Phony Connections: What Relationships Ring False in DC?

[marhawkman]

Donna's history getting fully re-written is also a thing to consider here. some version had her living as a Human in "Man's world" for enough years to have a solid understanding of it. But Donna's actual origin is drastically different in the various continuities. So the amount of time she's lived outside Themiscyra varies a lot.

[John Venus]

Just because they have a relationship with Diana doesn't mean that relationship has to be them playing second fiddle to Diana or that it's diminishing.

Diana inspiring others to be like her, especially other women, is kind of the whole point of the character.

[Tzigone]

Just because they have a relationship with Diana doesn't mean that relationship has to be them playing second fiddle to Diana or that it's diminishing.

Having a relationship doesn't mean that, no. Frequently appearing in her titles or stories - yes. Because she's the star and the other characters do whatever is needed to forward her plot needs.

Diana inspiring others to be like her, especially other women, is kind of the whole point of the character.

Inspiring them to be like her, yes, but not keeping them with her. After all, Diana left home and left her mother. She visits, but her mother and the women who inspired her, are secondary to her as the primary. They appear in her books, not her in theirs (which they don't have, generally, of course).

But, as I said, her having a close relationship with Donna doesn't fit the original backstory for Donna (admittedly even the first story doesn't sense, and it only gets worse). Sure, they could, but there's no reason they should, and they didn't, and I see no value in retconning their entire dynamic to make it happen (I don't like Alfred as Bruce's parent or Barry and Iris as parental figures for Wally, either, btw). Seeing more of Cassie and Diana is fine to a point. I'd rather see more of Diana and completely-ordinary-non-powered-Vanessa than either of those. Because that, to me, is the relationship that was real, the one isn't a "phony connection." And I like non-cape supporting casts. Golden age Etta and Steve were great too, and keeping version of them I actually like around would be wonderful.

[marhawkman]

Just because they have a relationship with Diana doesn't mean that relationship has to be them playing second fiddle to Diana or that it's diminishing.

Diana inspiring others to be like her, especially other women, is kind of the whole point of the character.

Which is why I'm baffled as to why so FEW superheroines have actually visited Themiscyra. Putting up a "no guys allowed" sign? ok, fine. But seems weird that Diana has so few visitors even outside that. :/

[mathew101281]

It's frustrating to some, I know. I'm not so big on the superhero "families" so less to me.

It's logical they aren't in both, to a degree. That would mean that one writer isn't free to use them as they like because it might interfere with the other writer's plans. They could coordinate, of course, but it still offers restrictions. It also makes sense for the Titans to "win" - they are the stars in the Titans (even if part of an ensemble), and supporting characters in WW.

I personally deeply dislike the notion of their storylines being determined by the Diana's-character-plot-needs. That's what her supporting cast (if she could ever keep a steady one) is for, certainly, but that's why I don't like them as supporting cast - I've seen them as the stars and diminishing them from having plots to forward them to having plots to forward Diana doesn't work for me. Plus, in-unvierse, it's absolutely depressing that they play hero-support or second fiddle to Diana forever. I hate that for Dick, too. It's fine while they're kids, but I want the young heroes to spread their wings and move on after they grow up. When they are part of the "family", they must remain subordinate to WW (or Batman for Dick) in all events and end up following their lead, never shining as brightly, etc. Probably doesn't hurt that I like Donna, Dick, and Cassie better than Bruce and Diana (especially Bruce).

This whole, let the Wondergirls develop separately from Diana is interesting in theory, but in reality that isn’t what is happening. They are treated like 2nd fiddles in the Titan books to. Wonder girl was they only Titans character not to show up in the cartoon, it took Young Justice several seasons to introduce them, this kind of stuff doesn’t happen to the Robins, Batgirls, Supergirls and Aqualads. In short what I’m saying is that Wonderwoman probably needs a 2nd book that focuses on her relationships with the characters adjacent to her, and the Wondergirls need to do split duty like the other junior heroes, it offers them exposure and relationship potential that they can’t get from being a small part of the Titans.

[JThree]

Donna should be Diana's adopted little sister as it were. Hated it when she was remade into Troia, though I never actually picked up the series. Just hate the revisionism, it means family doesn't remember family. And somebody in editorial saying, "well, it never happened now." didn't sit right with me.

