip to the dark side before all is said and done.

5. The battle was really well done.

Just when you thought the humans had pulled off the improbable victory, they realized they had been fighting mostly their own kind (the mutinous half that left the village earlier to serve the Orcs) and then the rest of the real Orcs were safely picking the humans off by arrows.

It is a little hokey that the Numereon cavalry arrived RIGHT in the nick of time before our major heroes were to be gutted, but **** it, I was sucked in already. Laughed my ass off at the horseback "clotheline" maneuver that knocked the entire Orc company on their butts.

6. Glad that we got the Galadriel and Arondir and the Numereon storylines to all come together, but the Harfoots (and the Stranger) and the Dwarves (and Elrond) are still on the sidelines.

Hopefully next episode addresses how they will play into the rest of the season.

Bottom line: Very happy with this episode. So much earned action, great visuals and epic musical scores throughout, really feels like an uppercut punch by the show against its more legitimate criticisms.

Grade (of enjoyment): 9/10.

[Indian Ink]

Galadriel seems to be having a rather prolonged adolescence. I think she might be the oldest character in this series. She's old enough to have seen the light of the two trees and all the other elder elves in this program are her nephews and grand nephews twice removed.

Or maybe that's why she's so snotty, "How dare you tell me what to do you little whippershappers!"

[ChrisIII]

Wonder if she'll do the whole "Dark Queen" power thing, although I've read that's more of a choice by Jackson than any Tolkien canon thing.

[Celgress]

If we're talking real life races or species, yeah 100% we shouldn't be labeling anything or anyone "evil"...but we're talking orcs here, it's pure fantasy and not even based allegorically on any real cultures so the same doesn't go. Is it cool that D&D has made it so you can be a good orc? Yeah, it opens up some fun new angles for game play, but it doesn't mean another story is wrong for not doing the same thing.

Well, not really because now the concept has been introduced into the story thus changing the status quo. I'm sure this was intentional and kudos to the writers for doing so.

[Celgress]

Galadriel being attracted to Sauron will be hilariously ironic.

Galadriel looking at the smoke coming towards and not moving was a "at that moment, she knew she f..cked up".

I hope this is true. No offense to those who like this version of her but due to her blind hatred, she arguably deserves this fate. Hopefully, it will change her for the better.