Phony Connections: What Relationships Ring False in DC?

[Frontier]

I don't know about others but I'm judging him based on RHATO, UTRH, B&R, BFTC, Brothers in Blood etc Jason has done his father and brothers wrong in many titles and many story arcs and is yet to show any remorse.


The fact that Bruce would say to him that it's fine if he kills so long as he keeps it out of Gotham. That kind of writing does break the Batman mythos. That wasn't from any of the titles you mentioned. That was from Jason's last ongoing.

Jason attacking Tim at Titans Towers, threatening to kill innocent teens that never did a thing to him simply because they are associated to one of his brothers. Those aren't from the stories you mentioned and those are some of the reasons why i don't think his brother will be cool with him.

There are killers in the Batfamily and 4 out of the 5 Robins has killed [has Steph killed?] but the difference is that with the others they seem conflicted and have tried to redeem themselves. Jason doesn't seem to be against killing and doesn't like Batman's methods.

He doesn't seem remorseful for his past transgressions either.

Batwoman killed and she got banished.
Damian kills and he got abandoned by every hero in Gotham [according to the solicits for batman v Robin] Jason kills and he gets batman's endorsement and everyone including his victims act like it never happened.

I just don't don't think they'll be that cool with him. the writers haven't earned the dynamic they are trying to sell us.

There's a large chunk of the relationships healing and working through stuff that they forgot to write.

I remember moments of Jason being a loyal brother and trying to do better.

Catwoman, I can understand (although I have mixed feelings about it), since at her worst, she never went as far as Talia and Ras.

Bruce never liked Steph, so he would probably be harsh on her. I also can't imagine Steph doing the thing Jason or Damian have done.

Bruce welcoming Jason back wasn't phoney. It makes sense based on what we've seen from Bruce.

I don't think it's fair to say Bruce never liked Steph. He didn't appreciate her or value her as much as he did Tim or his main protege's, but I think a part of him responded well to who she was and her dedication/perservearance.

[king81992]

I wholeheartedly agree. However...

Talking about Double standards.

Jason died once under Bruce's watch and you call it guilt.


Damian dies multiple times under Bruce's watch while saving the world and you call it getting a free pass.

The 2nd Time Damian gave his life, Bruce was literally a few steps away arguing with Talia [talk about letting your kid die]

I never said Damian dying on Bruce's watch was a free pass. Damian got a free pass for some of the sketchier things he's done from Batman. Damian's multiple deaths under Bruce's care are an indictment on Batman.

Batman did feel guilt over Jason's death and it comes across as he tolerates Jason's tendency to kill because of that guilt.

[Frontier]

I never said Damian dying on Bruce's watch was a free pass. Damian got a free pass for some of the sketchier things he's done from Batman. Damian's multiple deaths under Bruce's care are an indictment on Batman.

Batman did feel guilt over Jason's death and it comes across as he tolerates Jason's tendency to kill because of that guilt.

But Jason's stopped killing though. More or less. Depending on the issue .

[Fergus]

I never said Damian dying on Bruce's watch was a free pass. Damian got a free pass for some of the sketchier things he's done from Batman. Damian's multiple deaths under Bruce's care are an indictment on Batman.

Batman did feel guilt over Jason's death and it comes across as he tolerates Jason's tendency to kill because of that guilt.

Sorry I worded that wrong. What I meant was that the behaviour you excuse as leniency due to guilt is the same behaviour you term as a free pass.

Can you say that Bruce's handling of Damian's sketchier antics isn't due to leniency brought on by guilt at his deaths while in his care as well as Bruce's hypocrisy?

It makes sense based on what we've seen from Bruce's treatment of Jason.

@Frontier makes a very valid point. Jason has been using rubber bullets since he re-joined the Bat family. Readers tend to ignore that important bit of canon.

[Fergus]

Many people are more open and less awkward around people who aren't their own family. It's not a big deal.

True, but not that's not applicable to Dick Grayson.

That's out of character for that particular character and what we've seen in his 80+ years of publication history.

[Stanlos]

I don't know about others but I'm judging him based on RHATO, UTRH, B&R, BFTC, Brothers in Blood etc Jason has done his father and brothers wrong in many titles and many story arcs and is yet to show any remorse.


The fact that Bruce would say to him that it's fine if he kills so long as he keeps it out of Gotham. That kind of writing does break the Batman mythos. That wasn't from any of the titles you mentioned. That was from Jason's last ongoing.

Jason attacking Tim at Titans Towers, threatening to kill innocent teens that never did a thing to him simply because they are associated to one of his brothers. Those aren't from the stories you mentioned and those are some of the reasons why i don't think his brother will be cool with him.

There are killers in the Batfamily and 4 out of the 5 Robins has killed [has Steph killed?] but the difference is that with the others they seem conflicted and have tried to redeem themselves. Jason doesn't seem to be against killing and doesn't like Batman's methods.

He doesn't seem remorseful for his past transgressions either.

Batwoman killed and she got banished.
Damian kills and he got abandoned by every hero in Gotham [according to the solicits for batman v Robin] Jason kills and he gets batman's endorsement and everyone including his victims act like it never happened.

I just don't don't think they'll be that cool with him. the writers haven't earned the dynamic they are trying to sell us.

There's a large chunk of the relationships healing and working through stuff that they forgot to write.

