Are Earths 1985 and 52 still around?

[D.Z]

Jon never said that they exist in the Multiverse; he just said that they exist.

Nah the Multiverse grows, and keeps growing
06d13dg3pso81.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/Nstvj3M/06d13dg3pso81.png

[Dataweaver]

Nah the Multiverse grows, and keeps growing
06d13dg3pso81.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/Nstvj3M/06d13dg3pso81.png

…stated in a panel right after the Multiverse had been shrunk down to one world.

I believe that Jon is using the term “Multiverse” here in a broader sense than you are; if the term had been coined back then, he would have said that “the Divine Continuum grows, and keeps growing.” But again, the “Divine Continuum” terminology hadn't been invented yet; so he used “Multiverse” as the existing term that came closest to capturing the essence of the idea.

On the meta-level, Johns was saying what Hypertime proponents have been saying all along: there's a Kingdom of wonders out there, something too vast to fit in a neat and orderly structure. And yes, it's always growing; because even when something is destroyed in the Omniverse, it lives on in Hypertime. That's what happened when “Earth 1 becomes Earth 1985”: Earth 1 was destroyed in the Crisis (technically, after it; but definitely as a result of it), but lives on in Hypertime. That's the way Hypertime works. Likewise with Earth-52.

[Restingvoice]

Oy this is confusing enough without interpreting stuffs not specifically mentioned in the text

The birth of the speed force rattles the Metaverse
Reality divides creating the Multiverse

I get it though
That does sound like Hypertime
When the timeline branch out it creates a new reality
When a new Earth is born it is a new reality
because Space and time are connected
So when reality is divided into two, so is both space and time
but to simplify it, they call it the Multiverse
Which currently Johns interpret it as "just the space part"
but a Verse should include both space and time because they're the Reality

I don't want to call Metaverse just Hypertime yet though because I'm still confused about that part
but basically the Multiverse are a collection of alternate realities, branched out because of the shift in how reality work, and since reality include both space and time, Hypertime is also included
The totality of reality which include space and time is Divine Continuum

So when he said reality divides creating the Multiverse, it's a change in the Divine Continuum

What I was trying to say I already forgot

[Dataweaver]

You need to take Flashpoint Beyond into account as well. Not just the diagrams, although those are useful; but also the explanation of them that was given in the fifth issue. Basically, there are two sites to the Divine Continuum, which is John's s term for what you're calling Reality: there's Space, or the Omniverse, which includes the Metaverse, which is identified as Earth-0; and there is Time, or Hypertime, which is outside of the Omniverse. There are some people who decided to leave the Omniverse and hide out in Hypertime until the Dark Crisis blew over.

[D.Z]

It's more likely Blue Shift turned Earth 1985 and Earth 52 into true Multiverse worlds. No hypertime was stated.

Metaverse and hypertime are two separate functions. But hypertime can effect the ominverse. Anyway Johnns probably changed the answers years later. At one point the ominiverse didn't exist.

Still infinite multiverse is better to me than Hypertime. It's just more real in the space sense, and shouldn't been limited to 52.

[Dataweaver]

It's more likely Blue Shift turned Earth 1985 and Earth 52 into true Multiverse worlds. No hypertime was stated.

Metaverse and hypertime are two separate functions. But hypertime can effect the ominverse. Anyway Johnns probably changed the answers years later. At one point the ominiverse didn't exist.

Still infinite multiverse is better to me than Hypertime. It's just more real in the space sense, and shouldn't been limited to 52.

No blue shift was mentioned in Doomsday Clock either.

I think that last part is the key to it, though: it's not that there's any flaws in my arguments; it's that you don't want it to be hyper-time, because you prefer Omniverse.

[Restingvoice]

You need to take Flashpoint Beyond into account as well. Not just the diagrams, although those are useful; but also the explanation of them that was given in the fifth issue. Basically, there are two sites to the Divine Continuum, which is John's s term for what you're calling Reality: there's Space, or the Omniverse, which includes the Metaverse, which is identified as Earth-0; and there is Time, or Hypertime, which is outside of the Omniverse. There are some people who decided to leave the Omniverse and hide out in Hypertime until the Dark Crisis blew over.

