The Rings Of Power. Wait, come back! It has the Tolkien seal of approval!

[Gray Lensman]

Well, here we go again
https://www.cbr.com/lotr-stars-suppo...acist-attacks/

Second time this happened first with Obi-Won Kenobi "IT'S NOT THE PISS POOR WRITING AND CHARACTERIZATION IT'S BECUZ THEY R RACIST" crap going on.

I tell ya, creatives should just acknowledge when their product is bad instead of using racism as the weak excuse for poor reception of a show.

Also, gotta Lol at Jeff Bezos: "This is not a cash grab people." Really Jeff, what is it then? A donation to your favorite charity?

And then gotta lol at Elijiah Wood and the other hobbits doing their kumbaya welcome everyone complete with t-shirt solidarity to further cover up the show's shortcomings.

If the racists would only shut up, any legitimate criticism wouldn't be buried underneath all the bile. When people who have never watched it are screaming at the top of their lungs, and most of the anger seems directed at the 'not white' cast members, it becomes very easy to throw all criticism into the pile with the loudest ones.

Of course, that presumes there is a criticism outside of how people look, or how things aren't perfectly lined up to the book. Because people forget that the Lord of the Rings trilogy has a lot, and I mean a LOT, of changes.

[Emperor-of-Dragons]

If the racists would only shut up, any legitimate criticism wouldn't be buried underneath all the bile.

That's a REALLY good point.

[andersonh1]

Every time one of these genre shows is less well received than expected, the people who make it immediately fall back on the "it's a bunch of racists" defense. Have they ever considered that the show or the actors simply aren't very good?

I'm a long-time Tolkien fan. I tried watching episode 1, and while the show looks great and the visuals are excellent, I thought the episode was slow and dull. Most of the dialogue was either flat or someone's poor attempt to mimic Tolkien's language. The philosophical musing on why a stone sinks for example was just laughably bad, and that's only a few minutes into the episode. A lot of the characters seem poorly cast to me, in the sense that I can't picture them as the character. I don't like Galadriel at all, either the performance or the writing. And all the departures from what Tolkien wrote really irritate me. The changes are egregious enough that I would say that this isn't really even an adaptation of his works in any real sense. It's an original story that resembles what Tolkien wrote in a few places and not at all in others.

As for the conversation about race, when the actors and producers often brought up that topic when promoting the show, and many of them have, they are the ones who began the discussion about the racial casting. To then turn around and criticize viewers for responding is churlish, to say the least.

[80sbaby]

Every time one of these genre shows does poorly, the people who make it immediately fall back on the "it's a bunch of racists" defense. Have they ever considered that the show or the actor simply isn't very good?

I'm a long-time Tolkien fan. I tried watching episode 1, and while the show looks great and the visuals are excellent, I thought the episode was slow and dull. Most of the dialogue was either flat or someone's poor attempt to mimic Tolkien's language. The philosophical musing on why a stone sinks for example was just laughably bad, and that's only a few minutes into the episode. A lot of the characters seem poorly cast to me, in the sense that I can't picture them as the character. I don't like Galadriel at all, either the performance or the writing. And all the departures from what Tolkien wrote really irritate me. The changes are egregious enough that I would say that this isn't really even an adaptation of his works in any real sense. It's an original story that resembles what Tolkien wrote in a few places and not at all in others.

As for the conversation about race, when the actors and producers often brought up that topic when promoting the show, and many of them have, they are the ones who began the discussion about the racial casting. To then turn around and criticize viewers for responding is churlish, to say the least.

You are aware that the racists are actually posting their comments, right? Like it's not some imaginary thing without any evidence. My question to you is why, instead of simply saying "Screw those racists," people like yourself want to bury your head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist?

The creator's discussing race/diversity isn't the same thing as being racist. Conflating the two is disingenuous, at best.

Also, where are you getting the idea this is doing poorly?

[Wandering_Wand]

There's a decent conversation to be had here if we all can maintain civility.

I will fully respect and appreciate the line "If the racists would only shut up, any legitimate criticism wouldn't be buried underneath all the bile." as long as we can accept and acknowledge that not every criticism is behind a racist veil. Believe it or not, the majority of people are not racist. Believe it or not, the majority of Tolkien fans are not racist. Believe it or not, the majority of Fantasy genre fans are not racist.

So when we see criticisms on a mass level for something like this, let's not jump to conclusions that all of the people who don't have anything nice to say about something are racist. That's become a very convenient scapegoat and it's beginning to wear itself out, it really is.


As for race of elves, dwarves, etc. people can make the "it's fantasy..." argument all day. That's fine! However, Tolkien was explicit in crafting Middle Earth after an ancient Europe.
In the same vein, I wouldn't expect to see white skinned people in an African based fantasy of the same nature (unless the author was very clear about that). It's really that simple to understand. Now, does every cast member have to be white skinned? Nope. But going to the complete opposite end and making over half of the cast ethnic minorities (I don't know if this is the case with RoP or not, I'm really not keeping count) may not be the best option to some people, either. Find a reasonable middle ground with your audience and source material in mind.

