The Rings Of Power. Wait, come back! It has the Tolkien seal of approval!

[ChrisIII]

', it depends if they're like i-Zombie zombies or Walking Dead zombies. The later are just dead things controlled by a strange virus.

The TWD zombies aren't technically controlled by the virus; it's just that the virus reactivates only part of their brain (basically to move, limited vocalization, and of course eat). Memories, personality, etc are basically all gone though.


The latter description sort of applies to "Last of us" Zombies though, in that they are largely controlled by the fungus (although they're not technically dead)

[Frontier]

This is how I look at it. Sauron is like Hitler and the orcs are Nazis. Galadriel is like a someone who actually lived and fought during WW2. It’s not surprising she would want them all dead and I really can’t blame her. What would people do if they found out Hitler was somehow still alive?

It’s not like the orcs are remorseful and want to live in peace with everyone.

I get that on paper, but it feels like Adar has more charisma and emotion than Galadriel so it feels easier to feel for him than support her.

Yes. Did everyone miss that those poor orcs have tried to murder/enslave all of the villagers and completely destroyed the country they were in? There is only one obvious aggressor here.
What is wrong with people with this whole "The obvious bad guys might not be so bad, the people who are just protecting themselves against hem are mean to them" thing? Is this the result of this era of Disney movies making a sad backstory for every villain to make them more sympathetic, or what? I don't get it.

I guess it's because they're trying to paint the Orcs as basically being forced into being what they are (it doesn't feel like Adar had a choice in becoming a proto-Orc) and in that respect deserve some salvation even if their methods are horrible.

Well, that and Galadriel isn't very likeable so it's easy for people to root more for the Orcs.

[thwhtGuardian]

I don't get the complaint over the view of the orcs. I guess it speaks to the skills of actor who plays Adar that some bought into his, "I just want a home for my children" speech but when you stop and actually think about it logically the sympathy dies pretty quickly. It's not like he was leading the orcs in a heart warming song around the camp fire when the elves busted in and put his people to the sword for no good reason. This is the guy who was running a concentration camp just three episodes ago, and who just last episode made a villager kill a child he had watched grow up and in this very episode pitted those same villagers he brought to his side against their former neighbors in a night time raid. Killing and pillaging is all these orcs have been shown to do, so the whole sympathetic angle just doesn't work.

[HollowSage]

I get that on paper, but it feels like Adar has more charisma and emotion than Galadriel so it feels easier to feel for him than support her.

I guess it's because they're trying to paint the Orcs as basically being forced into being what they are (it doesn't feel like Adar had a choice in becoming a proto-Orc) and in that respect deserve some salvation even if their methods are horrible.

Well, that and Galadriel isn't very likeable so it's easy for people to root more for the Orcs.

Galadriel could be the most unlikable person on the planet but she’s not evil. Just because evil can sometimes come in a charismatic package doesn’t mean it’s not evil.

I don’t understand why anyone would root for the Orcs. They were created to be evil and until some evidence is shown that they can be more than that then that’s what they are. Even if there was a Drizzt equivalent among them as a whole they would still be evil.

[Username taken]

Just finished this episode and THIS was what I was looking forward to in the series.

This was awesome and we are now getting into the "meat" of the story.

[Username taken]

Yeah, I'm not feeling any orc sympathy AT ALL.

I don't think even the creators were trying to make them sympathetic. Their actions have ranged from brutal to downright heinous.

I think Adar was just trying to justify his bullshit. The orcs were created specifically to be "evil" and have pretty much lived up to their design.

EDIT: What I find funny about the orcs is how every single one of them has a British accent.

[Username taken]

I don't get the complaint over the view of the orcs. I guess it speaks to the skills of actor who plays Adar that some bought into his, "I just want a home for my children" speech but when you stop and actually think about it logically the sympathy dies pretty quickly. It's not like he was leading the orcs in a heart warming song around the camp fire when the elves busted in and put his people to the sword for no good reason. This is the guy who was running a concentration camp just three episodes ago, and who just last episode made a villager kill a child he had watched grow up and in this very episode pitted those same villagers he brought to his side against their former neighbors in a night time raid. Killing and pillaging is all these orcs have been shown to do, so the whole sympathetic angle just doesn't work.

