Are Earths 1985 and 52 still around?

[bat39]

Exactly. Johns had not only crafted a story in Doomsday Clock that managed to redeem Dr. Manhattan, he also solved the continuity problems that have plagued the company since 1986. Best of all, he beautifully established that Superman is the true heart of the DCU and that everything starts with him.

Once the WB leadership behind Johns and Rebirth were gone, the old guard returned and Doomsday Clock was repeatedly delayed to make room for the "visions" of Snyder, King, and Bendis. It looks like Dark Crisis and Flashpoint Beyond may fix this.

I think when it comes to how to handle past continuity there's been two schools of thought that have been in near-constant conflict for the past several decades (or even earlier). There's the school of thought which treats every era/version of the character as a distinct continuity/universe/timeline. This was how the original Multiverse concept worked before COIE, and its the philosophy reflected in something like Convergence. And then there's the school of thought that these are all the same characters they've always been, this is the same universe all the way back to stories published in 1938, and they've all just been rebooted or subject to some kind of reality/time manipulation...but in fact ''everything happened''. This was the philosophy behind DC Rebirth and Death Metal. What makes things even more confusing is that often the two schools of thought co-exist at DC at the same time!

The beauty of Doomsday Clock's explanation was that it took the messy co-existence of these two schools of thought at face value, and found a way to make it work. So this is the same universe all the way back to Action Comics # 1. But everytime the universe got rebooted, a 'backup' of it was created preserving that era/continuity, so it was still out there and continued to exist as a separate entity. It allows DC to have their cake and eat it too. The current Superman can be the same guy from 1938 lifting that green car. But you've also explained how the Earth 2 Superman could be a different person, and how the New 52 Superman could theoretically still be out there.

[All Star Superman]

I think when it comes to how to handle past continuity there's been two schools of thought that have been in near-constant conflict for the past several decades (or even earlier). There's the school of thought which treats every era/version of the character as a distinct continuity/universe/timeline. This was how the original Multiverse concept worked before COIE, and its the philosophy reflected in something like Convergence. And then there's the school of thought that these are all the same characters they've always been, this is the same universe all the way back to stories published in 1938, and they've all just been rebooted or subject to some kind of reality/time manipulation...but in fact ''everything happened''. This was the philosophy behind DC Rebirth and Death Metal. What makes things even more confusing is that often the two schools of thought co-exist at DC at the same time!

The beauty of Doomsday Clock's explanation was that it took the messy co-existence of these two schools of thought at face value, and found a way to make it work. So this is the same universe all the way back to Action Comics # 1. But everytime the universe got rebooted, a 'backup' of it was created preserving that era/continuity, so it was still out there and continued to exist as a separate entity. It allows DC to have their cake and eat it too. The current Superman can be the same guy from 1938 lifting that green car. But you've also explained how the Earth 2 Superman could be a different person, and how the New 52 Superman could theoretically still be out there.

It was genius but sadly, Dan DiDio's return gutted it before the series could even be completed. Many suggest that the delays were due to Gary Frank's intricate artwork, but it's clear that DiDio's return was the biggest reason. This is most evident in Doomsday Clock #12's reference to 5G. I hope that Johns will be the guiding force behind rehabilitating the comics like he was from 2016-2018.

[superduperman]

I just feel like all these Infinite Metal Crisis' are completely unnecessary. How hard is it to bring back an infinite multiverse? One where we can have a Golden Age Earth, a Silver Age Earth, a Bronze Age Earth, Post-Crisis Earth or whatever you want. Where all your favorite stories still happened. It seems like we've had three years of just trying to "fix" the multiverse.

[wonder39]

I just feel like all these Infinite Metal Crisis' are completely unnecessary. How hard is it to bring back an infinite multiverse? One where we can have a Golden Age Earth, a Silver Age Earth, a Bronze Age Earth, Post-Crisis Earth or whatever you want. Where all your favorite stories still happened. It seems like we've had three years of just trying to "fix" the multiverse.

It's because they are unnecessary. And it isceasy to return a cohesive Multiverse. They already did ( see my above post) They just can't leave well enough alone.

I complained about Dark Crisis! When it was first announced, Becaause DC was messing with continuity/ the Multiverse yet again. And people were like " no, it's different, it's just a story and is self contained..." blah blah blah. Oh look! It exactly what i thought It was going to be.... * groan*

[bat39]

I just feel like all these Infinite Metal Crisis' are completely unnecessary. How hard is it to bring back an infinite multiverse? One where we can have a Golden Age Earth, a Silver Age Earth, a Bronze Age Earth, Post-Crisis Earth or whatever you want. Where all your favorite stories still happened. It seems like we've had three years of just trying to "fix" the multiverse.

I think it all comes down to wanting to define the 'main' universe and the 'main' versions of these characters.

Back in 2011, if they wanted the classic status quo of a single Superman, it wasn't enough to just establish that maybe the Silver Age Earth was still out there, or that there's this brand-new earth with a new single Superman. No, they had to reboot the current 'main' earth and literally wipe the marriage from existence to show that the 'main' Superman was single (funnily enough, a few years later, they did give us back the married Superman and Lois as alternate universe versions, but eventually they had to fold those into the 'main' universe as well!)

Its the kind of thinking that led to the creation of a single earth in COIE. I really don't think it was 'confusion' over multiple earths. It was really the idea of having one 'main' earth and one 'main' Superman - and it was difficult to have that when you had Earth Two that was supposed to actually represent the 'original' DCU and thus 'challenged' (or so they probably thought) the status of Earth One.