Yeah I remember that but it's too much and I already forgot what I was trying to say.

But basically, while space time is connected it's also separate, because people from one space can travel through time to arrive in another space. Linearly this is time travel, but since Hypertime exist they can also jump to a parallel time and therefore parallel space.

The tree branches of Hypertime, the transitional stream where people are in the middle of time travel be it linear or parallel, is where they hide from Space that is the Omniverse right

[D.Z]

Limbo and Vanishing points are other functions of the time part.

[Dataweaver]

Yeah I remember that but it's too much and I already forgot what I was trying to say.

But basically, while space time is connected it's also separate, because people from one space can travel through time to arrive in another space. Linearly this is time travel, but since Hypertime exist they can also jump to a parallel time and therefore parallel space.

The tree branches of Hypertime, the transitional stream where people are in the middle of time travel be it linear or parallel, is where they hide from Space that is the Omniverse right

My take on it is this: the two sides of the Divine Continuum are, in effect, “inside” and “outside”. They can also be called “spacelike separation” and “timelike separation”. Things within the Omniverse can be accessed by overcoming the spacelike separation between them; this is mostly some through vibrational signatures, which is what the Flash excels at. Timelike separations require some sort of time travel capability to overcome, though often not the usual future/past mechanisms. Instead, some sort of “lateral time travel” is needed. Although if you know where the difference point is, a crude way to do it is to travel back in time to the difference point, push for whatever change would be needed to get you into the other timeline, and then go forward in time to the point you're trying to reach. That lets you navigate within the Hypertime Tree instead of trying to jump from one branch to another.

[Dataweaver]

Limbo and Vanishing points are other functions of the time part.

True, unless you take the Map of the Multiverse literally. According to it, Limbo is sandwiched between the Sphere of the Gods and the Monitor Sphere.

But then, I'm leery of taking it too literally.

[D.Z]

Still nobody knows what the new full structure will be yet. Maybe Johns will move limbo or he created the time limbo, where discarded or forgotten time characters are. Dunno.

There were other limbos, the pre crisis version which was the borderlands between dimensions. But it was destroyed.

[bat39]

Oy this is confusing enough without interpreting stuffs not specifically mentioned in the text

The birth of the speed force rattles the Metaverse
Reality divides creating the Multiverse

I get it though
That does sound like Hypertime
When the timeline branch out it creates a new reality
When a new Earth is born it is a new reality
because Space and time are connected
So when reality is divided into two, so is both space and time
but to simplify it, they call it the Multiverse
Which currently Johns interpret it as "just the space part"
but a Verse should include both space and time because they're the Reality

I don't want to call Metaverse just Hypertime yet though because I'm still confused about that part
but basically the Multiverse are a collection of alternate realities, branched out because of the shift in how reality work, and since reality include both space and time, Hypertime is also included
The totality of reality which include space and time is Divine Continuum

So when he said reality divides creating the Multiverse, it's a change in the Divine Continuum

What I was trying to say I already forgot

Okay, let's try to keep it simple, going purely by the Doomsday Clock explanation.

There is a Metaverse that is the 'main' DC earth. Its the same world we first saw in Action Comics # 1, and its the world we're following in any 'mainline continuity' DC book today.

Periodically, something happens to change the history of the Metaverse (and more specifically the history of Superman, who's the lynchpin of the Metaverse). And whenever this happens, the previous timeline/incarnation of the Metaverse gets preserved on a parallel earth. This was the birth of the Multiverse.

When Barry was struck by lightning and the Speed Force was born, that was apparently the first big shift in the Metaverse. The previous incarnation of the Metaverse (i.e. the Golden Age) was preserved on a parallel earth that came to be known as Earth 2, while the Metaverse itself was now home to the Silver Age DCU (aka Earth 1). (Personally, I still believe Krona's experiment also played a role in the creation of the Multiverse, but I'm not sure where this fits in with the Doomsday Clock reveals...maybe the Multiverse always existed but the first change in the Metaverse is what created Earth 2 which then got added to this Multiverse).

