Can Diversity Casting cause more harm than good?

[Username taken]

Black actors are under-represented in lead roles in movies. McKinsey actually studied it. Only 11% from 2015-2019. Yes, other groups are also under-represented but the film industry is still overly white and male, including acting. Behind the camera - producers, directors, writers - it was even worse.

In streaming, in 2019, McKinsey found Black actors were less than 5% of leads. Only place they were slightly over-represented as leads was cable at 14%.

Exactly this.

[9th.]

Poll asks the wrong question... why is it diversity casting instead of just casting? Does the process suddenly change if the performer isn't white? Or straight? Or male?

There inlies the problem with this whole conversation, it makes all other minorities seem like "others" and automatically out of place.

[9th.]

The reason for this is because black characters were fairly close to mainstream already, if not already there and it took a long time to get to that point. It isn't because of some favoritism towards black actors over those from other minority groups.

Let's not pretend that black female leads, let alone black LGBT leads are that common.

It's only just now becoming more common, black folks have had to fight tooth and nail to be included which more often than not gets categorized as "complaining,".

[CSTowle]

I have to push back a bit on this and a couple of things need to be clarified.

1. Black people are the second largest racial group in the US and have been drastically under-represented over time. Latino/Hispanic is not a race as a good chunk of Latinos/Hispanics are white. Progress regarding black representation is only just recently been made on this front. The second largest ethnic group in the US is Latino/Hispanic and I also agree that greater representation of the Hispanic community is necessary too.

2. A lot of "black" representation features a lot of light-skinned biracial people. The US only just started recognizing biracial people as a group, for the longest time because of the passed-down culture of "one-drop laws" biracial people are considered black. Pure black representation is still pretty terrible. It's a point of discussion within the black community about how much people of purely black descent have been marginalized but the white entertainment industry is very quick to pick light-skinned biracial people.

I do agree that we should see other races represented more but we shouldn't act like black representation is analogous to diversity when said diversity still features performers that are partially white. Also, as Agent Z pointed black female LGBT representation is still sorely lacking.

There are a few things there which are topics that are difficult for anyone to comment on, let alone straight white males like myself. First, what counts as "white latino" vs "non-white latino" and if they're the second largest group (by far) over black Americans and we need to differentiate "white latino" from just "white" why would they not need representation as well? Second, and similarly, who gets to decide who's "black enough" and do we need to classify (and thus probably elevate or marginalize some) folks as "X percentage/fractional black" and accept or deny them jobs based upon such percentages?

And in a country in which almost nobody who has had family in this country for more than a century is 100% "black" or "white" is this even a serious conversation? As to black Americans being historically underrepresented over time, we're in agreement which is why I voted that there is value in striving for diversity in casting (and, to your point, behind the camera). But while black actors and others in the industry are making gains and creating their own industry within the industry no other group is enjoying that same relative success. That's something that should be addressed, and not dismissed. It's not like black Americans are or should be first in line to get opportunities and the rest can wait until they're satisfied, all groups have an equal (representatively speaking) right to opportunities.

[Username taken]

There are a few things there which are topics that are difficult for anyone to comment on, let alone straight white males like myself. First, what counts as "white latino" vs "non-white latino" and if they're the second largest group (by far) over black Americans and we need to differentiate "white latino" from just "white" why would they not need representation as well? Second, and similarly, who gets to decide who's "black enough" and do we need to classify (and thus probably elevate or marginalize some) folks as "X percentage/fractional black" and accept or deny them jobs based upon such percentages?

And in a country in which almost nobody who has had family in this country for more than a century is 100% "black" or "white" is this even a serious conversation? As to black Americans being historically underrepresented over time, we're in agreement which is why I voted that there is value in striving for diversity in casting (and, to your point, behind the camera). But while black actors and others in the industry are making gains and creating their own industry within the industry no other group is enjoying that same relative success. That's something that should be addressed, and not dismissed. It's not like black Americans are or should be first in line to get opportunities and the rest can wait until they're satisfied, all groups have an equal (representatively speaking) right to opportunities.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not dismissing the need for greater representation of other groups. I’m pointing out that there’s still room for progress because black people are still under-represented. No one is talking about a purity test for black people, what I’m saying is that a lot of black people are still marginalized because of their skin color. It’s a complicated and quite frankly messy discussion particularly in the US. Latino is a very, very broad classification and while I can’t speak to it directly, I’m pretty sure the experiences of the white Latinos differ sharply from the non-white Latinos. Even amongst Afro-latinas, there are sharp differences in their experiences because of how marginalized dark-skinned Afro-latinas are. Some years back an Afro-Latina performer- Amara La Negra (a dark-skinned Afro-Latina) explained just how much discrimination she had faced trying to get ahead in the entertainment industry. She contrasted this with Cardi B who is much lighter but found it easier to attain mainstream success because she’s much lighter.