My thoughts exactly.

The only way to feel any sympathy towards the orcs is to completely ignore their actions depicted on screen.

[Catlady in training]

Well, that and Galadriel isn't very likeable so it's easy for people to root more for the Orcs.

There was a topic for this phenomenon recently in the Community Forum: Which are truly worse in both fiction and real life: Jerks or Villains?
Some people will judge characters that are the good guys, just unsympathetic for some reason, by a different standard than villains.

[Celgress]

There was a topic for this phenomenon recently in the Community Forum: Which are truly worse in both fiction and real life: Jerks or Villains?
Some people will judge characters that are the good guys, just unsympathetic for some reason, by a different standard than villains.

I think it comes down to the fact the villain knows they are wrong and we the audience should not admire their words or actions, however, many modern "edgy" heroes do or say sometimes equally despicable things yet we are supposed to root for them "because they are the hero yo".

One of my current favorite heroes across all genres is the Manga/Anime character Tanjiro Kamado. Tanjiro becomes a Demon Slayer after his family was slaughtered by the Master Demon and his little sister turned into a demon but he does not become jaded like many of his comrades. Several instances occur where after defeating a vicious demon disciple of the Master Demon (who are more akin to super vampires than demons by Western standards seeing how most were once human) he comforts them as they die despite how horrible they were to him and his allies. At one point a senior Demon Slayer scoffs at Tanjiro's actions "kid, it's just a demon working for our main enemy it deserves to die painfully and alone" an idea Tanjiro rejects. Tanjiro reminds me greatly of classic comic book heroes including Spider-Man and Superman who are good at heart and will defeat a foe who poses a threat to innocents but can still show that foe compassion perhaps compassion the foe does not deserve. Those are my kind of heroes true heroes, IMHO.

[Celgress]

This is how I look at it. Sauron is like Hitler and the orcs are Nazis. Galadriel is like a someone who actually lived and fought during WW2. It’s not surprising she would want them all dead and I really can’t blame her. What would people do if they found out Hitler was somehow still alive?

It’s not like the orcs are remorseful and want to live in peace with everyone.

Well, sure a strong argument can be made for killing Hitler, his inner circle, and the SS but what about everyone else in Nazis Germany? Should all members of the army be killed including conscripts, and Hitler Youth units kids many of whom were completely brainwashed, what of the women who supported the army at home through military work, or the vast majority of German citizens who at the very least turned a blind eye to Nazis atrocities should all those groups be killed as well?

Galadriel said she wants to wipe the Orcs out completely which seems very extreme to me. And before anyone says "all Orcs are mindlessly evil and love to fight" it is made clear in The Return of the King (the book version far more so than the movie) many of the Mordor Orcs who Frodo and Sam encounter would rather stay home in their "holes" than go off to fight in the War of the Ring (especially those on the forced march to the Black Gate). I'm not saying they aren't dangerous and that their soldiers should be spared rather I'm saying genocide is never justified unless there is no other way literally "a you or them" situation of the most extreme stakes possible once all other viable options have been exhausted, and even then it is an utterly horrible thing not to be treated lightly in any way, shape, or form and it should NEVER be driven by hatred or vengeance.

[HollowSage]

Well, sure a strong argument can be made for killing Hitler, his inner circle, and the SS but what about everyone else in Nazis Germany? Should all members of the army be killed including conscripts, and Hitler Youth units kids many of whom were completely brainwashed, what of the women who supported the army at home through military work, or the vast majority of German citizens who at the very least turned a blind eye to Nazis atrocities should all those groups be killed as well?

Galadriel said she wants to wipe the Orcs out completely which seems very extreme to me. And before anyone says "all Orcs are mindlessly evil and love to fight" it is made clear in The Return of the King (the book version far more so than the movie) many of the Mordor Orcs who Frodo and Sam encounter would rather stay home in their "holes" than go off to fight in the War of the Ring (especially those on the forced march to the Black Gate). I'm not saying they aren't dangerous and that their soldiers should be spared rather I'm saying genocide is never justified unless there is no other way literally "a you or them" situation of the most extreme stakes possible once all other viable options have been exhausted, and even then it is an utterly horrible thing not to be treated lightly in any way, shape, or form and it should NEVER be driven by hatred or vengeance.