--jthree

[king81992]

This whole, let the Wondergirls develop separately from Diana is interesting in theory, but in reality that isn’t what is happening. They are treated like 2nd fiddles in the Titan books to. Wonder girl was they only Titans character not to show up in the cartoon, it took Young Justice several seasons to introduce them, this kind of stuff doesn’t happen to the Robins, Batgirls, Supergirls and Aqualads. In short what I’m saying is that Wonderwoman probably needs a 2nd book that focuses on her relationships with the characters adjacent to her, and the Wondergirls need to do split duty like the other junior heroes, it offers them exposure and relationship potential that they can’t get from being a small part of the Titans.

I don't think Donna was second fiddle during her times with the Titans(not counting the recent series, where the whole team is second fiddle in their own book and in universe).

She didn't show up in the old cartoon because there were rights issues at the time.

Cassie did lead the Titans, but her time as leader was a disaster with characters getting killed off left and right.

In the Young Justice cartoon, Cassie is a victim of the series having way too many characters and not enough screentime/ episodes to use them all.

[Frontier]

Having a relationship doesn't mean that, no. Frequently appearing in her titles or stories - yes. Because she's the star and the other characters do whatever is needed to forward her plot needs.

Inspiring them to be like her, yes, but not keeping them with her. After all, Diana left home and left her mother. She visits, but her mother and the women who inspired her, are secondary to her as the primary. They appear in her books, not her in theirs (which they don't have, generally, of course).

But, as I said, her having a close relationship with Donna doesn't fit the original backstory for Donna (admittedly even the first story doesn't sense, and it only gets worse). Sure, they could, but there's no reason they should, and they didn't, and I see no value in retconning their entire dynamic to make it happen (I don't like Alfred as Bruce's parent or Barry and Iris as parental figures for Wally, either, btw). Seeing more of Cassie and Diana is fine to a point. I'd rather see more of Diana and completely-ordinary-non-powered-Vanessa than either of those. Because that, to me, is the relationship that was real, the one isn't a "phony connection." And I like non-cape supporting casts. Golden age Etta and Steve were great too, and keeping version of them I actually like around would be wonderful.

I think the genie is kind of out of the bottle on that because, whatever is on the page, most people are going to associate the two because Donna (and Cassie) are attached to Diana and the WW through their Wonder Girl identity and most of the major DC franchise has supporting heroes along with civilians in their cast and I don't see it as a big loss to associate them together.

I also don't see why Diana can't have sidekicks like the other major heroes do.

[Thomas Crown]

Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy.

Tim Drake and Bernard.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Jason Todd and the bat family as a whole, but specially Bruce: the idea that one could support a bay on their chest and go around shooting people and still get invited to family meetings instead of being hunted and thrown in Arkham just breaks the franchise in half.

On the same hand, Jason Todd and both Roy and Kory. Never made sense, never will.

Wallace "Ace" West and Barry Allen, for some reason I can't put my finger on. Both work great with any other character in the franchise, yet together they just don't gel.

Deathstroke working together with any other villain for any reason that's not money.

Hal Jordan and any character. Maybe not Sinestro, that seems sincere. But Hal Jordan and any other character, for sure.

[Tzigone]

On the same hand, Jason Todd and both Roy and Kory. Never made sense, never will.

Agreed. There was no reason to give Jason (or Tim or Damian) Dick's hand-me-down friends/teammates (hate how Raven and Gar keep getting de-aged). And Tim and Damian already had suitable rosters of their own peers in the community, for crying out loud.

[king81992]

Jason Todd and the bat family as a whole, but specially Bruce: the idea that one could support a bay on their chest and go around shooting people and still get invited to family meetings instead of being hunted and thrown in Arkham just breaks the franchise in half.

On the same hand, Jason Todd and both Roy and Kory. Never made sense, never will.

Wallace "Ace" West and Barry Allen, for some reason I can't put my finger on. Both work great with any other character in the franchise, yet together they just don't gel.

Deathstroke working together with any other villain for any reason that's not money.

Hal Jordan and any character. Maybe not Sinestro, that seems sincere. But Hal Jordan and any other character, for sure.