When discussing diversity and people say “black people are over-represented” it completely muddies the entire discussion and makes it much more complicated (which I was trying to point out earlier). This complication comes about when one starts looking at the racial composition of other groups and just how marginalized other groups are within said diverse groups. It makes it look like greater black representation is somehow taking away from other races when this isn’t a zero-sum game. The US has run with a certain type of representation that isn’t altogether perfect but it’s progress.

Of course I agree that all groups should be properly represented but when people say black people are over-represented, that isn’t really true across the board when you start to look closely at how said representation is being implemented.

[CSTowle]

It's true, it was unfair to frame it as black people are in a position of privilege rather than of greater privilege than some. My apologies. Clearly the privileged position is and likely will be for some time white folk like myself. I am still not comfortable in wading into the classification of latino or black folk because I feel even if I tried in earnest it would be a potential landmine, and I'm sure there's probably a pretty healthy debate on some of those issues within their own communities (let alone among outsiders).

[AnakinFlair]

I'll tell you what. In general, I've had a problem with color-blind casting (which I would say is another name for Diversity Casting), only because if I see a character I've know for years being adapted to the screen, I want to see someone that looks like the characters. But a lot of the time that feeling goes away when I actually see the finished product. Birds of Prey was a good example, I HATED having a Black Dinah Lance right up until I saw the performance, at which point I was sold.

Also, seeing the reaction videos of little Black girls being so excited over the live-action Little Mermaid was a bit of an eye-opener for me. Being a white male, I never really appreciated how much representation meant to someone else until I saw that.

All that said, while I don't think it's harmful to the public, it can be harmful to the actors themselves. Just look at all of the hate actors of color have gotten for being in major franchises, from Kelly Marie Tran in The Last Jedi, to every actor of color in The Rings of Power. The amount of vitriol they've had to put up with, just for doing their jobs, is astounding.

[CSTowle]

Perhaps the answer is to just keep doing it until it becomes so normal and expected that anyone seen as getting upset by it will be rightfully ignored or shunned.

[Mister Mets]

I have to push back a bit on this and a couple of things need to be clarified.

1. Black people are the second largest racial group in the US and have been drastically under-represented over time. Latino/Hispanic is not a race as a good chunk of Latinos/Hispanics are white. Progress regarding black representation is only just recently been made on this front. The second largest ethnic group in the US is Latino/Hispanic and I also agree that greater representation of the Hispanic community is necessary too.

2. A lot of "black" representation features a lot of light-skinned biracial people. The US only just started recognizing biracial people as a group, for the longest time because of the passed-down culture of "one-drop laws" biracial people are considered black. Pure black representation is still pretty terrible. It's a point of discussion within the black community about how much people of purely black descent have been marginalized but the white entertainment industry is very quick to pick light-skinned biracial people.

I do agree that we should see other races represented more but we shouldn't act like black representation is analogous to diversity when said diversity still features performers that are partially white. Also, as Agent Z pointed black female LGBT representation is still sorely lacking.

This gets to some other messy wrinkles if we start looking at representation of subgroups. Who should determine what counts as pure black for characters or cast? If a protected class is overrepresented, which might occur with some mixed-race people, should there be caps on them in the interests of equity?

It can be a bit misleading to look at the representation of white people, since some groups of white people will be overrepresented but others might not be. For example, there are going to be more coastal white people than would be expected from their share of the population. If white people from Middle America are underrepresented, there may be a backlash to anything that makes it harder for them to get work.

