Can Diversity Casting cause more harm than good?

[QuinnFillory]

There has a big push for more diverse casting in movies and television in the past several years. While this has led to more roles for people of color, LGBTQ+, women and other marginalized groups, it has also led to a lot of backlash. As a result, there is always controversy whenever someone who isn't a straight, white male gets a major role. But there are other areas of the discussion that aren't talked about, like tokenism and roles that don't really match the person playing it. Here's an article talking about it:
https://www.newsweek.com/when-divers...pinion-1736903

[hyped78]

You're probably going to get backlash for this post/ poll (I hope I'm wrong). Reading the article now - it's interesting (and probably controversial) and I do agree that "tokenism" doesn't actually help the groups it's supposed to help.

Trailers for Pinocchio and LOTR Rings of Power on Youtube are filled with troll reviews which are, in a way, related to that.

[CSTowle]

I've yet to see the harm, and there's pretty strong box office numbers and merch sales to show the good. There's a small but vocal group of folks who would rather see casting stuck in the '60s, but I think most people who aren't gaining representation on screen don't really care or if asked see it as a good thing, and people who are no longer having to settle for sidekick and comedic relief roles for representation (if that, for Native Americans and many Asian communities) getting to see someone like them taking the lead onscreen is a very good thing.

I'd love to hear some examples where one might say diverse casting caused more harm than good, or a specific harm that it caused?

[hyped78]

I've yet to see the harm, and there's pretty strong box office numbers and merch sales to show the good. There's a small but vocal group of folks who would rather see casting stuck in the '60s, but I think most people who aren't gaining representation on screen don't really care or if asked see it as a good thing, and people who are no longer having to settle for sidekick and comedic relief roles for representation (if that, for Native Americans and many Asian communities) getting to see someone like them taking the lead onscreen is a very good thing.

I'd love to hear some examples where one might say diverse casting caused more harm than good, or a specific harm that it caused?

How would you measure “harm” or more “harm than good”? Lost sales?

And how do you measure “good” in this context, for that matter?

[thwhtGuardian]

How would you measure “harm” or more “harm than good”? Lost sales?

And how do you measure “good” in this context, for that matter?

It's simple, racist trolls on the internet don't amount to many people in terms of the general audience, so the truth is "no real harm".

The whole, "get woke, go broke" thing is a silly fantasy for racists and nothing more.

[Kirby101]

Let's return to Shakespeare's time. White men only, in all the roles!

[Mormel]

Let's return to Shakespeare's time. White men only, in all the roles!

Lucas Hedges as Jean Grey in the MCU, make it happen Marvel Studios!

[numberthirty]

Can?

Like some sort of "Let's Take A Bunch Of Time To Worry About Something That Will Never Actually Come To Pass..." sort a scenario?

Sure. Anything could happen.

Meanwhile, out it the real world?

I might as well be thinking over the downside of humanity eventually growing wings.

[Gray Lensman]

I've yet to see the harm, and there's pretty strong box office numbers and merch sales to show the good. There's a small but vocal group of folks who would rather see casting stuck in the '60s, but I think most people who aren't gaining representation on screen don't really care or if asked see it as a good thing, and people who are no longer having to settle for sidekick and comedic relief roles for representation (if that, for Native Americans and many Asian communities) getting to see someone like them taking the lead onscreen is a very good thing.

I'd love to hear some examples where one might say diverse casting caused more harm than good, or a specific harm that it caused?

The biggest harm I see is when a studio thinks diverse casting is enough by itself, and forgets to get a good script or behind the camera staff to go along with it. Then, when the final product isn't good, they take one of two routes: they either blame audience bigotry, or decide that it isn't possible to make money with a lead from whatever group that film was based on.

It's really lazy executives causing that problem in the end though.

And even without that we'd still have all in angry incels launching hate campaigns over something stupid.

[LordMikel]

I've yet to see the harm, and there's pretty strong box office numbers and merch sales to show the good. There's a small but vocal group of folks who would rather see casting stuck in the '60s, but I think most people who aren't gaining representation on screen don't really care or if asked see it as a good thing, and people who are no longer having to settle for sidekick and comedic relief roles for representation (if that, for Native Americans and many Asian communities) getting to see someone like them taking the lead onscreen is a very good thing.

I'd love to hear some examples where one might say diverse casting caused more harm than good, or a specific harm that it caused?