I'd argue that Jason being tolerated by Bruce despite his methods is a result of Bruce's guilt over failing to protect him from the Joker. The more cynical part of me feels like its another example of Bruce's double standards and hypocrisy.

[Frontier]

Jason Todd and the bat family as a whole, but specially Bruce: the idea that one could support a bay on their chest and go around shooting people and still get invited to family meetings instead of being hunted and thrown in Arkham just breaks the franchise in half.

Jason's had a lot of character development. I think people judge him a little too much by just UTRH and Morrison's Batman and Robin.

Wallace "Ace" West and Barry Allen, for some reason I can't put my finger on. Both work great with any other character in the franchise, yet together they just don't gel.

The problem with Barry and Wallace is Barry expected Wallace to be Wally and Wallace piled on all his anger and resentment over his dad abandoning him on Barry.

Hal Jordan and any character. Maybe not Sinestro, that seems sincere. But Hal Jordan and any other character, for sure.

I would say John Stewart and any characters more associated with Hal.

Like, John and Barry really doesn't need to be a thing. It was bad enough that Barry and Jessica Cruz almost 98% hooked up.

And there was that time Kyle Rayner and Carol Ferris hooked up. What was that even about?

[Restingvoice]

For me, it's gotta be Steph and Tim. I like that one detective dude or whoever she was flirting with in Bryan Q. Miller's run back in the day. Tim's just too much of a dork for her.

He's like 30

[thefinalguy]

I don't think Diana not being there equals Diana "abandoning" Donna. Sure, Diana would come if Donna called and needed help, but if she didn't, she didn't. There's not much indication of Donna needing "guiding." Even when Donna went to man's world as a teenager, it was an exciting adventure for her. It's like a high-schooler on road trip with friends - don't want adults around.

Donna was seemingly living with her mother Hippolyta until 1969 (the year she and Dick turned 18), as far I can tell from issue 22. She had her "transformation" to adulthood (as did all the then Teen Titans), and thereafter acted an adult. She'd spent a couple years hanging out frequently in man's world then, and it no longer seemed "foreign" to her. So, in short, yes, I think Diana would have made herself available if Donna needed her, but I don't think Donna was ever shown needing her or there was any reason the two would choose to be close or spend significant time together, given the way they were depicted in the silver and bronze ages. I also think if Donna did need someone, it would far more likely and reasonably be Hippolyta or one of her fellow Titans than Diana.

There is some story potential in Diana and Donna navigating a sister relationship despite being years apart. But, stuff like that wasn't afforded to us in the silver and bronze age.

Where are you getting NYU from? It's been a while since I read, but I recall that Donna immediately became a professional photographer and never attended college (at least pre-COIE). And, no, so far as I can recall, she's never attended any type of school in Man's world, pre-COIE.

For some reason, I keep thinking Donna was in school, but she had a job and that was it. And, if she was never in school ever I assume she would've traveled back and forth from Themyscira when she wasn't hanging out with the Titans. But, again context the stories at the time didn't afford us.

This whole, let the Wondergirls develop separately from Diana is interesting in theory, but in reality that isn’t what is happening. They are treated like 2nd fiddles in the Titan books to. Wonder girl was they only Titans character not to show up in the cartoon, it took Young Justice several seasons to introduce them, this kind of stuff doesn’t happen to the Robins, Batgirls, Supergirls and Aqualads. In short what I’m saying is that Wonderwoman probably needs a 2nd book that focuses on her relationships with the characters adjacent to her, and the Wondergirls need to do split duty like the other junior heroes, it offers them exposure and relationship potential that they can’t get from being a small part of the Titans.

Donna and Cassie had a fairly significant spotlight in the NTT, YJ, Titans, and TT books. If anything they are nothing to Diana currently which is a bit of an issue. Why Sensation Comics isn't the WonderFam book I won't understand.

And, there were legal issues holding back Donna from being in Teen Titans and the first season of Young Justice. What they were I'm not sure, I do know Donna had a design for a DCAU-set Titans series. Although, most of this is common knowledge.

Young Justice has put both of them on the backburner and we rarely see them interact with Diana, Cassie being even worse. Post-N52 severed all ties between the Wonder Girls and it hasn't grown back.