Edit: I'm now going to add what may be the most "inflammatory" thing about this post: we, unfortunately, live in a modern society that has political undercurrents in everything. I mean EVERYTHING. This is not how it's always been and is very much a recent phenomena of the last 5-10 years. EVERYONE seems to make arguments, products, services, etc. from a political lens to certain degrees and it creates ripe situations just as this.

Gone are the days of just enjoying something. Gone are the days of creators just creating when they have literal quotas to attend to, whether you agree with the quotas or not or whether you think they're in good faith or not, they still linger above creativity.

Edit2: I don't know if RoP had quotas, but consider the Academy or Oscars creating quotas for having a certain percentage of minorities (non-whites) to meet their criteria now. Meanwhile, Nigeria is BANNING white models from appearing in their commercials... That's another topic altogether that I won't bother diving into anymore as it doesn't exactly pertain to the topic at hand.

Thanks everyone and have a great day. Let's keep it civil.

[80sbaby]

There's a decent conversation to be had here if we all can maintain civility.

I will fully respect and appreciate the line "If the racists would only shut up, any legitimate criticism wouldn't be buried underneath all the bile." as long as we can accept and acknowledge that not every criticism is behind a racist veil. Believe it or not, the majority of people are not racist. Believe it or not, the majority of Tolkien fans are not racist. Believe it or not, the majority of Fantasy genre fans are not racist.

So when we see criticisms on a mass level for something like this, let's not jump to conclusions that all of the people who don't have anything nice to say about something are racist. That's become a very convenient scapegoat and it's beginning to wear itself out, it really is.


As for race of elves, dwarves, etc. people can make the "it's fantasy..." argument all day. That's fine! However, Tolkien was explicit in crafting Middle Earth after an ancient Europe.
In the same vein, I wouldn't expect to see white skinned people in an African based fantasy of the same nature (unless the author was very clear about that). It's really that simple to understand. Now, does every cast member have to be white skinned? Nope. But going to the complete opposite end and making over half of the cast ethnic minorities (I don't know if this is the case with RoP or not, I'm really not keeping count) may not be the best option to some people, either. Find a reasonable middle ground with your audience and source material in mind.

Nobody has ever claimed the majority of the fans are racist nor that every complaint is. This is another strawman that deflects from the actual racism on display. If you're not saying racist things then you shouldn't worry about it. The post above mine criticized the show and didn't mention race once. I seriously doubt anyone is going to just call them racist for those critiques.

Also, black and brown people existed in ancient Europe, as an fyi. The majority of the cast is still white, btw. So that's another strawman.

[andersonh1]

You are aware that the racists are actually posting their comments, right? Like it's not some imaginary thing without any evidence.

I'm aware that the accusation has been made, but I have seen no actual examples, so I don't know if it's actually happening, and if it is, whether it's five people or five hundred. I do know that for a number of these sci-fi and fantasy properties in the last few years, this same accusation has come up, and it's starting to really look like a knee-jerk reaction to criticism.

There's a decent conversation to be had here if we all can maintain civility.

I will fully respect and appreciate the line "If the racists would only shut up, any legitimate criticism wouldn't be buried underneath all the bile." as long as we can accept and acknowledge that not every criticism is behind a racist veil. Believe it or not, the majority of people are not racist. Believe it or not, the majority of Tolkien fans are not racist. Believe it or not, the majority of Fantasy genre fans are not racist.

So when we see criticisms on a mass level for something like this, let's not jump to conclusions that all of the people who don't have anything nice to say about something are racist. That's become a very convenient scapegoat and it's beginning to wear itself out, it really is.


As for race of elves, dwarves, etc. people can make the "it's fantasy..." argument all day. That's fine! However, Tolkien was explicit in crafting Middle Earth after an ancient Europe.
In the same vein, I wouldn't expect to see white skinned people in an African based fantasy of the same nature (unless the author was very clear about that). It's really that simple to understand. Now, does every cast member have to be white skinned? Nope. But going to the complete opposite end and making over half of the cast ethnic minorities (I don't know if this is the case with RoP or not, I'm really not keeping count) may not be the best option to some people, either. Find a reasonable middle ground with your audience and source material in mind.

Edit: I'm now going to add what may be the most "inflammatory" thing about this post: we, unfortunately, live in a modern society that has political undercurrents in everything. I mean EVERYTHING. This is not how it's always been and is very much a recent phenomena of the last 5-10 years. EVERYONE seems to make arguments, products, services, etc. from a political lens to certain degrees and it creates ripe situations just as this.

Gone are the days of just enjoying something. Gone are the days of creators just creating when they have literal quotas to attend to, whether you agree with the quotas or not or whether you think they're in good faith or not, they still linger above creativity.

I agree, well said.

[Wandering_Wand]

Nobody has ever claimed the majority of the fans are racist nor that every complaint is. This is another strawman that deflects from the actual racism on display. If you're not saying racist things then you shouldn't worry about it. The post above mine criticized the show and didn't mention race once. I seriously doubt anyone is going to just call them racist for those critiques.