I will say it is harmful when it is simply tokenism. The new Doogie Houser (Doogie Kameāloha on Disney+) or Punky Brewster on Peacock. It is for a younger audience, but as they were introducing characters I felt it was more a check box. Gay character, check. Non conformist character, check. Because the characters were simply tokens, they didn't get to evolve beyond that. Which is really too bad.

Because there are shows like Instinct featuring gay lead, absolutely great. The Inbetween, the main character had gay parents. But they were so much more then that. So when it is simply check box writing, I roll my eyes, cause we should get more.

I always like to mention the web comic Winter Moon. The main character is gay, and he is the best character, I applaud him when he does anything. It is so awesome. Anytime someone is asks, "what is a good comic with a gay character, I point them to that comic.

[Zelena]

I chose “Only if it helps the role”… but actually I think it depends on the subject.

If it’s science-fiction and you want to show aliens, it’s probably better to show people that are alike… True, as a race, we are diverse, but it would add something that is unnecssary…

In other subjects and if it really doesn’t matter, why not?

[Jackalope89]

Not against diverse casting. In adaptations, it can be fine so long as the main story isn't changed. But a bit more than just because of tokenism or because certain parts of the fandom already had a headcanon that simply didn't exist (looking at you, Beauty and the Beast Live Action, you did BOTH). Though the "turning red heads into *insert minority*" is a little harsh on the ginger community. One of the bigger ones had to be retconned into a cousin of sorts already.

[CSTowle]

I agree with the point that some will defend projects with diverse casting as being victims of racism or sexism if they fail because of the small (but again, very vocal) section of the internet that s##ts on all of these things when in reality they either failed to make a quality product (SNL women on "Ghostbusters" reboot, new "Charlie's Angels") or it just didn't catch on with an audience.

But that's usually someone hurt and coming to terms with their own failures, it's always easier to lash out and blame others and you're not going to find very many people willing to step up and defend that racist vocal minority.

On the point of box-checking/tokenism, I'd agree it's weird to see a group of 5 friends and there's one white person, one black, one latino, one East Asian, and one flamboyant gay guy (and where's the lesbian representation?). It's easy to be cynical and say, "OK, I see what's going on."

On the other hand, as I pointed out earlier, if you weren't white growing up until very recently you usually didn't get to see someone on screen who looked like you at all. If you did, they were at best the good friend/comedic relief/villain. Never the main character or love interest.

Part of changing that is taking a moment and asking if they made an effort during casting to be more inclusive. This will not be seamless, at times it will be transparent and perhaps bump you from immersion, and if you're a white person used to having more or less a monopoly on the juicy roles it's going to look like lost opportunities for white folk. Which it is, but only because of that former monopoly that was an unfair situation to begin with, that we're now trying to correct. It's my go-to explanation when someone asks "just what the heck is white privilege?"

Being able to see a white male face on a poster or as the lead to a major action or blockbuster movie or video game or TV show and being able to project yourself on that role (as ridiculous as that might actually be for some of us) and to have the privilege to think nothing of it, where if you were a black or Korean or latino child you knew that this wasn't meant for you. You were constantly reminded, however subtly and unintentionally, that you were the "other". That you were not the "norm" or default. You had to be reminded constantly where we (I'm a white fella) had the privilege to never have to think about it, because the world and culture around us was shaped by and for people like us.

If I had one complaint it would be overrepresentation in the diversity mix of black and Jewish/Hebrew people. Latinos, East Asians, Native Americans, etc. have far fewer opportunities and are subject far more often to the old stereotypes and side roles (and this with at least the Latino population being larger than the black and Jewish/Hebrew populations in this country).

[CSTowle]

How would you measure “harm” or more “harm than good”? Lost sales?

And how do you measure “good” in this context, for that matter?

I see little to no harm. Perhaps you could ask the OP what their definitions are, as they went to the trouble to make the thread and poll?

[Gray Lensman]

When I think about the "checking boxes" issue, I've come to realize that many shows have been checking boxes for decades, it's just that the boxes have changed.

I'm sure most posters here are familiar with the classic roster trope of the 5 man band. They are basically boxes to check for a five member team - and it isn't just comics that do this. I'm sure most anime fans can tell you all the archetypes that appear in a harem love comedy, and American teen movies have their own boxes to check. The push for diversity has merely changed the boxes - sometimes done well, other times done poorly.