Essentially, two things happen here in parallel, one concerning space and the other concerning time. When the Golden Age DC morphs into the Silver Age DC, that's a change concerning time (a timeline where Alan Scott is GL and Superman started in 1938 is replaced by a timeline where Hal Jordan is GL and Superman started in 1956). But in parallel, a new earth is created in the Multiverse that's based on the Golden Age DC, and that's a change concerning space.

What this means is that back in the Silver Age, Barry could travel across a vibrational barrier in space and visit Jay on Earth 2. But if Barry was aware of Hypertime back then, it might have been possible for him to travel to a previous timeline of what he knew as Earth 1 where he would also meet a version of Jay.

I think this distinction also explains away a lot of minor differences between the actual Golden Age as published and Earth 2. Because the Golden Age as published occurred in the Metaverse, while Earth 2 is a parallel earth that represents (with maybe 99.9% accuracy) the previous incarnation of the Metaverse. So this maybe explains stuff like how the Golden Age Superman was working in the Daily Planet under Perry White during most of the 40's, while the Earth 2 Superman always worked in the Daily Star under George Taylor.

Now when COIE happened, the Multiverse was destroyed (or rather, a few remaining earths were collapsed into the one remaining earth). The creation of this new merged earth was another big shift to the Metaverse. So, as usual, a parallel earth was created which reflected the previous era of the Metaverse. But since the local Multiverse was destroyed, Earth 1985 probably only existed somewhere further out, in the larger Omniverse. At the same timeline, the Silver Age/Bronze Age DCU continued to be one of the many alternate/past timelines of the Metaverse/Post-COIE earth - as reflected by Superman v2 # 200 where the classic Superman origin appears as one of Superman's possible histories, alongside the Byrne/MOS and Birthright versions. So that's Hypertime in play. And later, during IC, Alex Luthor's tuning fork machine is able to temporarily resurrect the Multiverse by tapping into the Post-COIE earth because traces of other realities (either other timelines of the Metaverse or remnants of destroyed Multiverse earths) lie dormant in the Metaverse through Hypertime. This explains why earths featuring the DKR universe or Kingdom Come were among those created. This also explains the new Multiverse that is born after 52 and how Mr. Mind's intervention changes the history of each earth.

The basic idea is that the Multiverse is concerned with space and Hypertime is concerned with, well, time. The Hypertime exists independent of the Multiverse...it exists whether there is a Multiverse or isn't one. But they are in a sense intertwined. Because the Multiverse contains earths derived from Hypertime (either past incarnations of the Metaverse, or alternate timelines). In fact, Hypertime can be tapped to create a new Multiverse. And even if the Multiverse is destroyed, you can find some version of those lost realities in Hypertime, because in a sense they all came from Hypertime.

And now my head hurts!

[ShinySephiroth]

This makes sense in the context of the Pre-Flashpoint Superman and Lois as well - they're the Superman and Lois of Earth 0 from a previous timeline who then ended up in the current (read: New 52) timeline. And they eventually merged with their New 52 counterparts to be folded into the current (now read: Rebirth) timeline.

Thank you! I had issues with this because it seemed they had brought back pre-FP Superman before knowing Johns' Rebirth plans so Superman Reborn was trying to fix this, but it never made sense to me how this Superman could exist if New 52 Superman was essentially him but a piece of him ripped out by Manhattan... seeing this as a snapshot of him from a certain point in time that "filled the hole" New 52 Superman had completely fixes that in my mind! ^_^

[ShinySephiroth]

Okay, let's try to keep it simple, going purely by the Doomsday Clock explanation.

There is a Metaverse that is the 'main' DC earth. Its the same world we first saw in Action Comics # 1, and its the world we're following in any 'mainline continuity' DC book today.

Periodically, something happens to change the history of the Metaverse (and more specifically the history of Superman, who's the lynchpin of the Metaverse). And whenever this happens, the previous timeline/incarnation of the Metaverse gets preserved on a parallel earth. This was the birth of the Multiverse.

When Barry was struck by lightning and the Speed Force was born, that was apparently the first big shift in the Metaverse. The previous incarnation of the Metaverse (i.e. the Golden Age) was preserved on a parallel earth that came to be known as Earth 2, while the Metaverse itself was now home to the Silver Age DCU (aka Earth 1). (Personally, I still believe Krona's experiment also played a role in the creation of the Multiverse, but I'm not sure where this fits in with the Doomsday Clock reveals...maybe the Multiverse always existed but the first change in the Metaverse is what created Earth 2 which then got added to this Multiverse).