[Kirby101]

It can be a bit misleading to look at the representation of white people, since some groups of white people will be overrepresented but others might not be. For example, there are going to be more coastal white people than would be expected from their share of the population. If white people from Middle America are underrepresented, there may be a backlash to anything that makes it harder for them to get work.

This is just so wrong in so many ways. And is such a strawman when talking about racial diversity.

[80sbaby]

Perhaps the answer is to just keep doing it until it becomes so normal and expected that anyone seen as getting upset by it will be rightfully ignored or shunned.

I mean yes, that's exactly what typically happens. Which is one of the reasons people who complain about "forced diversity" come off as ignorant (at best.) Diversity had NEVER just happened. It's always been forced.

Now as to whether it can help or harm, my answer would be it definitely helps. Normalizing marginalized groups in media is a big step towards their acceptance in society. The more people see something, the more acceptable it tends to become.

[Mister Mets]

This is just so wrong in so many ways. And is such a strawman when talking about racial diversity.

If we're talking about subgroups of people of color, it makes sense to consider representation of subgroups of white people. These include groups with purchasing and political power.

I'll tell you what. In general, I've had a problem with color-blind casting (which I would say is another name for Diversity Casting), only because if I see a character I've know for years being adapted to the screen, I want to see someone that looks like the characters. But a lot of the time that feeling goes away when I actually see the finished product. Birds of Prey was a good example, I HATED having a Black Dinah Lance right up until I saw the performance, at which point I was sold.

Also, seeing the reaction videos of little Black girls being so excited over the live-action Little Mermaid was a bit of an eye-opener for me. Being a white male, I never really appreciated how much representation meant to someone else until I saw that.

All that said, while I don't think it's harmful to the public, it can be harmful to the actors themselves. Just look at all of the hate actors of color have gotten for being in major franchises, from Kelly Marie Tran in The Last Jedi, to every actor of color in The Rings of Power. The amount of vitriol they've had to put up with, just for doing their jobs, is astounding.

Some people want to go beyond colorblind casting for what's term color-conscious casting, which is a bit different, although sometimes useful.

The vitriol against some younger celebrities is disgusting. It's tough navigating a loss of privacy and sudden scrutiny without having to handle that.

There may be times colorblind casting is distracting. For example, the decision to make Johnny Storm but not Sue Storm black in the Josh Trank Fantastic Four film was well-meaning but distracting, considering how unusual it would be to have a black couple with an adopted white child.

[Jackalope89]

What about redheads though? A bit tongue in cheek, but almost every time an inclusive actor/character is chosen, they replace the redhead. Wally West being a prime example.

Just curious as to why its always the gingers.

[Mister Mets]

What about redheads though? A bit tongue in cheek, but almost every time an inclusive actor/character is chosen, they replace the redhead. Wally West being a prime example.

Just curious as to why its always the gingers.

It kinda makes sense.

Redheads are a relatively small percentage of the population, so casting can be limited.

At a time when most major comics characters were white, red hair was a way to distinguish newer characters who are important to a series but not as important as the lead.
Mary Jane was not Peter's first love interest.
Lana Lang had to look different from Lois Lane.
Jimmy Olsen had to be recognizable in Daily Bugle crowd scenes.
Wally West was the original Flash's sidekick.
Barbara Gordon had to stand out visually from other women in the series, while also having a secret identity as a modest librarian.

At this point, there are much less restrictions against minority characters, and diversity is not represented through hair color.

[CSTowle]

Compared to their percentages in real life, blondes and redheads have always been overrepresented but they're also more appealing to many men than black or brown hair. Same with blue eyes. Brown/brown is the most common combination in the world, and thus usually considered the least interesting visually but it probably doesn't help in the diversity discussion because these traits are almost exclusively white ones. Though those with black/brown skin and green eyes tend to get a lot of attention as well.

As far as cultural diversity, a different discussion from racial diversity, it may be that we should look at representation there though I would say it's not as historically skewed in favor of urban vs rural as it is white vs everything else. Small town life, "traditional values", christian traditions and such were actually probably more represented in the mainstream in previous generations and culture started shifting away from Middle America and towards the larger urban population.

There's still plenty of representation, and with a splintered media with TV/streaming/etc. if you're looking for entertainment targeted at a rural white audience you won't lack options. Far more options than say latino, East Asian, or Native American audiences.