Also, black and brown people existed in ancient Europe, as an fyi. The majority of the cast is still white, btw. So that's another strawman.

Look buddy, you're looking for trolls where there are none. Do not try to ignore, or act like you're ignoring, the fact that most people are blaming negative reviews on racism. That is the topic at hand here and that is what I addressed in a very mild mannered and reasonable way. You are trying to put words in my mouth and I do not appreciate it. Please stop.

And your statement about black and brown people existing in Europe... Come on, is this really the hill you want to fall on? Yes, you're right. Look at history of the Mediterranean or Eastern Europe. This isn't the same as Western or Northern Europe, or the British Isles as Tolkien was more focused on.

Please, I don't want to make this into a nasty argument.

[80sbaby]

I'm aware that the accusation has been made, but I have seen no actual examples, so I don't know if it's actually happening, and if it is, whether it's five people or five hundred. I do know that for a number of these sci-fi and fantasy properties in the last few years, this same accusation has come up, and it's starting to really look like a knee-jerk reaction to criticism.

You not seeing it doesn't mean it's not happening. And the reason for the accusation is because its what is happening. And what's the acceptable number of racist comments?

[andersonh1]

You not seeing it doesn't mean it's not happening.

I didn't say it wasn't, I said I don't know if it actually is, or if the comments are real how much of the audience are making them.

I don't automatically accept that racist comments are being made simply because they accusation is made. When I see the evidence, I'll know for sure.

And what's the acceptable number of racist comments?

Zero.

I would say that not all discussion of the casting versus what's in the books is racist, though some would say that it is.

[80sbaby]

Look buddy, you're looking for trolls where there are none. Do not try to ignore, or act like you're ignoring, the fact that most people are blaming negative reviews on racism. That is the topic at hand here and that is what I addressed in a very mild mannered and reasonable way. You are trying to put words in my mouth and I do not appreciate it. Please stop.

And your statement about black and brown people existing in Europe... Come on, is this really the hill you want to fall on? Yes, you're right. Look at history of the Mediterranean or Eastern Europe. This isn't the same as Western or Northern Europe, or the British Isles as Tolkien was more focused on.

Please, I don't want to make this into a nasty argument.

Why would this turn nasty?

Anyways, I'm not looking for anything. I'm reporting what I'm actually seeing and I have zero reason to lie. I didn't put any words in your mouth lol I directly responded to what you said and we all can read.

Um, you brought up the idea of the works being based on Europe, hence my response. And yes, even in Western/Northern Europe there were still black and brown people present.

[80sbaby]

Zero.

I would say that not all discussion of the casting versus what's in the books is racist, though some would say that it is.

Well the initial argument was that it wasn't happening. If you're now admitting that it does happen then, again, all that needs to be said about it is "Screw those racists," as opposed to acting like it's not a big deal.

[Wandering_Wand]

You not seeing it doesn't mean it's not happening. And the reason for the accusation is because its what is happening. And what's the acceptable number of racist comments?

Ideally, none, right? In an ideal world it would be none. We don't live in such a world. The world has never been like that in its entire history, but you'll know that right?

Even so, I will not believe lies that the majority of negative reviews are from racist people as we are often told in scenarios like this. It's simply untrue. I'll acknowledge review bombs happen and there may be many bad actors, but from the people I know of who have watched this show in particular, they are big LotR fans and are very lukewarm towards this show and race has very little if anything to do with it. I've provided my examples and takes on the previous pages. My biggest issues with the show are writing and characterizations and that seems to be the two big issues most other people are having so far.

Out of 1000 genuine negative reviews, do you honestly believe 900 of them are racists or are using race within their negative review? This is nothing more than a convenient scapegoat to avoid criticism.

[j9ac9k]

It's like a depressing game of telephone reading these discussions. I started writing something, but gave up. I abandoned most social media years ago because of how preoccupied I became thinking I could articulate my point on these issues in a reasonable way, but that never matters.

I'm enjoying the show because I have no loyalty to Tolkien and I tend to accept adaptations as their own thing anyway. No point in talking about it though since nobody wants to talk about the actual show.

[80sbaby]

Ideally, none, right? In an ideal world it would be none. We don't live in such a world. The world has never been like that in its entire history, but you'll know that right?

Even so, I will not believe lies that the majority of negative reviews are from racist people as we are often told in scenarios like this. It's simply untrue. I'll acknowledge review bombs happen and there may be many bad actors, but from the people I know of who have watched this show in particular, they are big LotR fans and are very lukewarm towards this show and race has very little if anything to do with it. I've provided my examples and takes on the previous pages. My biggest issues with the show are writing and characterizations and that seems to be the two big issues most other people are having so far.

Out of 1000 genuine negative reviews, do you honestly believe 900 of them are racists or are using race within their negative review? This is nothing more than a convenient scapegoat to avoid criticism.

Why don't you show me where anyone has said that the majority of complaints are from racists?