Essentially, two things happen here in parallel, one concerning space and the other concerning time. When the Golden Age DC morphs into the Silver Age DC, that's a change concerning time (a timeline where Alan Scott is GL and Superman started in 1938 is replaced by a timeline where Hal Jordan is GL and Superman started in 1956). But in parallel, a new earth is created in the Multiverse that's based on the Golden Age DC, and that's a change concerning space.

What this means is that back in the Silver Age, Barry could travel across a vibrational barrier in space and visit Jay on Earth 2. But if Barry was aware of Hypertime back then, it might have been possible for him to travel to a previous timeline of what he knew as Earth 1 where he would also meet a version of Jay.

I think this distinction also explains away a lot of minor differences between the actual Golden Age as published and Earth 2. Because the Golden Age as published occurred in the Metaverse, while Earth 2 is a parallel earth that represents (with maybe 99.9% accuracy) the previous incarnation of the Metaverse. So this maybe explains stuff like how the Golden Age Superman was working in the Daily Planet under Perry White during most of the 40's, while the Earth 2 Superman always worked in the Daily Star under George Taylor.

Now when COIE happened, the Multiverse was destroyed (or rather, a few remaining earths were collapsed into the one remaining earth). The creation of this new merged earth was another big shift to the Metaverse. So, as usual, a parallel earth was created which reflected the previous era of the Metaverse. But since the local Multiverse was destroyed, Earth 1985 probably only existed somewhere further out, in the larger Omniverse. At the same timeline, the Silver Age/Bronze Age DCU continued to be one of the many alternate/past timelines of the Metaverse/Post-COIE earth - as reflected by Superman v2 # 200 where the classic Superman origin appears as one of Superman's possible histories, alongside the Byrne/MOS and Birthright versions. So that's Hypertime in play. And later, during IC, Alex Luthor's tuning fork machine is able to temporarily resurrect the Multiverse by tapping into the Post-COIE earth because traces of other realities (either other timelines of the Metaverse or remnants of destroyed Multiverse earths) lie dormant in the Metaverse through Hypertime. This explains why earths featuring the DKR universe or Kingdom Come were among those created. This also explains the new Multiverse that is born after 52 and how Mr. Mind's intervention changes the history of each earth.

The basic idea is that the Multiverse is concerned with space and Hypertime is concerned with, well, time. The Hypertime exists independent of the Multiverse...it exists whether there is a Multiverse or isn't one. But they are in a sense intertwined. Because the Multiverse contains earths derived from Hypertime (either past incarnations of the Metaverse, or alternate timelines). In fact, Hypertime can be tapped to create a new Multiverse. And even if the Multiverse is destroyed, you can find some version of those lost realities in Hypertime, because in a sense they all came from Hypertime.

And now my head hurts!

I think this is a very good way to look at it and gels with what we saw in Doomsday Clock (and, in a way, Convergence): OG version is "saved" in Hypertime and a "physical" version is placed within the omniverse. So someone could tap into Hypertime on Meta Earth and rewind things enough to see the OG New 52 OR they could travel through the omniverse to find a multiverse that represents the New 52 that is nearly identical but continued on without the events of Rebirth (or a version that never had Convergence, even).

What I'd like to understand is how did Titans of Tomorrow interact with Earth 0 during Tim's fight with Savior? Are Hypertime "universes" dynamic in that they can interact with the universes they are tethered to? Or do they become static once they are "discarded" into Hypertime? If the latter, would the in-story explanation for the Titans of Tomorrow suddenly becoming "awake" being that Jor El kidnapped their Tim and "activated" that timeline? In a similar vein, how did that Lex from a possible future travel back to main Earth in AC #1000 and convince Lex to break bad again? Is this all evidence that Hypertime realities are possible futures that stay "in play" perpetually?

[Dataweaver]

The space-time duality is something else that I saw when Doomsday Clock finished up. Basically, Krona is the Space-like explanation of what happened; and Barry creating the Speed Force is the Time-like explanation. Both are true, bit in slightly different ways.