Well first not all Germans were Nazis. If it was possible to identify them from regular Germans and round them all up IÂ’m pretty sure the adults would have been put to death after the war for their crimes. Some were. Simply being a sympathizer probably not. Although they would need to be watched closely. Germany is on guard against that even today.

As for the Orcs. They are literally an evil abomination created through corruption to be tools of war. They are more akin to rabid animals than men. Putting them down can be viewed as not only necessary for everyoneÂ’s safety but also as putting them out of their misery.

What else can you do with an army of bloodthirsty orcs? Let them roam free?

[Frontier]

Galadriel could be the most unlikable person on the planet but she’s not evil. Just because evil can sometimes come in a charismatic package doesn’t mean it’s not evil.

I don’t understand why anyone would root for the Orcs. They were created to be evil and until some evidence is shown that they can be more than that then that’s what they are. Even if there was a Drizzt equivalent among them as a whole they would still be evil.

I get that, but it doesn't feel like the writers are writing Galadriel as someone we should agree with either because her aggression and propensity for violence seems to be indicative of how far she's falling.

Yeah, I'm not feeling any orc sympathy AT ALL.

I don't think even the creators were trying to make them sympathetic. Their actions have ranged from brutal to downright heinous.

I think Adar was just trying to justify his bullshit. The orcs were created specifically to be "evil" and have pretty much lived up to their design.

EDIT: What I find funny about the orcs is how every single one of them has a British accent.

I think Adar feels he's justified...purely from his own perspective, because he relates more to the Orcs and see them as his people (and maybe in some regards fellow victims of Sauron) than he does to anyone else, so anything in service to their survival and longevity seems "right" to him because they're his people, no matter who gets hurt in the process.

[Username taken]

I get that, but it doesn't feel like the writers are writing Galadriel as someone we should agree with either because her aggression and propensity for violence seems to be indicative of how far she's falling.

I think Adar feels he's justified...purely from his own perspective, because he relates more to the Orcs and see them as his people (and maybe in some regards fellow victims of Sauron) than he does to anyone else, so anything in service to their survival and longevity seems "right" to him because they're his people, no matter who gets hurt in the process.

Yeah, I think Adar feels somehow justified.

But in the midst of his speech, he said he killed Sauron which isn’t true (or at least from our perspective we know it can’t be true). That’s why I’m skeptical of the guy’s words.

IMO, the orcs shouldn’t even be allowed to exist at all. They are mockeries of nature and killing them doesn’t just prevent their chaos, it allows whomever they were before they were converted into monsters to be “free”.

[Username taken]

Well first not all Germans were Nazis. If it was possible to identify them from regular Germans and round them all up IÂ’m pretty sure the adults would have been put to death after the war for their crimes. Some were. Simply being a sympathizer probably not. Although they would need to be watched closely. Germany is on guard against that even today.

As for the Orcs. They are literally an evil abomination created through corruption to be tools of war. They are more akin to rabid animals than men. Putting them down can be viewed as not only necessary for everyoneÂ’s safety but also as putting them out of their misery.

What else can you do with an army of bloodthirsty orcs? Let them roam free?

Exactly.

There’s no real world analogy to be made with the orcs.

They are basically tools of war.

[Celgress]

...I think Adar feels he's justified...purely from his own perspective, because he relates more to the Orcs and see them as his people (and maybe in some regards fellow victims of Sauron) than he does to anyone else, so anything in service to their survival and longevity seems "right" to him because they're his people, no matter who gets hurt in the process.

True, no one here (or so I hope) is condoning Adar's actions or philosophy or the actions of his Orcs. Some of us are troubled by the portrayal of Galadriel as a hateful semi-genocidal maniac, it isn't a good look (to put it mildly).