The appeal of Jason Todd and Deathstroke are puzzling to say the least. But BA breaks me completely. He straight up killed women and, children manually with glee. An entire country's worth. If Jason and Deathstroke stoke the desire for revenge fantasy or revenge porn wtf does BA do? Who has fandom become

[king81992]

The appeal of Jason Todd and Deathstroke are puzzling to say the least. But BA breaks me completely. He straight up killed women and, children manually with glee. An entire country's worth. If Jason and Deathstroke stoke the desire for revenge fantasy or revenge porn wtf does BA do? Who has fandom become

Deathstroke's free pass comes from writers and his fanbase. Most reasonable people know he's scum and attempts to make him an antihero always feel hollow.

Most people understand the circumstances that drove Jason to be what he is.

Black Adam's push is probably tied to the upcoming movie.

[Fergus]

Bad boys and Naughty girls have always been popular for various reasons. It's nothing new.

The need to turn outright bad guys into anti heroes could due to writers attempting to add layers and fans favouring more complexity.

Popular characters have always been allowed to get away with more likewise characters undergoing a PR blitz turn up in unexpected places.

None of what's currently happening with these characters is new.

The reason why some developments/connections feel phoney is that writers aren't making the effort to make their stories gel with established history and characterisations.

[OOPS]

Oddly enough, as cynical as I am, I'm less cynical on this front. For me the message of acceptance of characters like Jason and Damian isn't hypocrisy, but forgiveness. RSOB was all about Damian seeking redemption then learning to offer forgiveness. Jason followed a similar path when he sought to be erased.

Batman has also offered a path of redemption to villains, crooks and Blackgate prison. Essentially offering justice and not just vengeance.

[witchboy]

I'm probably in the minority here but...

...Ice and Guy Gardner.

It was entertaining and unexpected but she just seemed too smart to develop feelings with someone with his personality. I could see her reaching out to him in friendship in order to help him relate to other members. But to develop any romantic feeling toward him just didn't make sense IMO.

I'm in the middle of re-reading the JL International/America/Europe era.
I think Ice is just that good hearted and sees the best in people than I can buy her feelings for him. No one else could put up with him. It helps that there's such strong relationships in the teams, friendships and antagonisms that it's just one dynamic out of many that made the series compelling.
Ice being the one person who can mostly tolerate Guy works because everyone else couldn't stand him.

[Aahz]

Damian dies multiple times under Bruce's watch while saving the world and you call it getting a free pass.

But I Damian's case him killing people pre-dates his death (Spook, Nobody) and I think Damian had only one death that Bruce knows of and where he didn't came back within the same story arc.

And in case of that Death Bruce was the one who went to apocalypse to bring him back.

[achilles]

Deathstroke's free pass comes from writers and his fanbase. Most reasonable people know he's scum and attempts to make him an antihero always feel hollow.

Most people understand the circumstances that drove Jason to be what he is.

Black Adam's push is probably tied to the upcoming movie.

Naw, it started with Johns and his unhealthy love of the bad guys, and the worse the better. Black Adam specifically. And his love of turning them into "anti-heroes", or as I call them, straight up evil mass murderers who get a pass because the writer likes that sort of thing in his fiction apparently.

[Fergus]

But I Damian's case him killing people pre-dates his death (Spook, Nobody) and I think Damian had only one death that Bruce knows of and where he didn't came back within the same story arc.

And in case of that Death Bruce was the one who went to apocalypse to bring him back.

Bruce flat out tells you in Batman and Son why he forgave/didn't view the child accountable for Damian's action/behaviour prior to bonding with him and Bruce personally working to break Damian's conditioning and LOA training.

Bruce is aware that damian has died more than once. Doesn't matter if he came back in the same story, after a year or within 1 min. It's still traumatic and impactful because he still experienced every parents greatest fear/pain.

We saw this with Dick Grayson when his heart was stopped. Tell me that Bruce still doesn't have visions of that moment or that a part of him wasn't forever altered. His face and anguished scream said it all

[redmax99]

any og titan and roy drug addiction. first let me say this i dont like how the writer try to insert people into a story where it's already establish, its the first time anyone they love found out about it. that being said, stories have showed flashbacks of wally and dick coming upon roy with a needle in his arm not to mention dick yelling about how he was the one who stayed with roy as he went through with draw.

1. they are terrible friends because roy was what 17 and on heroin and they didn't tell barry or bruce they just dog him out about it when they wanted to get on their high horse

2. from the mouth of the addict himself he said dinah and hal were the only people to help him with his addiction so his friend a narcist who want everything to be about him and yes im talking about dick

[Confuzzled]

True, but not that's not applicable to Dick Grayson.

That's out of character for that particular character and what we've seen in his 80+ years of publication history.

Since 1980, Dick has flourished better as a Teen Titans leader than a Batfamily member, coinciding with the timing of Bruce Wayne becoming increasingly miserable, lonely and depressed to morbid levels, pushing out Dick from his life and taking darker characters like Jason and later Damian under his wing.

The Robin successors not being as popular as Dick is the only reason Dick keeps getting pulled back into the Gothamverse as he will always be the most successful, accomplished son. While he's helpless to be free of the Bats on a meta level, he doesn't need to take on the mental and psychological pressure of being one of the only relatively stable members of his family on a story level when he has deeper ties outside, formed precisely because his father figure pushed him out of his life.

Also, Jon just seems like a more fun, pleasant person to be around than Jason.