[Lee]

Its the kind of thinking that led to the creation of a single earth in COIE. I really don't think it was 'confusion' over multiple earths. It was really the idea of having one 'main' earth and one 'main' Superman - and it was difficult to have that when you had Earth Two that was supposed to actually represent the 'original' DCU and thus 'challenged' (or so they probably thought) the status of Earth One.

I've never seen anything like this suggested in any interviews about Crisis on Infinite Earths.

[Dataweaver]

When I read Doomsday Clock #12, I immediately recognized what I was seeing as Hypertime. Here's how I understand it:

The following worlds, and more, do indeed exist; but in Hypertime, not necessarily in the Omniverse:

Earth-2
Earth-1985
Watchmen
Kingdom Come
Flashpoint
Earth-52
Future State

In fact, everything that has ever been published exists somewhere in Hypertime; and the Omniverse includes copies of many of those worlds. Which ones exist in the Omniverse depends on the contemporary state of the Omniverse:

When the Metaverse was in its Golden Age iteration, the Omniverse was otherwise empty; when it was in its Silver and Bronze Age iterations, the Omniverse contained the Infinite Earths, including a copy of Hypertime's Earth 2. In the post-Crisis era, the Infinite Earths were dead, and the only thing “alive” in the Omniverse was the Metaverse. During Infinite Crisis, Alex tapped into Hypertime and created copies of many of its worlds (including Kingdom Come), which ultimately resulted in the post-IC Omniverse containing the Orrery of Worlds. That continued up until Metal, which retroactively added the Dark Multiverse to the mix; and Death Metal, which destroyed the Orrery but then revived it along with a handful of additional worlds. And now, Dark Crisis has revived the Infinite Earths.

Elaborating on this a bit: I disagree slightly with Johns' picture of the Divine Continuum as having two branches: Space (the Omniverse) and Time (Hypertime). Instead, I view Hypertime as the fundamental structure of the Divine Continuum, with a “central timeline” centered on the Metaverse but containing the entire Omniverse, and hypertimelines branching off of it. But then, every hypertimeline centers on a Metaverse and contains an Omniverse.

[D.Z]

Have to see what the Blue Shift can do, which is the Ominverse coming in contact with hypertime. Space and time are together but they're also separate functions.

[Dataweaver]

Agreed. In my view, Blueshift Energy is something that's been hinted at before: when people from the central timeline interact with other timelines, bad things tend to happen. Not always, mind you; Superboy didn't have any problem like this during Hypertension. But at the end of the Dark Flash story, which was happening around the same time, Walter West was forced to return to his own timeline because he was told that his presence was hurting the timeline. I wouldn't be surprised if that's retroactively associated with Blueshift Energy.

[D.Z]

Still remains to see if Blue Energy is what Dr.M used to change history. And Hypertime hiting the Meta Earth into spawning more Multiverse Earths.


I remember Kara having to go back to Hypertime to fix things.

And the story with Batman and Hypertime ghosts.

[superduperman]

When I read Doomsday Clock #12, I immediately recognized what I was seeing as Hypertime. Here's how I understand it:

The following worlds, and more, do indeed exist; but in Hypertime, not necessarily in the Omniverse:

Earth-2
Earth-1985
Watchmen
Kingdom Come
Flashpoint
Earth-52
Future State

In fact, everything that has ever been published exists somewhere in Hypertime; and the Omniverse includes copies of many of those worlds. Which ones exist in the Omniverse depends on the contemporary state of the Omniverse:

When the Metaverse was in its Golden Age iteration, the Omniverse was otherwise empty; when it was in its Silver and Bronze Age iterations, the Omniverse contained the Infinite Earths, including a copy of Hypertime's Earth 2. In the post-Crisis era, the Infinite Earths were dead, and the only thing “alive” in the Omniverse was the Metaverse. During Infinite Crisis, Alex tapped into Hypertime and created copies of many of its worlds (including Kingdom Come), which ultimately resulted in the post-IC Omniverse containing the Orrery of Worlds. That continued up until Metal, which retroactively added the Dark Multiverse to the mix; and Death Metal, which destroyed the Orrery but then revived it along with a handful of additional worlds. And now, Dark Crisis has revived the Infinite Earths.

Elaborating on this a bit: I disagree slightly with Johns' picture of the Divine Continuum as having two branches: Space (the Omniverse) and Time (Hypertime). Instead, I view Hypertime as the fundamental structure of the Divine Continuum, with a “central timeline” centered on the Metaverse but containing the entire Omniverse, and hypertimelines branching off of it. But then, every hypertimeline centers on a Metaverse and contains an Omniverse.

My understanding of Hypertime was that "it's the multiverse but editorial won't let us call it that". At least that's the impression I got from the original 1998-99 introduction of it. Particularly the Superboy storyline where they used it and he met his SA counterpart.

[D.Z]

Hypertime was collection of timelines, that can also cross over and merge and go back to main Earth at the time.

[Dataweaver]

In part, yes. But Hypertime is more than just that. One of its more controversial features was that it provided for a means of altering continuity to reintroduce elements that had been written out of it. In theory, at least. In practice, that feature was never used before video decided to shelve the concept; so any rules or guidelines for how such things might work or never worked out.

[D.Z]

Thats why I said manage to go back to main Earth above.

[Dataweaver]

I was replying to superduperman.

For what it's worth, Flashpoint Beyond looks like it may be starting to lay out some of those ground rules that I was referring to.

And the first of those ground rules is that nothing “just happens”. Any splits or merges that take place are intentional, the results of someone's decision. They never happen at random, spontaneously.